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Che-Vito wrote:

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
Wth, didn't you read the rest of my post, I clearly pointed out that either A, FW cost to much, or B need to be buffed.

My solution was to buff them. You cannot honestly tell me that crisis suites wouldnt have bs 4, I mean what do they not have that a basic grunt space marine has. Seriously.

I never disagreed with Crisis Suits as BS4, but the majority of your post otherwise was nonsense.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:I mean you have nothing to support your answer with. Just a flat, its overpowered what are you thinking. Honestly if they didnt have good guns, NO ONE would use them. At least I tried to point out a comparison between tau fw and space marine to support myself.

Supporting your points with false arguments doesn't count for much. Tau and Space Marines are quite uncomparable, in the fluff and on the board.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote: Oh and for Mr. fluff, if that were the case they would have better stats, because of all of there training. The only thing i can see them not having is a lower toughness and str, maybe lower ws, but that is not really true becuase they learn basic hand to hand early on. However, every other unit other than a shas'ui should have both better leadership and bs and ws.

Dont respond with a negative unless you can support it.

I will support my opinions fully, and refute yours, when I can understand what you're trying to say. Most of my opinions have been expressed over the two full threads about a Fandex for the Tau Empire, and have been rehashed multiple times.

To recap: there is no fluff that justifies giving the Fire Warriors better WS then Guardsmen. There is no fluff that suggests giving them better BS then Guardsmen (due to their eyesight) although a technological aid would make sense (a 4+ pt upgrade per model perhaps).

There is fluff that justifies the current WS for Fire Warriors, and there is fluff that justifies their current BS (although I think a piece of wargear that upgrades BS would also be appropriate, or some of us use Marker Drones.)

Once again you didnt read my post. I said either A. they should cost less or B. have better stats. I will somewhat concede, because of their eyesight, even though they all have special helmet that let them have acute sense, and networked digital displays, however the cost is to high and need to be reduced.

I am sure many would agree with my post.

I think one way to improve firewarriors would be for the shas'vre team leaders to carry Failsafe detonators. So if he dies or the squad falls back he fires it, and a str 6 large blast template is placed over him.

I also think FW squads be reduced 8 or 9 points per model and 20 models max.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:

I think one way to improve firewarriors would be for the shas'vre team leaders to carry Failsafe detonators. So if he dies or the squad falls back he fires it, and a str 6 large blast template is placed over him.

I also think FW squads be reduced 8 or 9 points per model and 20 models max.

Gotta disagree with you on both of these; if the 'ui could go kamikaze you'd see a ton of 6-man suicide units. 20 fish units don't fit the fluff that they have limited numbers as opposed to the other races.

I'm down with the earlier idea of double tapping at 15". I would also let them move back d6" during the assault phase even if they fired during shooting. It fits fluff and makes them similar to crisis suits, bringing a whole symetry to the army.

I've played a lot of Tau, and at this point I think the players who think they won't get a point decrease are incorrect.

Orks - cheaper, more options
IG - cheaper, more gear
SM - cheaper, more gear
SW - cheaper, more gear

They are going to get a points decrease. From a marketing standpoint it makes perfect sense. "Less points = More Models sold"
Here is a link to what I believe a 5th edition codex will look like

Below is what I imagine, based on the trends set in the above Codex, a new FW squad will be, as well as the other Troop Choices for the Tau.

Fire Warriors
60pts
5x Warriors + 1x Shas'Ui
May add up to 6x more warriors for 8pts a model
Class: Tau
Same stat line except all models have WS2 I2
Ui has BS4, LD8 and 1x Attack (not 2)

Equipment:
Photon & EMP Grenades, Pulse Rifle

Any model may swap Pulse Rifle for a Pulse Gun
Pulse Rifle = S5 AP5 Rapid Fire @ 36”
Pulse Gun = S5 AP5 Assault 2, Pinning @ 18”

'Ui has access to armory (BK, TA, DC, etc.)
If the 'Ui takes a drone controller, instead of Gun, Shield or Marker Drones, he may take 1 to 2 Sniper Drones @ 20pts each
A sniper drone has the stat line of a Gun Drone but is equipped with a Targeting Array and a Rail Rifle

Options:
If the squad contains 12 members, up to 2x models make take a Rail rifle @ 10pts each.
Rail rifle = S6 AP3 Heavy 1, Pinning @ 36" w/ Hardwired Target Lock
May take 1x Devilfish as Transport (see entry)
Up to 3 Fire Warrior Squads may be supported by a Sniper Drone Team Attachment (see below)

