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One way to allow more firewarriors to get uses out of the limited number of markerlights is just to allow marker hits to stay on the target unit for the entirety of the shooting phase. You get four ML hits on a unit, then every tau unit shooting at marked unit can use 4 marker hits anyway they choose.

The only exception would be seeker missile fire. You loose a marker hit if you launch a seeker. Its a balance issue.

Jayden63 wrote:
The only exception would be seeker missile fire. You loose a marker hit if you launch a seeker. Its a balance issue.

I think that as long as the seeker missile themselves are single shot weapons that would mitigate it adequately.

Fixing the markerlight rules in general (which I think they need from a design perspective if nothing else) is a different (long) discussion.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:@paidinfull

I like your simplified ML changes (its something I've said was needed for a while) although they don;t go as far as I would like (getting rid of using counters!), the only thing I would change on yours specifically is the cover save reduction, I'd recommend a re-roll of successful cover saves like the IG order, that way its effect is equivalent versus all terrain types and not magically better against bunkers then long grass.

As to the question of Firewarriors I have two opinions:

1. As they stand now a unit of 12 firewarriors with rifles, squad leader and a bonding knife riding in a devilfish feel as if it ought to cost about 150 points for the lot.

2. I'd like to see pathfinders rolled into Firewarriors and firewarriors left with 3 equipment load outs, all of which would apply to the whole squad and be priced accordingly: Pulserifes, railrifles, and Carbine+markerlight. This again predicates on no large changes to the rules for any of those weapon types or the rest of the army.

For the Tau army changes in general I've suggested before that I'd like to see some sort of unit bonus rules built around the concept of increased interoperability of units in the army, rather like IG orders, but unit to unit instead of top down, i.e. Firewarriors have the 'markerlights' rule: any unit firing at a squad previously hit by a Firewarrior unit that shooting phase counts its weapons as twin-linked. With each Tau unit having a different bonus it can provide its fellows.

Jack

You know... creating a fun and inventive rule set is actually pretty challenging.
I really thought about how to make a rule set without the counters and tried to create something similar to Orders but I found... the Tokens really do help to set aside who the Tau are and how they play.

It was pretty hard for me to come up with something that I felt was different enough from other races but still easy to follow. In the end, I felt that the tokens were a good concept, but needed to be more dumbed down, IE 1 or 2 effects rather than the cumulative use.

I completely agree that your assessment regarding grass vs bunkers was something I had missed. I tend to play with only 4+ terrain, and that was my mistake.
The downside to re-rolling cover is that IG already have that rule, and from what I have seen the races (even SW to SM) are fairly unique.
I'll think about it some and see if I can't come up with something better.

You know... I actually just had a pretty good idea while I typed that.
What if the system was based around PURCHASING effects with the tokens?

Markerlight Rules
Multiple effects may be purchased from each section providing obviously there are enough tokens to achieve the desired effects. For example, 1 unit has been hit with 5 markerlights. 3 tokens may be used to Purchase from the Shooting effects +1BS for all units firing at ML unit. In addition, 2x units may use 1 ML token to force a re-roll of successful covers. Also note, all shooting happens simultaneously so a markerlight token from a markerlight fired from within the same squad cannot be used by the squad firing, with the exception of a Network Marker Light (Marker Drone).

SHOOTING
1 Token = 1x Unit counts their weapons as being Twin linked, if the unit is already comprised of TL weapons add +1BS instead. If the unit is mixed, some TL'd some not, treat each instance separately, ie suit w/ Twin-linked Missile Pods gains +1BS, while suit with Missile Pod + Plasma gains Twin linked.
2 Tokens = 1x Unit counts their weapons as being Twin linked and gain +1BS, if the unit is already comprised of TL weapons add +2BS instead. If the unit is mixed, some TL'd some not, treat each instance separately, ie suit w/ Twin-linked Missile Pods gains +2BS, while suit with Missile Pod + Plasma gains Twin linked & +1BS.
3 Tokens = All units count as firing at +1 BS when firing at Lit unit

COVER
1 Token = Successful cover saves made by the Lit unit against 1x unit are re-rolled.
2 Tokens = No Covers are allowed by the Lit unit from shooting against 1x unit
3 Tokens = Successful cover saves made against all units are re-rolled

PINNING
1 Token = 1x unit counts their weapons as Pinning, if a weapon already has the "Pinning" type, wounds inflicted by those weapons force a unit to take the Pinning test, even if that result is normally automatic, ie. Fearless)
2 Tokens = If the unit takes a pinning test from 1x unit they do so @ -4 LD (USR:Stubborn would ignore this effect)
3 Tokens = All units firing at Lit unit count their weapons as Pinning

SEEKERS
1 Token = 1x Seeker missile may be fired at BS6
2 Tokens = 1x Seeker Missile may be fired at BS6 and that Missile gains the Ordnance rule (2d6 pick highest)
3 Tokens = 1x Seeker Missile may be fired at BS6 and that Missile gains the Ordnance rule and also gains +1 on the damage result

SPECIAL
1 Token = 1x unit may ignore the effects of Night Fight or similar rules (Stealth Generator, Veil of Tears) on Lit unit
1 Token = 1x model in a unit, or 1x weapon system on a vehicle, may target the marked target in addition to their normal declared target (this is intended to function like Target Lock)
1 Token = 1x unit may re-roll the scatter die when a unit is Deep Striking within 6" of the Lit Unit.

