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I'm tired of all this talk about how fire warriors suck.

-Take kroot!!

-6-man FW squads armies with tons of suits

I know the mathhammer... a double FoF assault with 24 FW rapid firing into marines only causes 5.3 MEQ kills (85 pts).

What's the fix? There's gotta be a fix. I should be able to use only FW and no mangy kroot, and still have a competitive army. But this is not the current case.

I know there are tons of "Fix Tau" threads, but this is just for the Firewarriors.

Join me in my anti-kroot campaign!!!

Well, I think the answer is obviously to nerf Kroot. If Kroot are worse than Fire Warriors, everyone'll take Fire Warriors. We both know this is what GW will do.


Probably just drop down their cost a few points, cheapen the transport, maybe give them Crisis Suit squad leaders for access to Heavy/Special weapons.

Yes go crisis suits wih rail rifles would be nice if FW squads could get a HW for having 10 men like getting a Rail Rifle or sniper drone or something.

How overpowered would it be to allow pulse rifles to fire 3 shots in rapid fire range? This would cause 8 MEq kills with the above double FoF combo. On average, it takes 9 pulse rifles shots to kill a marine.

There would be the option of giving the Shas'Ui an upgrade suit of armor such as a non-stealth suit version of the stealth suit. You would have a 3+ save plus a burst cannon or a fusion blaster in the squad. Not sure how it would really flow together but there are already possible models for them with the smaller metal stealth suits.

Heavy weapons in firewarrior squads most likely wont happen.

Fluff wise, the Tau philosophy does not allow Heavy weapons in "troop" type slots. This is why the human auxillaries in the Taros Campaign book (which are basically guardsmen) cant take heavy weapons.

I think that it will most likely go to a more IG feel where you can take multiple Firewarrior squads as a single Troops and reduced cost down to about 6 pts or so.

I say that they up the ws to 4 then give 4 bs across the board, then put a huge blade on the bottom and top of the pulse rifle and have it count as a 2 handed weapon. Make the gun like a samurai sword. Like the necrons guns just more sleek.

Now you might say wtf are you smoking. I want some of that, but the problem is it really fair for a 10 man squad of marines that only cost 15 a model to equip heavy weapons and be better at both shooting and melee than a lot of stuff. So how does it stand to reason that for 5 less points you lose -1 save -3leadership, -1ws,-1bs,-1 toughness,-1str. Further more marines regroup always, but it cost FW 15 points to regroup. Sure you have a better gun, but if you get shot at or get in melee combat you will probably run off the table. OH and lets not overlook the constant updates of content and rules up date for you too. So you can always use your army to the fullest. If you want to figure out how much all those stats are look at how much it cost to upgrade all of that. Say tyranid is best example of what it cost to upgrade stats with wargear. most of them are 10 points with save being 15. So I say all Tau units and many other army units need a freaking buff,and to increase a units leader ship is about 10 points per point. So your looking at a 80 approximate points if you could upgrade FW that far. Yeah, Now dont you want to rethink, why it is that Marines get great stats and everyone else gets bad ones. Hell some of the dark eldar units cost more than space marines and have worse stats. I see it this way. Until the codex writer get their head out of a space marines ass, not much is going to change.

What makes kroot worth it are the kroot hounds and krootox. The kroot hounds almost always go first in combat, and the krootox can melts guys with the guns. I think kroot need fieldcraft taken away and giving stealth. Make them easier to use, and still go with the fluff. They can also infiltrate which is huge

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:I say that they up the ws to 4 then give 4 bs across the board, then put a huge blade on the bottom and top of the pulse rifle and have it count as a 2 handed weapon. Make the gun like a samurai sword. Like the necrons guns just more sleek.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:wtf are you smoking.

Read the Tau fluff. Your suggestion is over powered, and makes no sense with the fluff. Period.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:wtf are you smoking.

crack

Che-Vito wrote:

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:I say that they up the ws to 4 then give 4 bs across the board, then put a huge blade on the bottom and top of the pulse rifle and have it count as a 2 handed weapon. Make the gun like a samurai sword. Like the necrons guns just more sleek.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:wtf are you smoking.

Wth, didn't you read the rest of my post, I clearly pointed out that either A, FW cost to much, or B need to be buffed.

My solution was to buff them. You cannot honestly tell me that crisis suites wouldnt have bs 4, I mean what do they not have that a basic grunt space marine has. Seriously.