Sniper Drone Team
65 pts
3xSniper Drone
1x Controller
Class: Tau

Stat Line as per C:TE

Sniper Drone Equipment:
Stealth Field Generator
3x Rail Rifle
3x Targeting Array

Controller Equipment:
Stealth Field Generator
1x Network Marker Light
1x Targeting Array
1x Pulse Pistol

Options:
None
Sniper Drone Teams never count as Scoring
You may never take a Sniper Drone Team as it's own choice without a Fire Warrior Squad, and may never have more Sniper Drone Teams than Fire Warrior units

Fire Warrior Special Character Upgrades
Replace ‘Ui +60pts (SC has BS5, LD9)
Unit gains BS4
Unit gains Stubborn USR

(0-2) Gue'Vesa
70pts
9x Auxiliary + 1x Shas'Ui
Class: Auxiliary

Statlines = Auxiliary has basic Guard stat line
Ui has basic Tau statline with BS4, LD8

Equipment:
Lasgun
Lasgun = S3 AP- Rifles, Rapid fire @ 24"

‘Ui is equipped with Carbine or Rifle

‘Ui has access to armory (TA, DC, etc.),
May not take Bonding Knife

Options:
Squad maybe equipped with EMP for +1pt per model

"Other World" Rule
before each game roll a D3 and consult the chart:
Gue’Vesa gain
(1-2) Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Fleet USR
(3-4) 4+ Armor, Counter Attack, Defensive Grenades
(5-6) +1BS, weapon stats change to S4 AP- Assault 1, Pinning @ 24”

Followers of the Greater Good:
1x Unit of Fire Warriors or Pathfinders must be taken to include a unit of Gue’Vesa

Kroot Carnivore Squad
80pts
9x Kroot 1x Shaper
Class: Auxiliary

Statlines as per C:TE
Shaper has W2, A2 LD8

Auxiliary - Kroot Stat line
Equipment:
Kroot Rifle

Options:
May add up to 10 Kroot @ 7pts per
May add 0 to 10 Kroot Hounds @ 6pts per
May add 0 to 2 Krootox @ 35pts per

Kroot Hounds replace Kroot Rifle with Close Combat weapon
Krootox gain the Relentless USR
Krootox replace Kroot Rifle with Krootox Gun
Krootox Gun = S7 AP4 Heavy 2 @ 48"
Krootox may upgrade Kroot Gun to Bolt Thrower for 10pts
Bolt Thrower = S6 AP4 Heavy 4 @ 36" or S7 AP3 Heavy 1 Small Blast

Kroot Special Character Upgrades
Replace Shaper +80pts (A4)
Carnivore squad gains Fleet and Rending
Replace Shaper +90 (WS5 W3)
Carnivore squad gains Beast USR
Replace Shaper +50 (LD9)
Allow Team of Krootox 3-5 @35pts per to be taken as a Troop choice

Field Craft Special Rule: (No Change)
Followers of the Greater Good:
1x Unit of Fire Warriors or Pathfinders must be taken to include a unit of Kroot

Devilfish
60pts
Tank, Skimmer, Access points: 3

Stat line as C:TE

Equipment:
1x Burst cannon
1x Pair of Gun Drones

Options:
Access to Vehicle armory

(0-3) Pathfinders
50pts = 3x Pathfinder 1x Shas'Ui
May add up to 4x Pathfinders @ 10pts per
Scout USR
Class: Tau
Statline as Tau FW, so Ui has BS4, LD8, A1

Equipment:
Photon & EMP Grenades, Pulse Carbine, Marker light
Pulse Carbine = S5 AP5 Assault 1, Pinning @ 18”

‘Ui has access to armory (BK, TA, DC, etc.)
Options:
Up to 3x models may replace their Pulse Carbine & Marker Light with a Rail rifle @ 10pts each

Unit must take either a Devilfish as a dedicated transport or a unit of Tetra from the Fast Attack choice

The Devilfish chosen with the Pathfinders gains the following Special Rules & Options:
Class: Auxiliary Units may not ride in Devilfish
Forward Position: +40 pts may reroll reserve roll
Marker Beacon: (No Change)

Pathfinder Special Character Upgrades
Replace ‘Ui +50pts BS5
Grants Unit +1BS,
adds D3 Marker light hits per Turn

@ Paidinfull

The problem with attaching Sniper Drones to a Fire Warrior squad is that it ties them down for a turn if the Drones fire, which is contrary to the presented Tau fluff, and therefore is probably something we won't see. To be honest, I would pay 30 points a Drone if they could give us a drone with a Flamer. Hell I'd even pay 40.