In addition Infantry units with Markerlights have the following rule:
Markerlight Targeting
A model with a markerlight may assist with the accuracy of a unit Deep Striking. Provided that the model did not move in the previous movement phase, it may substract it's BS from the scatter of a single Deep Striking unit. The model may not move in the movement phase, even if it has the Relentless USR, nor may it fire in the shooting phase as all of its focus was on assisting in the other unit's arrival. The model may run in the shooting phase, however, and may, if applicable, assault or execute a jetpack jump move in the assault phase. The other members in the unit may fire as normal provided the model that used the Markerlight Targeting was equipped with a Target Lock.

When considering the Seeker Missile suggestions keep in mind that I am also suggesting they gain Type:Barrage so that they:
1) Cause pinning and
2) Always hit side armor on Vehicles.

1) 150pts for Fish + 12x FW? Way too little, my friend. As it stands they are 168 in my book, but that is considering they have Defensive Grenades and the EMP grenades which are actually pretty awesome just rarely used due to cost.

2) I think forcing a player into 3 builds is a little unrealistic. It definitely simplifies things but I think too much.
I have a few builds available in my Codex.
1) Small(6) scoring FW unit in a Fish.
2) Medium(8-12) Assault 2 @18" squad in a Fish
3) Small(6) ML enabled unit with 2x Drones + ML
4) Small(6) Fire support unit with 2x Sniper Drones
5) Large(14) Fire Support unit with 2x Sniper Drones + 2x Rail rifles

Pathfinders
1) Small(4) scoring PF unit in a Fish.
2) Small(4) marker light unit
3) Small(4) Fire Support unit with 3x Rail rifles
4) Large(8) marker light unit

I like the idea of MLs auto hitting. I would think they could work something like what paidinfull is saying where you get tokens; however, I would say that a finite amount would be available per ML in the unit. Say for example you purchase 3 MLs for a unit, you get 3 tokens; once they're used, that's it. To use the ML, you designate a model(s) in the unit that are firing the MLs instead of shooting that turn and then place them on the target (within range); if they misjudge range, they lose the ML token. My way, MLs would autohit but have limited "charges" vs. the IG rolling for success of orders but unlimited usage.

Well, truthfully, I had not intended for it to be read that they would not require a "To Hit" roll.

IG are limited by:
# of Senior Officers
# of Junior Officers
# of Available Units to Receive Orders

IG are a shooty army but should be a "volume of shots" army not a "quality of shots" army as the Tau are.

Theoretically an IG army can issue any where from 2-14 orders a turn.

Now, that's not saying "the old way is better" but if you assign a number of "tokens" per ML then you diminish some of the value of taking other units as well as their current battlefield function. If you make the hits auto, and each ML bought guarantees a token, the role for PF changes substantially and becomes incredibly diminished.

3rd Edition = 1 model could fire 1 weapon at BS5
4th Edition = 1 unit could fire @ +1BS

I think it's a logical conclusion that you now have a way to increase army wide BS via ML for 5th.

I guess the thing I hate about the MLs is that most of the other army's have a gauranteed or nearly gauranteed special ability.

Tau are already handicapped in that they don't have any psychic abilities or protection from those abilities (I do love two psykers duking it out).

Sure an IG order can fail and sure a psychic power can fail but it's a much smaller chance than the 50% of shooting a ML AND are more potent; orbital bombardment or like abilities just make current MLs look completely worthless.

I'm not sure that I agree that the PFs would have a diminished role; I love popping in behind my enemy on turn 2 or 3 with them and popping dreads and tanks with rear railrifle shots, to me that is much more useful and scouting and having a 50% chance to drop a ML on a unit. If nothing else, my less than 200pt PF team offers a real reason for an opponent to turn part of his force around to deal with them thus freeing up my crisis suits to do the job I paid them for, hunting big game and slowing down assaults. The last game I played, I popped a dread and a rhino full of plague marines this way BEFORE they got to my firewarrior line.

I usually don't even bother taking MLs any more for the simple fact that I like to plan strategy and remove as much unknown as possible and creating an army list that depends on MLs is just asking for failure.

agnosto wrote:I guess the thing I hate about the MLs is that most of the other army's have a gauranteed or nearly gauranteed special ability.

