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Da Boss wrote: The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.
If given the choice of siding with Russia vs The FBI, CIA, etc i would probably choose Russia lol Many of our Alphabet agencies have some funny history.
Look all I'm saying is that voter ID's might help against future meddling from foreign powers or other groups.
And Russia doesn't? How many people, political opponents, and journalists go "missing" over there again each year? You think the FBI/CIA/NSA are shady? How about the KGB, of which Putin was the head of?
Also, Russia didn't have a single person vote in the US election. They bypassed whatever you think the voter ID would stop completely by going straight into the voting system. This whole voter ID thing is stupid, and most people who are saying "But I can get an ID" can't be bothered to think about literally anyone but themselves.
Not that many, actually. Political assassinations and disappearances in Russia are very rare outside of Chechnya. The Russian government has better ways to shut up its opponents. Apart from that, you are 100% right. The CIA/FBI/NSA are shady, horrid and borderline criminal organisations, but the Russian FSB/SVR/GRU are 100% worse. At least American secret services are somewhat bound by laws and accountability to the civilian American government. In Russia on the other hand, the secret services are the ones making the laws. They are the Russian government.
And voter ID isn't going to stop them even a little bit. We have voter ID laws here in Europe. Russia is still meddling. Russia has voter ID laws as well. Doesn't stop the US from meddling in our elections.
Da Boss wrote: The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.
If given the choice of siding with Russia vs The FBI, CIA, etc i would probably choose Russia lol Many of our Alphabet agencies have some funny history.
Look all I'm saying is that voter ID's might help against future meddling from foreign powers or other groups.
How positively american of you to trust a foreign hostile power
Not hostile. Just mildly annoyed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/17 21:35:53
d-usa wrote: The 65th Amendment: the right to fly.
Tom Petty, Sugar Ray and the Red Hot Chili Pepper's hard work lobbying for this god-given right was not in vain!
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
The fact that basically nobody does it doesn't change the fact they could. Its actually shocking that it doesn't happen more often since it would be so easy to do.
Probably because any group serious about tampering with election results would trivially gain direct access to the polling machines themselves and could just decide what the outcome should be.
Bran Dawri wrote: While the way your voter ID laws are often clothed make it clear the intent is to dissuade certain population groups from voting, the idea of them in general is not so bad.
We cannot vote for anything here without ID. But then, everyone is required to have one anyway, so it doesn't stop anyone.
Is it required required in <checks your map> Netherland? Or, is it something you cant really function in your society without it.
It is required in most European countries (the odd one out being the UK, and maybe Ireland).
You are required to get one at a certain age (in Spain it's 14 yo), and it is the only official way to ID yourself. So if you want to interact with the government in any way (taxes, property, healthcare, voting etc.) or most business (utilities, banks, etc.) you need to have your ID number. It's also the only legal means other than a passport to get on a flight or ferry trip.
Not having one after a certain age is an administrative infraction, but you really can't function without one. Legal foreign residents need to get the foreign resident ID after a certain time, too.
This is why the nonsense about Russia is so infuriatingly stupid. The US already conducts elections by having citizens jumping through hoops to essentially toss their vote into a black hole sieve and every American who ever applied for a job had all the personal info necessary to order a new birth certificate leaked by Equifax
but
someone phishing some dumbass into revealing the exact words and thoughts of the DNC and Russia spending a whopping two million dollars per month on Facebook
that is the real threat to US democracy and the thing that absolute requires a lot of nationalistic sabe rattling. Ugh.
Mueller seeks Use Immunity for 5 previously unnamed witnesses in the ongoing Manafort case.
At the same time, Trump is trying to claim he 'mis-spoke' hours after he doubled down on his disgraceful Helsinki speech with an interview on Hannity last night.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
The number of people who would be unable to vote, while being eligible to, is zero. Unless you are a hermit living on a mountain somewhere everybody has to have ID to be a functional member of society at least at some point in their lives. Plus you have to show ID and proof of residence to even register to vote in the first place, so adding the additional requirement of some form of ID at the polling station is no burden at all.
Grey, I'm guessing you've never lost a government ID and had to wait for a new one, have you? I don't mean it expired and a new one was issued, I mean lost the current one. You're looking at 10 days to a month, currently, for the secure RFID chip card. You also forget that cards expire. So, that one time in your life you needed one, you might not have it anymore.
Remember, I work at Social Security. Do you have any idea how many people lose their SSC and have to get a new one issued? And how long that can take? If you think this plan is workable, all I can do is ROFL.
And again, you needed to show some form of ID and proof of residence to register to vote in the first place. Why can't you just flash that same ID when you get to the polling place?
Because the ID needs to be current. if you signed up to vote in High School (common around here) and your ID lapses between points A and B, you're screwed.
No, I understand that. My point was to rhetorically ask "how do you prove this" so that you can use the corroborating evidence to prosecute/sanction the perp..
Well, the part where Putin admitted he ordered it yesterday definitely helps!