@ paidinfull

So far, that is the most balanced and well thought out post on this topic yet. Unfortunately, the link didn't work for me 'cause I'm not about to sign up for google docs.

Cheers.

Che-Vito wrote:@ Paidinfull

The problem with attaching Sniper Drones to a Fire Warrior squad is that it ties them down for a turn if the Drones fire, which is contrary to the presented Tau fluff, and therefore is probably something we won't see. To be honest, I would pay 30 points a Drone if they could give us a drone with a Flamer. Hell I'd even pay 40.

@Che
I hear ya, but unfortunately I don't agree 100%.
The Tau army currently in game terms is built on a combination of Static & Mobile elements. It isn't unreasonable to have certain elements have the ability to become entirely static. One of the things that GW has done recently with their codex that I really do like is provide more options for players to create a variety of different game play experiences from one codex. If we went on the presumption that the Tau are an entirely mechanized race than I am of the opinion that even the basic stats on our Pulse Rifle should be changed. There would be no benefit to the increased range as we would never use it if we were mounted. It's important to stay truthful to the fluff but we shouldn't make a static build obsolete in a Tau army. I'm 100% against that. I've played mixed, and mech for awhile, and now with 5th am moving more to a Static build, but ultimately you can't make one. The reason is as you've pointed out numerous times in other threads we've chatted, is Marker lights. Pathfinders are the cheapest form of ML and they come with a vehicle, so even with 2 units of PF you are forced to taking 2 DF.

If you take a look at the crap I wrote, I focused more on putting together an army list that allowed you to take more ML:
5pts for units that have access to the armory
15pts for Marker Drones
Created an option to upgrade Gun Drones(FAST ATTACK) to a unit of Marker Drones for 10pts each

I think providing an option, that to me makes sense(I mean it is a drone for Pete's sake), for a basic FW squad, that would make them more of a static shooty unit is perfectly reasonable.

#Flamer drones
I do really like that idea a lot though. I'll play test it a bit and see how it would work.
At this point I am more inclined to add it as an option for the Gun Drone entry I have, but I'll have to play test it some.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:@ paidinfull

So far, that is the most balanced and well thought out post on this topic yet. Unfortunately, the link didn't work for me 'cause I'm not about to sign up for google docs.

Cheers.

Oh man! sorry mate!
I apologize and will fix it right away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@agnosto
I'm an idiot. I forgot to save it to allow others to view, I had just grabbed the link. I had only shared the Doc with 1x person and even if you were signed up with a Gmail account it wouldn't have worked. It should work now. Cheers!

@ paidinfull: The only thing that I think looks a little weird with the Firewarriors is the ability to put 4 heavy weapons into every troop choice. Thats alot of rail rifles you can easily field in a Tau army, which coupled with marker lights, tend to push them to the realm of overpowered. I'd have to play test it though to see the real effect but for roughly 175 points that it a very good troop choice. I think dropping the option for the handcarried rail rifles to retain the mobile feel but keeping the sniper drones makes a little more sense.

My fix

Pulse rifle: S5 Ap5 Range 30" Assault 2
Pulse carbine: S5 Ap5 Range 18" Assault 2 Ignore cover saves

Tau weapons are supposed to be move and fire, Tau prefer a fluid type of warfare and massed firepower at long range. This is less overpowered than it looks because Tau don't actually assault.
If it appears in any way overpowered Tau (but not kroot) should have a special rule by which they cannot shoot any weapon and assault in the same turn.
Carbines gain the ability to ignore cover saves due to the underslung grenade launcher.

paidinfull, I agree with most of what you posted. Just a few changes:

Sniper Drone Teams should be treated like IG heavy weapons teams. Separate Squads that can be purchased in addition to a Fire Warrior Squads. They should be scoring, because their ability to provide an extra Markerlight and park on an objective will be the only thing that makes them worth while. Rail Rifles are not particularly useful for shooting.

As you have it, a full 12 man Firewarrior Squad with 2 Marker Drones on a team leader that can fire at a seperate target is a good enough static unit. I doesn't fit their style to have Rail Rifles on the FW squad, unless they where assault weapons.

