US & NA Politics Thread

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**Grey Templar**

d-usa wrote:
Any demand for voter ID should first have to demonstrate a problem in need of solving.

How many cases of in-person voter fraud did we have? How many eligible people will be unable to vote if we implement them?

The number of people who would be unable to vote, while being eligible to, is zero. Unless you are a hermit living on a mountain somewhere everybody has to have ID to be a functional member of society at least at some point in their lives. Plus you have to show ID and proof of residence to even register to vote in the first place, so adding the additional requirement of some form of ID at the polling station is no burden at all.

Anybody who doesn't vote because of needing ID at the polling station is doing so purely because they choose to. Not because they're actually being impeded or suppressed.

If you can't get a ride or take a bus somewhere to get ID, how were you getting to the polling place?

If you can't afford a $30 state ID card, you probably couldn't afford to go to the polls anyway. But I'd like there to be a free federal or state ID available to anybody who wanted one anyway.

And again, you needed to show some form of ID and proof of residence to register to vote in the first place. Why can't you just flash that same ID when you get to the polling place?

**d-usa**

Again:

**earlofburger**

Come to think of it do we even need Drivers licensees or even concealed carry licenses?

**Da Boss**

I'm 33 and only applying for my drivers license now. My passport is my only form of ID.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Grey Templar wrote:

If you can't afford a $30 state ID card, you probably couldn't afford to go to the polls anyway.

So now there's a poll tax, or some metric where we determine whether you can vote by how much money you have???

**earlofburger**

d-usa wrote:
Again:

Not an argument

**d-usa**

earlofburger wrote:
Come to think of it do we even need Drivers licensees or even concealed carry licenses?

Depends on the purpose of each, and the states that issue them.

Does the state require verification that you have completed a legally required course of training to demonstrate your ability to safely operate a piece of equipment in public? Then probably.

Of note, neither Driver's License nor Concealed Carry Licenses are designed to actually validate your identity. They are just pieces of documents that have your picture on them to show that you are the person actually licensed by that piece of paper.

Our system has just developed to work around a DL as a de-facto ID in the same way that we have developled to work around your SSN as a de-facto national ID number. Neither of which has worked out all that well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

earlofburger wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Again:

Not an argument

Sorry.

18,822,492 US eligible citizens will be unable to vote due to voter ID laws.

**Kanluwen**

earlofburger wrote:

Not an argument

It's better than the nonsensical arguments put forward in favor of voter IDs.

Most of the idea behind the need for voter IDs is "someone could" do something--that "someone could" impersonate another individual, "someone could" stuff the ballots using the identity of deceased persons, etc.

So why doesn't it happen more often? There's no tangible reward for someone to go through with it--there's a punishment for identity fraud/identity theft while there's no real benefit for the individual engaging in it.

**d-usa**

earlofburger wrote:
2 US eligible citizens will be unable to vote due to voter ID laws.

FTFY

FYI, because your post count is low.

For the most part, FTFY type posts are extremely frowned upon by the moderators around here, as well as posters in general.

**Da Boss**

The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.

**Grey Templar**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

If you can't afford a $30 state ID card, you probably couldn't afford to go to the polls anyway.

So now there's a poll tax, or some metric where we determine whether you can vote by how much money you have???

I'm in favor of free ID cards, if that really really is an issue.

But realistically its not an issue. Much the same way voter fraud isn't an issue. Anybody who is voting could realistically afford to get an ID.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
I consider it a problem even if its not being abused right now. the fact that it can be abused, and there is a relatively simple solution, is why I think it wouldn't be a big deal.

It's like arguing that all houses should be built on stilts, even if you live so far from a floodplain that there has never been a flood. Because it's simple, so what's the big deal?

Voter ID in the US has always been a solution in search of a problem. The kind of in-person voting fraud that voter ID would fix statistically does not exist, and the number of actually eligible voters that would be disenfranchised would be a million fold higher. It's the craziest argument, unless you admit the real problem is "too many of the wrong kind of person voting", in which case it makes a lot more sense.

In the post above me, you're saying that it's not a real problem, but lets spend a lot of taxpayer money to implement free IDs, and then lets disenfranchise the people who for whatever reason didn't get one, even though that's clearly going to be a much, much greater number. In what specific way is that a good idea? How is that good governance, any more than requiring there to be a tiger defense station every 50 feet?

**Grey Templar**

Kanluwen wrote:
earlofburger wrote:

Not an argument

It's better than the nonsensical arguments put forward in favor of voter IDs.

Most of the idea behind the need for voter IDs is "someone could" do something--that "someone could" impersonate another individual, "someone could" stuff the ballots using the identity of deceased persons, etc.

So why doesn't it happen more often? There's no tangible reward for someone to go through with it--there's a punishment for identity fraud/identity theft while there's no real benefit for the individual engaging in it.

Of course there is a real benefit. You've multiplied the value of your vote.