I also notice, whemb, that you play the 'You're all pissed about Hillery Clinton not winning' card'. This is a lie. Because people are pissed who did not vote Hillery at this point. I think calling him 'President Treason' is a good description atm.
If you want to see how this works, here's an interview with a man I'm willing to admit is much smarter than I am, about how the Russian machine works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/17 22:09:36
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
No, I understand that. My point was to rhetorically ask "how do you prove this" so that you can use the corroborating evidence to prosecute/sanction the perp..
Well, the part where Putin admitted he ordered it yesterday definitely helps!
I also notice, whemb, that you play the 'You're all pissed about Hillery Clinton not winning' card'. This is a lie. Because people are pissed who did not vote Hillery at this point. I think calling him 'President Treason' is a good description atm.
Let's have a simple hypothetical here...
If Hillary had won and the GOP was blaming Russian hackers, the general press treatment... if covered at all in any meaningful way... would be met with general derision for “conspiracy theory” and laughing at the GOP for being dumb enough to be hacked by the Russians.
Amirite?
For those who believes only the DNC was hacked... .about that...
KTG17 wrote: If I have to go through getting the right ID to gain access to commercial flights, I sure as hell should have some ID to prove who I am when I go to vote.
If Hillary had won and the GOP was blaming Russian hackers, the general press treatment... if covered at all in any meaningful way... would be met with general derision for “conspiracy theory” and laughing at the GOP for being dumb enough to be hacked by the Russians.
Amirite?
Well, if by that you mean would the Dems act like Trump has regarding this? ""Gross negligence by the Democratic National Committee allowed hacking to take place. The Republican National Committee had strong defense!"
No, you are not. Why? Leverage. A Russian attack on the RNC would have played into Hillery's hands regarding Russia. Casus Belli.
As far as the RNC hack, Mueller focuses on the Dems because their is easier to prove in court, since their information was leaked.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
No, you are not. Why? Leverage. A Russian attack on the RNC would have played into Hillery's hands regarding Russia. Casus Belli.
Clinton possibly did want war with Russia but the thought only makes me grateful that she lost.
"clinton wants a war" is only a step away from "pedo pizzashop basement", which is only a step away from "lizard people from outer space".
Dems know wars are incredibly unpopular with their base. They'd have to get the CIA to fly some planes into Madison Square Gardens, only use Russian hijackers this time.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Clinton possibly did want war with Russia but the thought only makes me grateful that she lost.
All the same to me. I do like to think that Hillery would at least have been less embarrassing to the US though. That whole 'die with dignity' thing. Trump's way is.... well, they're alive, but may not WANT to be alive at this point.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
No, you are not. Why? Leverage. A Russian attack on the RNC would have played into Hillery's hands regarding Russia. Casus Belli.
Clinton possibly did want war with Russia but the thought only makes me grateful that she lost.
"clinton wants a war" is only a step away from "pedo pizzashop basement", which is only a step away from "lizard people from outer space".
Dems know wars are incredibly unpopular with their base. They'd have to get the CIA to fly some planes into Madison Square Gardens, only use Russian hijackers this time.
Funny that you would mention the little pizza conspiracy because the wild part about it was not the idea that wealthy child molesters are connected and watch each other's backs but that they had their headquarters in some random pizzeria.
In any case I was responding to a hypothetical in which Russia did not cybercrime the RNC because it would've "played into Clinton's hands" w/r/t Russia, specifically using the term "casus belli" which means justification for a war. Which is to say that it's not an explanation of events that makes me sad that she managed to lose the election to literally Donald Trump.
No, you are not. Why? Leverage. A Russian attack on the RNC would have played into Hillery's hands regarding Russia. Casus Belli.
Clinton possibly did want war with Russia but the thought only makes me grateful that she lost.
"clinton wants a war" is only a step away from "pedo pizzashop basement", which is only a step away from "lizard people from outer space".
Dems know wars are incredibly unpopular with their base. They'd have to get the CIA to fly some planes into Madison Square Gardens, only use Russian hijackers this time.
Funny that you would mention the little pizza conspiracy because the wild part about it was not the idea that wealthy child molesters are connected and watch each other's backs but that they had their headquarters in some random pizzeria.
You have glossed that conspiracy pretty good. Because the wild part was the whole Democrats (specifically Podesta and HRC) were running a paedophile sex ring out of a pizzaria in DC because Podesta emailed about food often and a 4chan Anon claimed to be a expert in secret paedophile code language and figured it all out.
And Russia doesn't? How many people, political opponents, and journalists go "missing" over there again each year? You think the FBI/CIA/NSA are shady? How about the KGB, of which Putin was the head of?
That's astounding fact-checking skills from you.
Let me be your google - Putin highest rank in KGB was Lieutenant-colonel. He never was the head of KGB even remotely - he was the first assistant (vice-head os department) of counter-intelligence in GDR (Soviet Germany).
Then from 98 to 99 he indeed was the head of FSB.
And for your better understanding 1998 is the year of Economic default in Russia - so Putin was all about to reform the structure - basicly paper works.