I am of the opinion that Tau where never a good totally static shooting force, and shouldn't play that way. They may have some static elements, but that doesn;t define how a Tau army hits the battlefield.

Yeah, okay. Firewarriors are entirely fine.

People nowadays play big, mechanized, krooted-out lists because of the current meta and people's thoughts on the advantages of mechanization. People are completely ignoring the fact that any tau unit in the game can get up to balistics skill 5, and then procede to shred the enemy with their incredibly powerful weapons

instead of buffing fire warriors, how about you take some bloody markerlights instead and quit whining? pathfinder team with four markerlights = lots o bs 5 shots from stupidly strong guns. Sky Rays and marker-drone sargeants are good for this too. Fire warriors MUST be as expensive as they are as they may synergize with markerlights, and thus have far higher balistics skill than marines, to the point where they nearly never miss, in addition to having +1 str, and longer range.

Orlanth wrote:
Carbines gain the ability to ignore cover saves due to the underslung grenade launcher.

I thought it was the markerlight.

PanzerLeader wrote:@ paidinfull: The only thing that I think looks a little weird with the Firewarriors is the ability to put 4 heavy weapons into every troop choice. Thats alot of rail rifles you can easily field in a Tau army, which coupled with marker lights, tend to push them to the realm of overpowered. I'd have to play test it though to see the real effect but for roughly 175 points that it a very good troop choice. I think dropping the option for the handcarried rail rifles to retain the mobile feel but keeping the sniper drones makes a little more sense.

@panzerLeader
Excellent input.

I'd thought about the FW for a bit, before I put together my current build and I'm glad you mentioned the rail rifles as it happens to be a subject I'm a little torn on.

A lot of Tau players, myself included, are anti HW in FW squads. However, where I differ is that IMO the Path Finders are also Fire Warriors in the fluff, and they currently have the ability to field 3x Rail rifles. That being said, I felt it more than a little odd that the basic FW unit wouldn't have access to them once the field testing would be complete. Unfortunately I can't recall the posters name but they felt the Rail Rifle was the equivalent of a sniper rifle, and the argument was it belonged exclusively in the PF unit.

In the fluff it's actually being field tested by the PF units before greater circulation, and is the same technology as the Rail gun, with a smaller punch. That being said, considering the changes from the 3rd Edition codex to the 4th edition, they actually added in a few "field tested" elements. I took that logic to the next step and said, "Ok in 5th since they were being 'tested' in 4th, they are now available for mass production". In the changes I made to the 4th Ed codex, I took those logic steps in other units as well.

Before I babble too much (clearly I enjoy this discussion ), I'll post what my first FW unit was.

The first rendition was:
- If the squad contains 6 members, up to 2x models make take a Rail rifle @ 10pts each.
- If the squad contains 12 members, up to 4x models make take a Rail rifle @ 10pts each.
o Rail rifle = S6 AP3 Heavy 1, Pinning @ 36" w/ Hardwired Target Lock

And at first pass the Pathfinders did not have a rail rifle option. I wanted their role to be support only, but then their role became way too diminished.

I then though that being able to add Sniper Drones to a FW was a good concept and wanted to limit the potential of 6x Rail Rifles in a squad, which I felt, combined with my rules for ML would make 6x pinning shots too powerful. Which I agree would be way too much.

@173pts from my changes you would get
9x FW w/ PR (notice the range is now 36" instead of 30")
2x FW w/ RR
1x Ui w/ BK + DC
2x Sniper Drones
so 14 models total

At range against a MeQ unit in cover that will yield 1.15 Kills from the PR, and .83 kills for the Rail Rifle shots.

Now currently you are able to remove cover 100% with Tokens. I made it so that 1 token reduces the Cover Save to 6+ which only Going to Ground can improve, not Stealth. The cover removal only moves it to 1.11 kills for the rail shots.
I also adjusted the shooting tokens now making weapons count as TL. So lets say you are able to use 2x ML tokens to remove cover and TL your weapons.
1.7 Kills from PR
1.67 Kills from RR


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:paidinfull, I agree with most of what you posted. Just a few changes:

Sniper Drone Teams should be treated like IG heavy weapons teams. Separate Squads that can be purchased in addition to a Fire Warrior Squads. They should be scoring, because their ability to provide an extra Markerlight and park on an objective will be the only thing that makes them worth while. Rail Rifles are not particularly useful for shooting.

