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Ok so not sure if how practical this is, but I'm just trying to find fun things to do with Piranhas. Ok so here is my question. I have 5 Piranha squad on the board all with flechette dischargers. The squad gets charged by 12 Orks. The Orks can only reach 1 of the Piranhas in the squad. So I know the one that got charged gets to roll 12 dice for the flechettes, but since the entire squadron is technically getting assaulted do the other 4 also get their flechettes giving me effectively 60 dice wounding on a 4+?

Rules in question: Tau flechette discharger p30 "Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a 4+ before resolving its attacks"

BRB p64: "When engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and armour penetration against the squadron as a whole"

You are correct. Each one fires it's flechette discharges. It's a great strategy that has turned the tide of many a battle for me.

... all of them fire off by the my reading ...

The only other option is if models charge the vehicle that it fires off.

Haha...

This reminds me of last weekend where a local Daemons player was complaining about having wounds taken off his 'Thirster after attacking a Hammerhead with Flechettes.

Saldiven wrote:Haha...

This reminds me of last weekend where a local Daemons player was complaining about having wounds taken off his 'Thirster after attacking a Hammerhead with Flechettes.

Nice. My broadside put 2 wounds on a greater daemon once; just goes to show that poor rolling (usually on my side but not in this case) trumps all. :-)

page 80 of the INAT FAQ covers them, iirc

Sweet thanks all that is what I thought I was just looking for clarification.

You should already realize this is an issue by your superb knowledge of picking which exact lines to quote. Popular RAW interpretation, including a poll on Dakka, is that the flechette dischargers will all launch if a member of the squadron comes under attack.

INAT FAQs have ruled against this IIRC. As i see it, RAI they wouldn't all launch, the rule just gets a bonus from the 5th edition squadron RAW. You will need to clarify how they're going to operate with your opponent before the game. A lot of clubs/tournaments use the INAT FAQs, in all respects. Saying everyone plays by the RAW for flechette dischargers, which isn't true, won't fly.

I think we should be careful about assuming what can happen when a codex doesn't explain everything. Just because the Tau codex doesn't say we don't reference vehicle squadron assault rules doesn't mean they automatically apply to Flechette Dischargers.

I see it as another case of codex trumps rulebook. While at first glance, no, the Discharger rules don't seem to hold any sway over rulebook squadrons, in fact all that you need is right there in the codex:

Tau Codex, p30 wrote:Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+, with saves allowed, before resolving its attacks.

In cases of codex > rulebook, we accept that because the codex rules state "model" (singular) and "vehicle" (singular), it is impossible for a Flechette to resolve attacks against models that are not locked in combat with that specific vehicle.

Yes, that is not how assaulting vehicle squadrons works. But a Flechette getting attacks on models not actually locked in combat with its vehicle goes against the codex ruling. That much is true, because the rules only specify singular vehicles, which vehicles still are even in a squadron.

To OP: if you try and play with those people's weird RAW loophole interpretation, you won't make yourself any friends (and you may lose all your Ork friends!). I'm not saying it wouldn't hold up in something like Ard Boyz, but if you were to go onto ATT and bring this subject up I can almost guarantee you that most Tau players will agree with me. Let the Greater Good triumph here!

Or to rephrase my previous answer: INAT has an answer. The rest is moot. See: This thread and others covering the issue.

synchronicity wrote:

Tau Codex, p30 wrote:Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+, with saves allowed, before resolving its attacks.

In cases of codex > rulebook, we accept that because the codex rules state "model" (singular) and "vehicle" (singular), it is impossible for a Flechette to resolve attacks against models that are not locked in combat with that specific vehicle.

If you use that interpretation, then Flechette Dischargers will never work, as vehicles without a weapon skill are never locked in combat.

kirsanth wrote:Or to rephrase my previous answer: INAT has an answer. The rest is moot. See: This thread and others covering the issue.

MY OPINION SHALL BE READ AND ACCEPTED BY ALL. SO IT IS WRITTEN.

Saldiven wrote:

If you use that interpretation, then Flechette Dischargers will never work, as vehicles without a weapon skill are never locked in combat.