I mean you have nothing to support your answer with. Just a flat, its overpowered what are you thinking. Honestly if they didnt have good guns, NO ONE would use them. At least I tried to point out a comparison between tau fw and space marine to support myself. Oh and for Mr. fluff, if that were the case they would have better stats, because of all of there training. The only thing i can see them not having is a lower toughness and str, maybe lower ws, but that is not really true becuase they learn basic hand to hand early on. However, every other unit other than a shas'ui should have both better leadership and bs and ws.

Dont respond with a negative unless you can support it.

This'll be fun to rip apart...

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:I say that they up the ws to 4 then give 4 bs across the board,

Hahaha, NO. Tau have both poor vision and very little close-combat training.

then put a huge blade on the bottom and top of the pulse rifle and have it count as a 2 handed weapon. Make the gun like a samurai sword.

What, and make them even more like bad anime than they already are?

I want some of that, but the problem is it really fair for a 10 man squad of marines that only cost 15 a model to equip heavy weapons and be better at both shooting and melee than a lot of stuff. So how does it stand to reason that for 5 less points you lose -1 save -3leadership, -1ws,-1bs,-1 toughness,-1str. Further more marines regroup always, but it cost FW 15 points to regroup. Sure you have a better gun, but if you get shot at or get in melee combat you will probably run off the table. OH and lets not overlook the constant updates of content and rules up date for you too. So you can always use your army to the fullest. If you want to figure out how much all those stats are look at how much it cost to upgrade all of that. Say tyranid is best example of what it cost to upgrade stats with wargear. most of them are 10 points with save being 15. So I say all Tau units and many other army units need a freaking buff,and to increase a units leader ship is about 10 points per point. So your looking at a 80 approximate points if you could upgrade FW that far.

You have no idea how different Space Marines and Tau are, do you? They're completely different armies. Deal with it.

Yeah, Now dont you want to rethink, why it is that Marines get great stats and everyone else gets bad ones. Hell some of the dark eldar units cost more than space marines and have worse stats. I see it this way. Until the codex writer get their head out of a space marines ass, not much is going to change.

1. Space Marines are meant to be the ultimate warriors. Being super-soldiers is their role, like the SPARTANs in Halo. Tau are more numerous and aren't described as being more skilled than Guardsmen or anything like that. Besides, there's a damn good reason that I can get three Guardsmen per Marine.
2. Stats are not the only thing that matters. Consider the fact that DE have some awesome wargear like Agonisers and play differently from everyone else.

Now you might say wtf are you smoking

I'm saying it. What the feth are you smoking?

Yes, Tau need an update, right after DE, Necrons, DH and WH.

I agree on the BS 3 suit issue. How does an 8 year veteran in a mobile suit/armored core/veritec etc. shoot more poorly than a guardsman who survived 15 hours of combat (Mitchel Scanlon reference, yay!)

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
Wth, didn't you read the rest of my post, I clearly pointed out that either A, FW cost to much, or B need to be buffed.

My solution was to buff them. You cannot honestly tell me that crisis suites wouldnt have bs 4, I mean what do they not have that a basic grunt space marine has. Seriously.

I never disagreed with Crisis Suits as BS4, but the majority of your post otherwise was nonsense.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:I mean you have nothing to support your answer with. Just a flat, its overpowered what are you thinking. Honestly if they didnt have good guns, NO ONE would use them. At least I tried to point out a comparison between tau fw and space marine to support myself.

Supporting your points with false arguments doesn't count for much. Tau and Space Marines are quite uncomparable, in the fluff and on the board.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote: Oh and for Mr. fluff, if that were the case they would have better stats, because of all of there training. The only thing i can see them not having is a lower toughness and str, maybe lower ws, but that is not really true becuase they learn basic hand to hand early on. However, every other unit other than a shas'ui should have both better leadership and bs and ws.

Dont respond with a negative unless you can support it.

I will support my opinions fully, and refute yours, when I can understand what you're trying to say. Most of my opinions have been expressed over the two full threads about a Fandex for the Tau Empire, and have been rehashed multiple times.

To recap: there is no fluff that justifies giving the Fire Warriors better WS then Guardsmen. There is no fluff that suggests giving them better BS then Guardsmen (due to their eyesight) although a technological aid would make sense (a 4+ pt upgrade per model perhaps).

There is fluff that justifies the current WS for Fire Warriors, and there is fluff that justifies their current BS (although I think a piece of wargear that upgrades BS would also be appropriate, or some of us use Marker Drones.)