As you have it, a full 12 man Firewarrior Squad with 2 Marker Drones on a team leader that can fire at a seperate target is a good enough static unit. I doesn't fit their style to have Rail Rifles on the FW squad, unless they where assault weapons.

I am of the opinion that Tau where never a good totally static shooting force, and shouldn't play that way. They may have some static elements, but that doesn;t define how a Tau army hits the battlefield.

You and I are on the same page with the HWT only I am treating them as actual HWT not HW upgrades.
1x 6 man FW squad + 2x Sniper Drone
now you can take
1x Sniper Drone Team = 1x Controller 3x Sniper Drone
You can have up to 3 Sniper Drone teams this way and they are no longer in the overburdened HEAVY Slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nachturnus wrote:Yeah, okay. Firewarriors are entirely fine.

People nowadays play big, mechanized, krooted-out lists because of the current meta and people's thoughts on the advantages of mechanization. People are completely ignoring the fact that any tau unit in the game can get up to balistics skill 5, and then procede to shred the enemy with their incredibly powerful weapons

instead of buffing fire warriors, how about you take some bloody markerlights instead and quit whining? pathfinder team with four markerlights = lots o bs 5 shots from stupidly strong guns. Sky Rays and marker-drone sargeants are good for this too. Fire warriors MUST be as expensive as they are as they may synergize with markerlights, and thus have far higher balistics skill than marines, to the point where they nearly never miss, in addition to having +1 str, and longer range.

The ability to benefit from a Marker Light is like the Marines ability to benefit from Combat Tactics or the IG's ability to benefit from Orders. This is something that is not 100% included in the cost of either unit, and makes your reasoning IMO less sound for leaving them at current cost.
I concur that the unit does not need a buff, however, cost to ability wise mathematically makes Kroot a better shooty option than the fire warriors. Until you take 4x PF and are at 170pts Kroot still out shoot a FW unit per point. I have discussed this until I'm blue in the face on ATT and here, so please understand that this isn't opinion it's actual fact.
You get better shooting from Kroot for the points until you have 4x PF and a 12x man unit of FW @ roughly 168pts.

Fire warriors are not "entirely fine".
@10pts a pop they are way too expensive when considered what else is out there.

Marker lights are an integral part of the Tau army but as a Tau player you are handicapped by the fact that your most cost effective way to take ML is via PF. Well guess what. a bare bones unit of Marker Lights for a Tau army is 128pts, for 4x ML. 30pts for a Ui with a ML is ridiculous, especially if he is BS3. The cost of Marker Drones is ridiculous as they are essentially 40pts in a basic squad. No my friend. FW are way too expensive and the wargear the army is based on is destined to fail because the quality of shooting will never, ever make up for the volumes of fire that other armies can throw out cheaper and more effectively.

I see little problem being able to field 4 Rail Rifles in a FW Squad. FWs are supposed to be shooty. With Dark Eldar, I can field 2 Dark Lances and 2 Blasters in one 10-man unit. DE are definitely shooty if they want to be, but Tau should be shootier.

@ paidinful: Ok, so I'm too lazy to seperate out everything you wrote in response and quote it. But the mathhammer is oddly reassuring. And I tend to agree that outside of perhaps DE, Tau should be the army most capable of spamming pinning weapons. Really fits the whole fix, circle and destroy feel of the Tau fluff. My only reservation is how powerful a list with say 3 pathfinder squads, 3 firewarrior squads, and several crisis suits plays against assault armies. Orks and Chaos can have alot of fearless, so it might be moot. I see alot of potential synergy here which could be devestating when played well. Good for Tau fluff, just worried how it balances. It looks about right on paper but I'd have to field test it first.

kuro_khan wrote:I see little problem being able to field 4 Rail Rifles in a FW Squad. FWs are supposed to be shooty. With Dark Eldar, I can field 2 Dark Lances and 2 Blasters in one 10-man unit. DE are definitely shooty if they want to be, but Tau should be shootier.

Wow, interesting observation. I hadn't considered comparing them to DE.

