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Yeah, I'm wondering if there's ever a point to them tactically. Fluff-wise I can see their worth, but in game they appear just sorta... lack-luster to me.

For instance, take the Wyvern: It's a 200pt upgrade for a three attack flying mount. The Mount has some tolerable attacks (WS5, S6, Poisoned), and is Terror-Causing. However, it's a large target. Unless your army is sporting a Giant or two as well, it'll probably be the sole target of war machines: Being only T5, it will not take much for War Machines (or even S4 Crossbows / Rifles, let alone S6 Jezzails) to turn it into a pin cushion. Getting stuck in is an option... but the quicker you do that, the quicker you deprive your army of its much needed general's leadership (being a MM you can only take at 2K+ point games, and there if carrying a Lord you give up your Ld. 9 and sacrifice any Trolls, Goblins, or other low-leadership units you may have had in your army). Worse, in combat it isn't enough to break a unit on a front-charge on its own: With only 7 attacks including rider and mount, unless you're packing something like the Pig Stikka or a lucky Screamin' Sword you'll never win a combat outside flanking or extremely good rolling. This means it'll take at least two turns of enemy shooting / magic to get stuck in: If your priority two to move behind the lines and one to charge, if their priority one to move behind and then wait for your second turn to get the charge.

The Giant Cave Squig is another questionable mount: 50pts for a character on a T4 mount which doesn't give it's Ld 6 Rider Immune to Psychology. Since it follows all normal charge rules, when going out on its own the rider needs to charge a fear / terror causing unit on Ld 6. It can only move anywhere from 18... to 3 inches in a single turn. With no save of any sort for the T4 W3 mount, no sort of psychological buff, and only 3 S5 attacks (with no special rules!) gained for such, why would one bother to take the Giant Cave Squig?

The Giant Spider mount is the only one I can see that has any sort of value. Though just as durable as a GCS, it is able to join units. With Ld. 7, it actually has a chance to stay should its rider meet an unfortunate fate. It comes with only 3 Poisoned Attacks that are S4 (and WS3, so worse than a Wyvern), but joining in a unit this is not much a concern. It is only M7 (thus theoretically the "slowest" of the max-moves), but just like the Squig it may run through terrain without penalty. Lastly, it is the "cheapest" of all Monstrous Mounts being only 40pts (or in many cases cheaper than the rider).

The question stands: Are GCS's or Wyverns worth their purchasing, or is the GS the only choice worth considering in the current Army Book when playing anything short of a 3K+ Point Game?

the GS isn't something you would want IMO.
the only unit it would be able to use its abillitis in is the spider riders and those are units that you shouldn't be afraid of losing.

To be perfectly honest on your evalutation of the wyvern, monstrous mounts aren't supposed to fight units in the front. They should always go for the side or the rear.

Mekboy wrote:To be perfectly honest on your evalutation of the wyvern, monstrous mounts aren't supposed to fight units in the front. They should always go for the side or the rear.

I recognize this, though the problem posed still stands: To get into the flank or rear the Wyvern has to go through at least two other turns of shooting and magic, unless you have a Goblin Shaman lucky enough to both have Hand of Gork & not Animositied this turn, or an Orc Shaman with Waaagh! and have rolled Irresistable Force (since almost every player I've seen who has fought O&G is smart enough to keep a Scroll around to boot a Waaagh! should it be rolled & casted). While your rider up top can ignore most of the shooting (be it through a 3+ / 5+ save, a Talisman of Protectyness, only 1-in-3 shots hitting them, etc), the T5 4+ Save Monster usually can't stomach the firepower unless you have other choice targets (such as a Giant or two) presented, the Wyverns themselves were taken in pairs, or you're lucky enough to be facing a True-Khorne Army with neither magic nor shooting.