Is that worth the penalty of getting caught? Well that's a subjective question. The likelihood of getting caught is low, precisely because no ID verification is done at polling stations.

**earlofburger**

Da Boss wrote:
The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.

If given the choice of siding with Russia vs The FBI, CIA, etc i would probably choose Russia lol Many of our Alphabet agencies have some funny history.

Look all I'm saying is that voter ID's might help against future meddling from foreign powers or other groups.

**Kanluwen**

Grey Templar wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

If you can't afford a $30 state ID card, you probably couldn't afford to go to the polls anyway.

So now there's a poll tax, or some metric where we determine whether you can vote by how much money you have???

I'm in favor of free ID cards, if that really really is an issue.

But realistically its not an issue. Much the same way voter fraud isn't an issue. Anybody who is voting could realistically afford to get an ID.

Realistically, it can be an issue. In several of these instances, the initial wording of these bills prevented things that should be considered valid ID to not be considered. Things like a current college ID, a recently expired permit/license for someone under a certain age(~72 was the cutoff for the initial language of NC's bill) or an out of state ID while other things were argued to be considered--things like CCW permits or people trying to put forth NRA membership cards as identification.

And let's not forget that a certain party continues to try to sneak in, as part of these bills, other hindrances. Things like lowering the amount of time for early voting or closing early voting sites. You can keep pretending that it's "just" about the voter IDs but that's not all the whole argument has been about.

**d-usa**

It may solve the problem the moment those foreign powers start to deploy paratroops on election days to claim in-person ballots at voting stations across the nation.

**Grey Templar**

Kanluwen wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

If you can't afford a $30 state ID card, you probably couldn't afford to go to the polls anyway.

So now there's a poll tax, or some metric where we determine whether you can vote by how much money you have???

I'm in favor of free ID cards, if that really really is an issue.

But realistically its not an issue. Much the same way voter fraud isn't an issue. Anybody who is voting could realistically afford to get an ID.

Realistically, it can be an issue. In several of these instances, the initial wording of these bills prevented things that should be considered valid ID to not be considered. Things like a current college ID, a recently expired permit/license for someone under a certain age(~72 was the cutoff for the initial language of NC's bill) or an out of state ID while other things were argued to be considered--things like CCW permits or people trying to put forth NRA membership cards as identification.

And let's not forget that a certain party continues to try to sneak in, as part of these bills, other hindrances. Things like lowering the amount of time for early voting or closing early voting sites. You can keep pretending that it's "just" about the voter IDs but that's not all the whole argument has been about.

I'm in favor of accepting a wide amount of documents for voter.

So really, you are only against how voter ID is being implemented in a way that is dis-favorable to minorities. You're not against Voter ID in and of itself.

**Da Boss**

If you require an ID for voting, then everyone should be issued with a voter ID once they are of voting age.

**Ouze**

Grey Templar wrote:
So really, you are only against how voter ID is being implemented in a way that is dis-favorable to minorities. You're not against Voter ID in and of itself.

In a hypothetical world where 100% of eligible voters have IDs that were cost free and effortless for them to get, then sure, I'd be OK with it.

**Grey Templar**

Da Boss wrote:
If you require an ID for voting, then everyone should be issued with a voter ID once they are of voting age.

Sure. A no expiration date ID that is a legally accepted for anything requiring ID would be a good thing to have.

Issue these IDs through any county clerk and we're golden.

**feeder**

Voter ID is like Capital Punishment.

In a perfect world without mistakes, it's probably a good system.

We do not live in a perfect world without mistakes. So it's a fething terrible idea.

**Ouze**

feeder wrote:
Voter ID is like Capital Punishment.

In a perfect world without mistakes, it's probably a good system.

We do not live in a perfect world without mistakes. So it's a fething terrible idea.

Yeah, it's a good analogy. In theory I have no problem with capital punishment but in practice I'd like to see a permanent moratorium because man we are not good at it on any level, whether that be technical, moral, or equal.

**Kanluwen**

Grey Templar wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
If you require an ID for voting, then everyone should be issued with a voter ID once they are of voting age.

Sure. A no expiration date ID that is a legally accepted for anything requiring ID would be a good thing to have.

Issue these IDs through any county clerk and we're golden.

Until we have another Kim Davis who doesn't do her job when a <insert party she disfavors> comes rolling up.

No, the way to do it is high school. Have seniors registered to vote early and get their IDs when they turn 16 or 17.

**AdeptSister**

I also think (and hope) that people who keep pushing for more voter laws forgot about the history of disenfranchisement in American voting. The Voting Rights Act was created based on concrete examples of being stopped (sometimes violently) from voting. It now has been gutted.

So when people keep trying to find ways to make it harder to vote and it 'accidentally' affects minorities more than others....Well other people see a pattern.

**Kanluwen**

Ouze wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
So really, you are only against how voter ID is being implemented in a way that is dis-favorable to minorities. You're not against Voter ID in and of itself.