18x Warriors w/ 2x Blaster + 2x DL = 174
12x FW w/ 2x SD + 2x RR (Ui has BK) = 173

VS MeQ in Cover

@24"+
FW = 1.15 Kills from the PR, and .83 kills for the Rail Rifle shots
DE = 1.04 kills from the SR, and .56 kills for the DL. (blasters are out of range)

@12"
FW = 2.30 Kills from the PR, .83 kills for the RR shots
DE = 2.07 Kills from the SR, 1.10 kills from the DL & BL

Other items to consider:
FW -
are able to regroup below half.
have a better armor save 4+
have defensive grenades
have EMP grenades
cause Pinning
can benefit from ML tokens

DE -
have a High Initiative (5)
better WS(4) for Offense and Defense
better weapons against vehicles
4x weapons are AP2
have the Fleet USR

I feel shooting the FW will do better when you consider the ML rules:
I've added: TL weapons, 6+ cover, Pinning easier, Weapons gain pinning.
Though currently they do look pretty even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:@ paidinful: Ok, so I'm too lazy to seperate out everything you wrote in response and quote it. But the mathhammer is oddly reassuring. And I tend to agree that outside of perhaps DE, Tau should be the army most capable of spamming pinning weapons. Really fits the whole fix, circle and destroy feel of the Tau fluff. My only reservation is how powerful a list with say 3 pathfinder squads, 3 firewarrior squads, and several crisis suits plays against assault armies. Orks and Chaos can have alot of fearless, so it might be moot. I see alot of potential synergy here which could be devestating when played well. Good for Tau fluff, just worried how it balances. It looks about right on paper but I'd have to field test it first.

hehehe
Yeah it's Friday and I'm enjoying our conversation.

One of the things that I might have made it too ridiculous in my ML token rules, is Pinning effects.
I really am of the mindset that Tau should be an army that excels with Pinning it's opponents. Rather than get annihilated in HTH, focused fire should attempt to suppress advancing assault units. There are enough rules out there currently that allow an army to break pinning fairly easily.

Basic Combat Tactics: Choose to Fail the morale check = Pinning is negated
The general effect is you have forced the opponents advance back

Get Back in the Fight: Rally immediately and able to fire = Pinning is removed in the shooting phase
The general effect is the IG commander had to use an Order

Fearless units = Ignore Pinning

Now, having BS5 Rail Rifles that COMPLETELY ignore Cover and can stack negative pinning modifiers on top is just plain mean. Hence, I went with a simpler(at least I perceive it to be), 1 token = 1 effect, rather than the cumulative effects the current codex has.

@ paidinfull: It looks solid. Simplified Marker Light tokens will help alot. I'll try and see if I can get one of the Tau guys to play test your army list and post the results. I just see alot of potentially lethal synergy effects but have found the only way to know for sure is to get it on the table and see how it plays out in a dynamic situation. And you make an excellent point of how most shooty armies have a way to negate the general pinning effects.

@panzerleader
Thanks for the input

I'm glad you like the concepts, as I did put quite a bit of thought into it. I will say it pretty much is just a mental exercise as the rule set I've created isn't something I imagine GW will go and say "Oh someone wrote a ruleset that makes sense for us. Let's just go ahead and use it."

Of the ML rules I have:
Each marker light token used per unit firing at a lit Target grants:

All weapons in the unit firing at the target fire as if they were Twin Linked, , if all weapons are already Twin Linked add +1 BS to the unit instead. If a unit contains a mix of Twin Linked Weapons and some that are Not. add +1 BS. This effect may not be used multiple times by the same unit

Reduce all Cover Saves the Target may have to 6+. The Stealth USR can not be used to improve this cover save.

All weapons from the unit that are firing at the target gain the Pinning type in addition to their other types. Multiple instances of Pinning type on a weapon have no additional effect.

The marker lit unit halves its leadership, rounding up and adding 1, for the purposes of it's next pinning test.

Ignore the effects of Night fight, or any other similar rule that requires rolling to see/target a unit, when firing at the Target

Fire a single Seeker Missile that hits on a 2+

A single model in the unit, or a weapon system on a vehicle, may target the marked target in addition to their normal declared target

I am thinking perhaps having the "Multiple instances of Pinning Type" being changed so that they are now able to "Pin" a unit that is normally not susceptible to being pinned, Fearless for example, but not allowing this effect to benefit from the leadership modifier

I'd love to hear any comments regarding testing the rule set, and I'm glad you think it's fairly balanced on paper.