Sorry, let me rephrase to use the actual wording: "it is impossible for a Flechette to resolve attacks against models that are not attacking that specific vehicle."

Better?

synchronicity wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Or to rephrase my previous answer: INAT has an answer. The rest is moot. See: This thread and others covering the issue.

MY OPINION SHALL BE READ AND ACCEPTED BY ALL. SO IT IS WRITTEN.

Actually, it's Yakface and Centurion99's and all the others on the FAQ Councils opinion.

And yes, you will accept it at 99.999997% of tournaments run by sane people nowadays.

Gwar! wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Or to rephrase my previous answer: INAT has an answer. The rest is moot. See: This thread and others covering the issue.

MY OPINION SHALL BE READ AND ACCEPTED BY ALL. SO IT IS WRITTEN.

Actually, it's Yakface and Centurion99's and all the others on the FAQ Councils opinion.

And yes, you will accept it at 99.999997% of tournaments run by sane people nowadays.

Way to steal my thunder...

synchronicity wrote:
Sorry, let me rephrase to use the actual wording: "it is impossible for a Flechette to resolve attacks against models that are not attacking that specific vehicle."

Better?

So they never work on squadrons?

(as no attacks are directed at any specific vehicle, just at the unit, or are you arguing that they work like Lukas the Tricksters cloak of the dopplegangrel and do nothing until the vehicle is alone and can thus be a legal target?)

Jack

synchronicity wrote:I think we should be careful about assuming what can happen when a codex doesn't explain everything. Just because the Tau codex doesn't say we don't reference vehicle squadron assault rules doesn't mean they automatically apply to Flechette Dischargers.

I see it as another case of codex trumps rulebook. While at first glance, no, the Discharger rules don't seem to hold any sway over rulebook squadrons, in fact all that you need is right there in the codex:

Tau Codex, p30 wrote:Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+, with saves allowed, before resolving its attacks.

In cases of codex > rulebook, we accept that because the codex rules state "model" (singular) and "vehicle" (singular), it is impossible for a Flechette to resolve attacks against models that are not locked in combat with that specific vehicle.

Yes, that is not how assaulting vehicle squadrons works. But a Flechette getting attacks on models not actually locked in combat with its vehicle goes against the codex ruling. That much is true, because the rules only specify singular vehicles, which vehicles still are even in a squadron.

To OP: if you try and play with those people's weird RAW loophole interpretation, you won't make yourself any friends (and you may lose all your Ork friends!). I'm not saying it wouldn't hold up in something like Ard Boyz, but if you were to go onto ATT and bring this subject up I can almost guarantee you that most Tau players will agree with me. Let the Greater Good triumph here!

The individual vehicles can be attacked/damaged as part of a unit, just as in a regular combat. It in no way conflicts with the flechette discharger entry. Just because a piece of wargear refers to the holder as an individual, does not mean that that individual is not being attacked when part of a unit being attacked.

Ridcully wrote:The individual vehicles can be attacked/damaged as part of a unit, just as in a regular combat. It in no way conflicts with the flechette discharger entry. Just because a piece of wargear refers to the holder as an individual, does not mean that that individual is not being attacked when part of a unit being attacked.

I'm not saying that Piranhas can't be attacked by the rules of vehicle squadrons. Indeed, it is a very good way to get rid of 5 Piranhas. I'm merely saying that getting 60 attacks from Flechettes onto 12 assaulting Ork Boyz is going against the wording on how Flechettes should work. I believe it to work on a per model basis, per vehicle being attacked.

But I don't think many share my view, which is fine. I don't mean to be sounding high and mighty here, and if I have, I apologize. I just don't think that you should be able to mulitply the number of attacks you get from Flechettes by how many vehicles have it in the squadron. One attack per attacker is how I read the rule to work.

Consider this: Let's say you have 5 Piranhas, and only one Piranha has Flechettes. Now a squad of Ork Boyz assaults one of the Piranhas, but doesn't assault the one with a Flechette Discharger. Should the squadron get 12 attacks against the Ork Boyz? I don't believe so, because it goes against the Codex wording of "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded..."