Just for you to know and understand what kind of person he is - his specialization and education is Law. He is a lawyer/judge type man basicly. He is not a Rembo or something - yes of course he had a military career - but it involved more paperworks than muscleworks.
So when he is asked about missing people - he is not that type of man that would physically remove his opponents. He prefers to undermine them and keep in a short distance to control situation. And as any former special agent he prefers to work silently so no one ever knows, without any noise. Eliminating people is the noise. Organized eliminating people eventualy brings the same treatment to you.
And third thing you should know about Putin - he is not God of Russia - he has opponents in Russia - and i mean not those clowns you hear from the media - his opponents is a numbers of powerfull Russian Oligarchs, that controls various spheres in Russia.
Like Khodorkovsky - he was the real opponent. Does Putin eliminated him? No. He granted him a pardon. All those Oligarchs that failed to confront Putin just goes away (mostly in Britain) - they are don't killed. So by the number of Oligarchs/Buisnessman refugee you can see that elimination is not the regular instrument of Putin's Policy. He is a lawyer afterall.
P.S. well, Iron_captain nailed it first - I agree with him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 00:48:46
It is funny how just needing an ID cause mayhem an irrational accusation that GOP try to prevent people from voting when here in Europe it would be unthinkable to vote WITHOUT it^^
Cultural gap ?
godardc wrote: It is funny how just needing an ID cause mayhem an irrational accusation that GOP try to prevent people from voting when here in Europe it would be unthinkable to vote WITHOUT it^^
Cultural gap ?
I don't think most European countries have a history of Jim Crow being a wide spread practice so yeah. That would be a culture gap. Some in the US are extremely suspicious of any law that throws up barriers to entry for voters, especially when the party passing said laws is dumb enough to come out and say it's passing them to prevent the other side's base from being able to vote. In Europe such concerns could probably be dismissed as conspiratorial rambling. In the US there's history on the matter, which makes it more of a sticking point.
godardc wrote: It is funny how just needing an ID cause mayhem an irrational accusation that GOP try to prevent people from voting when here in Europe it would be unthinkable to vote WITHOUT it^^
Cultural gap ?
Well, it's hardly irrational because it has been used for that in the past, specifically Wisconsin. Also, sadly, the GOP has bragged about how it will let them rig elections. Not even trying to hide intent there.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Wow is GOP really that dumb ? I can't believe this, it is so stupid on so many points....
And, unfortunately, I missed the presidents speech, so I don't get what president Trump did that was so treacherous ?
He shouldn't have spoken a bad way from his own country abroad, that's for sure, I hated it when macron did it, but treason ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 01:26:26
godardc wrote: Wow is GOP really that dumb ? I can't believe this, it is so stupid on so many points....
And, unfortunately, I missed the presidents speech, so I don't get what president Trump did that was so treacherous ?
He shouldn't have spoken a bad way from his own country abroad, that's for sure, I hated it when macron did it, but treason ?
Under US law treason includes providing comfort and aid to the enemy. Which, arguably, he did. It does not require a state of war to exist.
Interesting ad atm,
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
And nobody think that after this new cold war (the last decade), a warming could be good, thanks to Trump and Putin ? Maybe it is time to stop seing Russian as opponent and they will stop oppose America (even if I don't get how they could with their tiny GDP :p ) ?
godardc wrote: And nobody think that after this new cold war (the last decade), a warming could be good, thanks to Trump and Putin ? Maybe it is time to stop seing Russian as opponent and they will stop oppose America (even if I don't get how they could with their tiny GDP :p ) ?
I doubt they ever will stop, short of a replacement of Putin. You have to understand, this is a man will never NOT see the west as an opponent.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
skyth wrote: Basically, it comes down to putting road blocks in the way of people who want to vote is a bad thing.
Do a quick google search of all the stories showing the illegals being deported that were all the rave last year, and skim through how many of them voted in elections. Even I was shocked at how regular it was. Some people view ID laws as roadblocks for people who want to vote, I view it as a roadblock to noncitizens who want to vote. I also think that if we are going to keep the electric balloting that we should disconnect the machines from the damn internet. That'd stop most of the breaching potential right there. I'm not naïve enough to think that people still can't find ways to manipulate votes, but making it harder to do so should never be considered a bad thing.
Me personally, I think that getting an ID shouldn't cost anything here in the states. Show up with legitimate documentation, get a proper ID. If transportation is that much of an issue, do like the National Guard does from time to time. They have portable ID stations and, as long as they can access the database via satellite hookup, can print you a new ID. I had to get one done from a station such as that myself. There are ways to make ID laws and getting an ID manageable, and not viewed as some sort of ethnic screening.
d-usa wrote: Post all those stories if they are everywhere.
Or is this the often debunked “many were automatically registered, no evidence they voted” story?
It always is. The only story I've ever found of people who shouldn't be voting actually voting in any number was in Virginia, and the problem there would easily have been solved by proper purges of the voter rolls/verification of address. The problem wasn't even technically non-citizens voting the issue effected citizens too but certain corners focused completely on how non-citizens got caught in the rope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 02:54:50