There are some effects that I see being incredibly nasty.
For example Fish O Fury with FWs with Pulse Guns. Jump out, shoot up the unit, and attempt to pin them easier. Playing against it could be pretty annoying as theoretically you could have a few units that get pinned, hurting the out put of your army, but there aren't any armies that currently play a "controlling style" like I'm suggesting which I think will make for a very interesting change in the Meta game. It's kinda like a Blue Magic deck, with Pinning being the "Remand" which stalls a unit for a turn until it can or should be dealt with.

paidinfull wrote:
I am thinking perhaps having the "Multiple instances of Pinning Type" being changed so that they are now able to "Pin" a unit that is normally not susceptible to being pinned, Fearless for example, but not allowing this effect to benefit from the leadership modifier

Man would that be nice; I regularly play vs. a nurgle friend and the fearless stuff gets old.

March....march....march..... (while I'm shooting him up and down).
1 powerfist character from the unit gets to my gunline and kills them all.

I'd have to actually try out the rules you've proposed, but I'm all for an easier set of ML rules.

I like what you've posted prior as well.

@agnosto
Were you able to see the Doc after I fixed the link?

I think it makes sense. If a weapon already has the Pinning Type (Rail rifles for example) a wound inflicted by that weapon could force a Fearless unit to test regardless.

While I wanted to get away from the cumulative effect, I think having -2 per token towards pinning is better than the current effect. Then Stubborn units could ignore it. At the moment they are still effected, something I don't like.

Another thing I hadn't considered before about one of the ML abilities is:
Twin Linking Large Blast Templates.

The Tau Expansion Codex currently allows for a few units to take Large Blast Templates, for example the XV-82 (an elites choice based on the Forge World XV-9) can take the AFP. Twin Linking 6x LBT at S4 is nasty. That with the idea of TL Sub munition rounds is also effective with the effects other tokens.

I'm of the belief that the shooting from a Tau army should be more focused, but with these new thoughts some changes might be necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I'd have to actually try out the rules you've proposed, but I'm all for an easier set of ML rules.

I like what you've posted prior as well.

Thank you very much for the compliment.


Definitely helped make my Friday.

Considering how Combat Tactics was simplified and Orders were as well, the idea of having tokens function cumulatively seems like it will probably go away.

GW wants to make the game easier to play for new players but still fairly challenging for experienced gamers.

I think using multiple tokens as it currently stands is pretty awful, but that is because it is so hard to get ML into a variety of lists. PF don't work well in Mech lists as they are static, hence I came up with the FAST ATTACK: Gun Drone upgrade to Marker Drones. Relentless, JSJ Marker lights. Fairly pricey @ 80pts for 4x BS3 Marker Lights, but it helps make less of a hybrid list possible. Conversely, a full static list is now viable, as you could theoretically take 3x ML for 85pts in a FW squad, on @ BS4.

One of the things that was suggested on ATT was the potential of having 2 types of Marker Light effects.
1 standard set and 1 New Set that involves a "Tau Network".
I don't really want to repost everything from over there to here, but the general concept was:
If an enemy unit was hit by a marker light from a Pathfinder Unit, a single token can be used to place an effect on that target.
Then any Tau unit that had a "Network Drone"(bought from the Armory) could benefit from that effect.
On the one hand you were getting great results from the "Network Ability" but with wound allocation you risked getting knocked off the network and not being able to use the tokens. It was a great concept I had intended on including in my work but I hadn't fully play tested what was currently upgraded. Once I had done that, then I felt I could try the new "Network"

paidinfull wrote:@agnosto
Were you able to see the Doc after I fixed the link?

Yes, I was able to see it. I can tell you've put a great deal of time and effort into this and it shows. I would caution you; however, to be careful and not to overpower anything. We all have our wishlists but I would like to see some things; some of which may not be overly powerful:

1. Heavy flamers for suits
2. Kroot with a little more variety than just kroot, shaper, hound, ox. A kroot sgt. would be a nice middle ground and some wargear specifically for kroot would be nice too (equivalent to power weapons possibly or maybe something that gives their close combat attacks have an AP equivalent).
3. drones not affecting leadership tests but be non-scoring. (who cares if a drone goes down?).

I think if I could choose anything, #3 is tops on my wishlist.

Wow, you know, the idea of drones as wargear affecting Morale is something I had not considered before. It does make sense.

#Overpowering
I play quite a few armies:
10k of Guard
4k of SM
5k of Eldar
6k of Orks
4.5k of Tau

My 2 personal favorites are Tau & IG. Tau probably because I'm an anime head, and I've won a few local tournies with them. That being said, my hope is to make them competitive with the current releases for 5th edition but not to make them ridiculous. Ultimately I recognize that any wishlists are something I would have to play against as well. So I try to think about what would be competitive against the units.