In a hypothetical world where 100% of eligible voters have IDs that were cost free and effortless for them to get, then sure, I'd be OK with it.

And where the lack of those laws weren't being used as a scare tactic to rile up a specific voter base or where the laws themselves are, on the surface, a-ok...but then a party starts shutting down polling places and shutting down locations to obtain IDs.

**Bran Dawri**

While the way your voter ID laws are often clothed make it clear the intent is to dissuade certain population groups from voting, the idea of them in general is not so bad.
We cannot vote for anything here without ID. But then, everyone is required to have one anyway, so it doesn't stop anyone.

**whembly**

Bran Dawri wrote:
While the way your voter ID laws are often clothed make it clear the intent is to dissuade certain population groups from voting, the idea of them in general is not so bad.
We cannot vote for anything here without ID. But then, everyone is required to have one anyway, so it doesn't stop anyone.

Is it required required in <checks your map> Netherland? Or, is it something you cant really function in your society without it.

EDIT: fyi, for anyone curious, in Missouri's State Constitution you much provide some sort of IDs:
https://s1.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/ElectionGoVoteMissouri/acceptable_ids.pdf

**KTG17**

d-usa wrote:
earlofburger wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, Voter ID laws tend to disenfranchise people. Specifically, minorities, the poor, and the elderly.

Care to elaborate on that?

Just because I should probably give a bit of a more helpful answer, even if I feel it's a futile effort on this board:

As it has been explained, many of the demographics that have a hard time getting the required IDs are often demographics that are tend to vote a certain way (ie: Democratic), while almost all laws implementing voter ID requirements are passed by Republican legislatures.

One of the most obvious examples of voter ID laws and voting access was a few years ago in South Carolina I think. We had a big discussion on here and when you actually looked at the election results it made it pretty easy to see how each specific change affected the demographics: Early Registration (registering before you turned 18, if you will be 18 on the date of the election) was restricted, and that demographic voted Democrat. Sunday voting was eliminated, and that demographic was mainly black senior citizens being driven to polls after church voting Democrat. Early voting was cut down to fewer days (most early voters voted Democrat). For Voter IDs, Student IDs were not accepted (mostly voted Democrat), Concealed Carry IDs were accepted (mostly voted Republican), expired IDs were not allowed, unless you were over 60something (old people voted Republican). Etc.

One of the big red herrings you will often see is that Voter ID laws often target minorities, which ultimately brings the defense of "stop calling the GOP racist". I personally think that race really isn't the issue here, and that the GOP would be happy to get rid of any laws that disenfranchise minorities if they would vote Republican instead of Democrat.

I just got a new drivers license. I had to go in and get it and not order a new one online because its in a new format (REAL ID Act). The old one will keep me from gaining entry to federal buildings, or even flying on commercial flights in 2020.

Phase Location Enforcement Date
Phase 1 Restricted areas (i.e., areas accessible by agency personnel, contractors, and their guests) for DHS headquarters in Washington. April 21, 2014
Phase 2 Restricted areas for all Federal facilities and nuclear power plants. July 21, 2014
Phase 3 Semi-restricted areas (i.e., areas available to the general public but subject to ID-based access control) for most Federal facilities.
3a. Federal Security Levels 1 and 2 January 19, 2015
3b. Federal Security Levels 3, 4, and 5, and military facilities October 10, 2015
Phase 4 Boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft. A driver's license or identification card from a noncompliant state may only be used in conjunction with a second form of ID for boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft. October 1, 2020

https://www.flhsmv.gov/driver-licenses-id-cards/real-id/

If I have to go through getting the right ID to gain access to commercial flights, I sure as hell should have some ID to prove who I am when I go to vote.

**Wolfblade**

earlofburger wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.

If given the choice of siding with Russia vs The FBI, CIA, etc i would probably choose Russia lol Many of our Alphabet agencies have some funny history.

Look all I'm saying is that voter ID's might help against future meddling from foreign powers or other groups.

And Russia doesn't? How many people, political opponents, and journalists go "missing" over there again each year? You think the FBI/CIA/NSA are shady? How about the KGB, of which Putin was the head of?

Also, Russia didn't have a single person vote in the US election. They bypassed whatever you think the voter ID would stop completely by going straight into the voting system. This whole voter ID thing is stupid, and most people who are saying "But I can get an ID" can't be bothered to think about literally anyone but themselves.

**Ustrello**

earlofburger wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
The voter ID thing is an obvious attempt to distract from discussing your traitorous president who sided with Russia over your own government and who shamed America with his obsequious behaviour.

If given the choice of siding with Russia vs The FBI, CIA, etc i would probably choose Russia lol Many of our Alphabet agencies have some funny history.

Look all I'm saying is that voter ID's might help against future meddling from foreign powers or other groups.

How positively american of you to trust a foreign hostile power