One can delay the flying over into enemy lines to force firing at longer range, but you still will become a pincushion unless you use something to take out the War Machines (which, outside the flier, you're practically limited to good Stone Thrower work or getting off some Foot of Gorks / Gork's Warpaths) and the regular shooty units as you set up for the Flank. There's the option of running the Wyvern along your armies flank (which forces units in the enemy formation to reallign), but then you're still depriving your army of its leadership.

The Wyvern Rider has to choose between keeping himself alive, or supporting his army by the way I'm looking at it. Or is there something big I'm missing, a tactic that should be obvious?

The Giant Cave Squig can be made use of (I hope) with the right combination of weapons and talismans. Giving the rider Porko's Pigstikka gives him up to 3 extra attacks (1 per rank, or is it file). There is some sword that has an attack bonus, but I can't remember the name. I don't have my rule book in front of me.

I plan to use him as a supporting character for units that are getting into trouble, or as a behind-enemy-lines hunter. So far as I can tell, though, that's a bit risky. If the boing rule backfires. That's part of the O&G army though, things backfire all the time. Just pray to Gork... or Mork there are enough boyz left to get the job down or enough goblins to regroup for a grudge match ;P


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Not that I want to encourage prayer

The giant cave squig is immune to psychology, so It passes that on to its rider. From what I've read, the best use for it is too give the rider wollopa's one hit wunda and the brimstone bauble, then use it to take down other monstrous creatures. Plus the model is cool

Yeah, that Brimstone Bauble is a doosy.

Kra_Z wrote:The giant cave squig is immune to psychology,

... Well, this is grand. Check your O&G army book: There are no less than three separate "Special Rules" sets for the Great Cave Squig. The original on page 26 does indeed include Immune to Psychology and Skirmish. However, page 50 includes just "May not join units; Hate Dwarfs, Boiiing!". Not so bad, but then check page 58: The GCS has only two special rules: May not join units, and Boiiing!

I would ignore the reference sheet. games workshop has gotten other reference sheets wrong before, such as the one in the rule book that comes with assault on black reach. As for whats on page 50...... uhhhh misprint?....... sounds like something needs to be added to the errata. Anyway if you are going to use it just agree on the rules with your opponent first.

I am running a Goblin war boss in a wolf chariot. With one of two different sets of equipment.

I run the first with One hit Wonda and the brimstone Bauble, and a great weapon, this gives you the impact hits, then the 4 attacks at str 6, and if it is killed then the bauble kicks in and does even more wounds.

Or The chariot with a Great Axe, The Amulet of Proctectiness, and the tricksy Trinket. This set up works great against Daemons.

I don't think you can buy a Great Weapon and a One Hit Wunda at the same time. Chariot-mounted bosses are also only +1 Strength from a Great Weapon, in which case I'd suggest something like the Best Basha for the +1WS and I or the Akrit Axe to re-roll failed to hit dice.

Protectyness / Trinket does work good against Daemons (5+ Ward for 5pts less, ignore their Ward with Impact Hits, etc), but this (and the above) tactic are with chariots that are noticeably effective / worthwhile at times.

Yes that is correct the Great Axe cannot be taken with the One Hit Wonda, I got a little ahead of myself, the second option is the only one I use with the Great Axe. Still both are dangerous options.

With the the second option I was able to flank a unit of Warriors with the MoT and break them. They were unable to wound due to the Amulet and did not get their Ward due to the Trinket! Was a great moment!

Just remember that it gives the wearer the wounding model's saves, not the model like the Tricksy Trinket (Protectyness only aids rider / hero, Trinket harms everything BtB with model). 3+ Save w/ 6+ Ward against attacks hitting and wounding on 4's is great though

The wyvern is a black orc general with Shaggas screaming sword delivery system.

Hide behing edge of hill, WAAAGH! onto hill, charge into centre of enemy army with 4 characters within 12 = awesome.... Or as everyone does, put it into a flank.

But you are right in that it is overpriced for its stats.

Also the giant squigs needs to be W1 so that it cannot be shot out from under the NG boss....