The Tau were a very powerful army in 4th and definitely got hit with a bit of a nerf stick. "THE" unit in the codex, Crisis Suits, became much more susceptible to Instant Death, which really effected their cost.

One of the things I attempted to do when I started on the Codex was to make HTH hurt much more for Tau, with Universal WS2&I2 for the current Tau models. It never made sense to me that a "Sgt" for the Tau would be better at HTH than at shooting. Stealth, Crisis, Broad, all get +1WS, +1I which makes no sense.
Initiative 2. That's it.
Weapon Skill 2, unless you are a commander.

The few lists I have built aren't even close to where I thought they would be, but I haven't made a "spammy" cookie cutter list yet, which I need to do.

#Kroot
I added Special Character Upgrades that I felt help change how the Kroot play. It also allows a player to build a Kroot Mercenary style list fairly easily.
I also allowed Krootox to Infiltrate, which didn't make much sense before, and gave them a boost to their weapon options. That combined with Knarlocs in the Heavy support, I think will make Kroot Mercenary players very excited about the potential from the codex.

#Heavy Flamers
I've opted to try and allow for more AFP instead of Heavy Flamers.
For Example:
Tension suit = 1x 88pts
WS&BS=3
S&T=5 (so better vs ID)
I = 3
W = 2
SV = 3+/4++
2x AFP so (S4 AP5 18" Assault 1, LBT, Ignores Cover)
Blacksun filter, Emp Grenade

Now 2x TL LBT that ignore cover is pretty nasty on paper. But having 3 suits like that = 284pts so it's crazy expensive
So, while you would absolutely decimate a Horde if you were able to drop those 6x LBT, a single round from any S10 would wipe out the unit like that, and any HTH would make them disappear.

@paidinfull

I like your simplified ML changes (its something I've said was needed for a while) although they don;t go as far as I would like (getting rid of using counters!), the only thing I would change on yours specifically is the cover save reduction, I'd recommend a re-roll of successful cover saves like the IG order, that way its effect is equivalent versus all terrain types and not magically better against bunkers then long grass.

As to the question of Firewarriors I have two opinions:

1. As they stand now a unit of 12 firewarriors with rifles, squad leader and a bonding knife riding in a devilfish feel as if it ought to cost about 150 points for the lot.

2. I'd like to see pathfinders rolled into Firewarriors and firewarriors left with 3 equipment load outs, all of which would apply to the whole squad and be priced accordingly: Pulserifes, railrifles, and Carbine+markerlight. This again predicates on no large changes to the rules for any of those weapon types or the rest of the army.

For the Tau army changes in general I've suggested before that I'd like to see some sort of unit bonus rules built around the concept of increased interoperability of units in the army, rather like IG orders, but unit to unit instead of top down, i.e. Firewarriors have the 'markerlights' rule: any unit firing at a squad previously hit by a Firewarrior unit that shooting phase counts its weapons as twin-linked. With each Tau unit having a different bonus it can provide its fellows.

Jack

Illeix wrote:Yes, Tau need an update, right after DE, Necrons, DH and WH.

I think you will find that DE, Necrons, DH & WH players are in for a rude shock.

Hey.. I play DE, Necrons and DH...

I think people are forgetting that Shas'ui's can take a Drone Controller which could give them 2 Sniper Drones which make up for the lack of the heavy weapons.

The only drones Shas'uis can take are marker, gun and shield drones.

I think he was referring to the option in an updated codex kuro_khan.
The precedent is already here, just needs to be expanded to sniper drones.

Ah, I thought he was arguing against giving FW Rail Rifles because they could get sniper drones. My apologies. I like the idea of sniper drones, but I still thing FW should be able to carry them. Tau are supposed to be the shootiest army, yet the basic troops can't get heavies? Yea yea, suits.... but suits are pricey and fragile, I want Troop mounted heavies that I can protect with ablative wounds.

kuro_khan wrote:Ah, I thought he was arguing against giving FW Rail Rifles because they could get sniper drones. My apologies. I like the idea of sniper drones, but I still thing FW should be able to carry them. Tau are supposed to be the shootiest army, yet the basic troops can't get heavies? Yea yea, suits.... but suits are pricey and fragile, I want Troop mounted heavies that I can protect with ablative wounds.

QFT