Go with the INAT faq ruling its the most reasonably well written FAQ out there.


GW should just issue a press release and be like yeah this is what we use.

For what it's worth, every Tau player I've played has played it so that they get their attacks. I think in context of the rest of their codex it's entirely necessary for it to sway that way.

synchronicity wrote:Consider this: Let's say you have 5 Piranhas, and only one Piranha has Flechettes. Now a squad of Ork Boyz assaults one of the Piranhas, but doesn't assault the one with a Flechette Discharger. Should the squadron get 12 attacks against the Ork Boyz? I don't believe so, because it goes against the Codex wording of "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded..."

But they are attacking the vehicle, the ork player gets no say in which vehicle his hits are assigned to, that's up to the Tau player.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

synchronicity wrote:Consider this: Let's say you have 5 Piranhas, and only one Piranha has Flechettes. Now a squad of Ork Boyz assaults one of the Piranhas, but doesn't assault the one with a Flechette Discharger. Should the squadron get 12 attacks against the Ork Boyz? I don't believe so, because it goes against the Codex wording of "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded..."

But they are attacking the vehicle, the ork player gets no say in which vehicle his hits are assigned to, that's up to the Tau player.

Jack

Ah. But, the last few words of the Flechette Discharger rules read like this: "...before resolving its attacks." So no attacks of the Orks have been assigned at all, and the Flechette attacks must be resolved before any Piranhas are chosen to be targets by the Ork's attacks. Basically, the Orks attack but do not roll for hits until Flechette wounds have been applied and saved. This is normally never a problem because there is only ever one target for these attacks; except in squadrons.

I don't think you can say that non-attacked Piranhas can use there Flechettes, because whether the vehicle is assigned hits never enters into the Flechette rules. In fact, looking at Codex RAW, Flechette wounds occur before allocation of assault hits. The BRB states for squadrons: "When engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and armour penetration against the squadron as a whole."

However, Flechettes happen before rolls to hit are made, even considering vehicle squadron rules. That's why I firmly believe you look at it by a vehicle by vehicle basis, and not a squadron allocation basis.

As a squadron, the combat operates as a squadron... against the squadron. Every vehicle is involved in the combat, and none can be excluded.

Ridcully wrote:As a squadron, the combat operates as a squadron... against the squadron. Every vehicle is involved in the combat, and none can be excluded.

Well then to that, I say the Flechettes don't work period in a squadron, since the wording is "...any model attacking the vehicle..." rather than "...any model attacking the squadron..." The Flechette RAW simply doesn't cover what happens in a squadron.

If you're attacking the squadron, it only follows that you must be attacking the vehicles in said squadron. Seriously, the requirements are met.

The only option is following the INAT FAQs, coming up with your own house rule, or following the overpowered non RAI RAW.

I respectfully disagree with your first line, because I think attacking a vehicle and attacking a squadron are two different situations, and Flechettes only work in the latter former.

I respectfully agree with your second, with exception to the fact that RAW Flechettes can cause more wounds than models attacking.

It's just one of those things where we will have to disagree.

EDIT: Meant former, not latter!

I think you mean the former... Unless you're finally seeing things my way, in which case... hurrah but i would say both.

lol

Ha! You are correct, I did mean former! Thanks for the save!

I'm confused, why does the INAT faq seem to say that your vehicle squadrons should only ever take 1 discharger?

It's not saying you should necessarily only take one discharger, but that only one discharger will launch during the combat and only one discharger is needed to for it to work when the squadron is attacked. But if you lost the only vehicle that had the discharger, you would lose your flechette benefit in future combats. If all your vehicles had dischargers, that obviously wouldn't be an issue.

Ridcully wrote:It's not saying you should necessarily only take one discharger, but that only one discharger will launch during the combat and only one discharger is needed to for it to work when the squadron is attacked. But if you lost the only vehicle that had the discharger, you would lose your flechette benefit in future combats. If all your vehicles had dischargers, that obviously wouldn't be an issue.

I'm just wondering why the INAT faq would change it so much. It seems like a pretty clear cut issue given squadron rules.