I think the easiest solution to add heavy weapon to the squad is to allow one of the drones to be a heavy weapon drone. Fast , Easy and not a fluff-killing solution to more firepower for the firewarriors. Hell, even if it were both drones, so long as its not some AT weapon, so burst cannons would be great wouldnt it?

Just my thoughts

Che-Vito wrote:
There is fluff that justifies the current WS for Fire Warriors, and there is fluff that justifies their current BS (although I think a piece of wargear that upgrades BS would also be appropriate, or some of us use Marker Drones.)

Ok then, cheaper FWs. They have a great infantry gun with great range compared to IG but no heavy weapon platforms and can't even shoot out of their transport (no fireports). For 10 points, I get a grunt that can't shoot well, can't fight close combat at all, and runs if a strong breeze blows past. Bonding knifes are worthless because with such a low initiative FWs get mulched when they lose close combat anyway (unless you're rolling box cars).

Someone else said that they're more numerous than special marines but you lose too much to justify just a 5 point drop; and no, they're cool weapon does not justify 5 pts.

I have no idea how to "fix" them without overpowering the army as a whole so I'll just take my 2 six-man squads that sit in the back while my crisis suits and heavy support do the heavy lifting.

FWs and Kroot are equally worthless in my eyes; they both run like crazy and get mulched in close combat by every other army in the game. Kroot may cause more wounds in close combat but any MEQ army will beat them because they lack wargear and staying power.

To improve the Firewarrior, you must build upon the fluff, not try to compete with Imperial Guard or Marines. Tau stats are what they are. They have powerful weapons but need to be more deadly in order to be worth their points. They also need to epitomize 'the greater good' and teamwork.

I'd do this through special rules for more than one Firewarrior unit firing at the same target. Perhaps borrow a page from the carbine and have 'Crossfire( or whatever you'd like to call this new special rule)' cause units to move as if they are in difficult terrain. The ability to slow an advance from 30" would make a FW gunline a daunting prospect for any CC army. It also wouldn't step on the toes of the carbine, which has a chance to stop an enemy unit. This also wouldn't be possible without multiple FW units, which means it would probably be nicely balanced with horde armies.

Gitzbitah wrote:
I'd do this through special rules for more than one Firewarrior unit firing at the same target. Perhaps borrow a page from the carbine and have 'Crossfire( or whatever you'd like to call this new special rule)' cause units to move as if they are in difficult terrain. The ability to slow an advance from 30" would make a FW gunline a daunting prospect for any CC army. It also wouldn't step on the toes of the carbine, which has a chance to stop an enemy unit. This also wouldn't be possible without multiple FW units, which means it would probably be nicely balanced with horde armies.

The problem with crabines is that they have no affect on units like plague marines which ignor pinning. I hate playing against plague marines because I have to use crisis suits to kill them and that's just poor economics (my 50+ point fig to kill your 25 point fig). MEQs just make carbines and pulse rifles worthless. I think the whole game gets a bit imbalanced when infantry are unable to square off against one another. The math should equate; 2-3 average rolling guardsmen should be able to kill 1 marine and so on.

yeah, i'd say FW are worth about 8-9 points when compared with the newer released grunts like ork shoota boys and guardsmen. i'd be opposed to giving squads outside of the shas'ui an upgraded weapon for fluff purposes and also because the standard carbine does double duty as a great anti-light infantry and mediocre anti-light vehicle. IMO, they should stay bs3 and all crisis suits should be bumped up to bs4 for no additional cost (they're overpriced as is).

Every other army can fight while mounted (edit: if they have transports), Tau can't because Rapid Fire guns only rapid fire within charge range, and at BS3 they can't kill everyone they shoot at.

All they need is a flamethrower imo. :3 A bunch of extra hits from within double-tap range and they are gold. Or, you can shoot markerlights at their target...but this is only a 'quickfix' to help their BS...and that's if the markerlight hits.

Thats not true at all. The most comparable transports are the eldar transports, and those do not have fire points either.

Give the 'ui the markerlight and bonding knife as free upgrades (or into the cost for the 'ui) and give the unit the ability to upgrade 1 FW to Railrifle for 10 pts.

This puts a 12 man squad with 'ui and 1 railrifle to 140pts or just 12 FW for 110pts. (keeping the cost for the DF the same will put this squad into 190-220pts range; which imho is about right).

I do agree FW have a very hard time doing much vs MEQ armies, and with the ability to DS hard units basically right next to the very squishy FW squads, it's going to hurt.

But, that's what the Kroot are for. Most people are taking the 100pts of Kroot because of the game mechanics of 5th ed.

I would like to see kroot just move to scout, infiltrate, and move through cover. You can scratch the extra +1 save deal as that isn't going to matter given terrain differences; unless you're going to let them carry around the Wood Elf Tree surfboard rule.

Firewarriors should be about 10 points base for the same statline and weapons they have now.

Bonding should be a single cost upgrade like Chaos Icons and confer stubborn to the unit.

They need to have a Combat Tactics type rule, but more reliable, like they can always fall back from a combat regardless of the assault.

Finally, Markerlights should be an assault weapon, and Marker Drones need to cost half what they do now.

Dracos wrote:Thats not true at all. The most comparable transports are the eldar transports, and those do not have fire points either.

I didn't mean fire-points, I mean drive 12" and shoot 12". Marines with BS4 bolt guns and a flamethrower will eat infantry alive, with a meltagun they have a shot at breaking just about any tank they run into. Eldar can shoot even more shots with say dire avengers. Even orks, with 12 shootaboyz can break most infantry under a hail of bullets. (And if that fails they aren't afraid to charge like Tau are) Edit: In short, when you jump out and shoot, you need to either overkill the target, or hurt it so bad that you can mop it up with a charge, Fire warriors can do neither.

Edit2: firewarriors as they are now, are actually better standing around at the back of the board, next to a unit of pathfinders. The two units can tag-team quite well, but this limits their combat mobility.

Mahu wrote:
Finally, Markerlights should be an assault weapon, and Marker Drones need to cost half what they do now.

I agree with you 100% on this. If you're going to make it where an army's success in shooting (a shooty army no less) hinges on markerlights and a BS3 shooting the markerlight, then by all means make it cheaper. This would keep with the fluff of poor sight..etc.

Markerlights should be what defines the Tau. Like Orders for IG, and Combat Squads/Tactics for SM.

I don't mean for them to be a required upgrade. But a Tau Army should be able to field a lot of move and shoot Markerlights, so they can plan their shooting phase.

It's like IG, a good IG player will issue the orders he needs and shoot in the order that best suits him. If a Tau army puts 9 - 15 Markerlights on the table, that just means good Tau players will plan their shooting phase accordinly.

That's why there should be no reason to up the basic statline of a Tau Firewarrior. They are simply too expensive now. It's not that Kroot are so good, it's that Firewarriors are so crappy.

But if they can use markerlights to boast a critical FoF, actually have the ability to maintain in a combat, can run in the enemies turn, and leave that assault unit suseptable to more shooting, then they have found their place.

The balance will be that they are still so poor in combat, they are probably going to get wiped out by the more nasty assault units in one round of combat, like they do now.

Tau is best comparable to IG, and the difference is that they are all about quality shooting over the IGs quantity of shooting.

All Fire Warriors need is to Rapid Fire at range 15 not 12.

This would be completely in accord with their long-range fighting philosophy (i.e. fluffy and flavoursome.) It would improve them against assault armies. It would make a new kind of tactics available. It would make them worth nearer the points they cost.

Eh, just let the devilfish deep strike, and both FW and the DF are fixed.
No points changes, no gear changes. Plus it fits the fluff, right? Why have a pressurized cabin, if you don't plan on using it?

All Firewarriors needs is to be able to upgrade to markerlights at +2-6 pts a model so I don't have to waste my FA slot on pathfinders.

Actually, I'm starting to rethink how effective fire warriors can FoF. While it's true they can't overkill the target, they CAN beat them down and due to new assault rules, they can run away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ2lJLCLw50

But if it were me fixing the firewarrior, yes, I'd make them somewhat cheaper no mater what else, you shouldn't pay so much for such crud combat stats (WS2!? BS3!?!? )

Kilkrazy wrote:All Fire Warriors need is to Rapid Fire at range 15 not 12.

This would be completely in accord with their long-range fighting philosophy (i.e. fluffy and flavoursome.) It would improve them against assault armies. It would make a new kind of tactics available. It would make them worth nearer the points they cost.

I find this to be an interesting solution.

The way the rapid fire rule works seem a bit weird to me. In my mind, it seems that rapid fire should always double tap at half max range of the weapon in question.