Tau are already handicapped in that they don't have any psychic abilities or protection from those abilities (I do love two psykers duking it out).

Sure an IG order can fail and sure a psychic power can fail but it's a much smaller chance than the 50% of shooting a ML AND are more potent; orbital bombardment or like abilities just make current MLs look completely worthless.

That is something that also makes them unique, and I personally would not like to see them gain any psychic abilities/defenses. However, that is just me, and perhaps everyone should have a little bit of it.

SM Combat Tactics = Guaranteed
IG Orders = Not guaranteed
Orks = Guaranteed
Nids Synapse = Not Guaranteed
SOB Faith = Not Guaranteed
CSM Legions = Guaranteed / Not Guaranteed (Icons)
Necrons = Guaranteed / Not Guaranteed (No Orb)

I hear where you are coming from, but a large part of me feels that the reason you think that is because it is so hard to get Marker Lights into a list as they currently are.
Fire Warriors - 30pts to get a Marker light. 40pts if you want it in drone form.
Path Finders - Comes with an expensive Vehicle
Stealth - 15 points for 1x ML
Sky Ray - Uses a heavy slot for 2x ML
Snipers - Uses a heavy slot for 1x ML

Those really aren't good options. The standard ML should be cheaper as you are sacrificing a shot for potential as should the drones. Also if you are only going to have a few in a list you are going to want to be able to get the most use out of them and 2x ML hits really isn't going to get you far.

Conceptually the 4th Edition Marker Light rules are fantastic.
The problem is how they implemented the system. It's too impractical to spend points on ML if 1/3 of the missions they don't start on the table, and are forced to buy what is now, an over priced vehicle.

With IG being able to ignore cover. Marines having a 30" range round in their Sternguard @ AP4 no less. The 5th Ed version of Tau just needs a few tweaks for it to be really competitive again. Sure, I added in more units and more rules to the Codex, but all it really needs is a change in points cost for Fire Warriors and Marker lights, and I honestly feel you'd see a huge change in their effectiveness.

The hardest thing in making Tau competitive again is the fluff; GW has written themselves into a corner by making 5th edition all about close combat and the Tau a primarily shooty army.

I honestly feel they'll have to come up with something that helps the tau stop assaults because on a standard size table you've got MEQs in your face by turn 3 even if you pop their transports.

I agree they need some tweaks for 5th edition but it'll be difficult to stay in fluff and help them enough when nearly every army is close combat oriented. Honestly, you could lose the MLs and still be within fluff; poor eyesight? Those helmets have enough electronics in them to help a bat see in the daytime. The fluff talks about how the Tau are more adaptive than the emperium and willing to use technology to overcome their weaknesses but then the codex writers didn't create anything to help successful in close combat.

Sure the fluff basically says they abhor close combat but they're a successful race and not stupid, they know there will be combat situations where close combat is unavoidable, why not give them some tools to help out?

Even eldar have close combat units; why not a tau close combat specialist squad? There's no way an advanced race would hinge their lives on mercenaries like the kroot so it just makes sense that they would have some sort of special forces unit; think a xv15 with a "plasma blade" (power weapon) and WS3.

Meh, I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

I don't think Tau should have any CC forces. O'Shovah was the odd-ball of the Tau by even caring about close combat. What if they made CC drones?

I think Tau lose their interest if they become another close combat army with added 4+ saves or something.

Combat Drones would just become another reason not to spend money on Fire Warriors or Pathfinders.

There are two ways to stop being assaulted -- better mobility and better firepower.

A third way is to have some special rule which let's you react move away from assaults, something like that. I don't like that idea actually.

I have seen mentioned somewhere that you could have gun drones suicide into a charging unit to stop them or something of the sort.

(This would be similar to the failsafe detonator) Move the gun drones into combat in front of the tau, and center small blast markers over them. Make it a decent strength (like 5 or 6), resolve it before combat starts, and have it count toward combat resolution.

Or suicide them, and the tau get to voluntarily fall back. The assaulting unit stops because they have to avoid the banzi drone/s, thus giving the tau a chance to break for it. it makes sense because SM can voluntarily fail a leadership check, so why not make the tau be able to voluntarily fall back. The counter is that you have to suicide the gun drone/s to break away. This way there is a benefit and a downfall to doing it. Maybe even make a restriction that you can only do it if you have two gun drones, because they ignore one as not a big threat.

IMO it fits in the fluff because the tau know when to retreat, and they have the technology to create autonomous drones. Why not sacrifice them to avoid combat and save the Tau from having to fight. Not to mention it will actually give some real value to gun drones other than the off chance that you may pin something. Think about it, shield drones have an invul and the same tough/save as the user, marker drones provide a ML that can be used by any unit, marker drones have two guns that rarely hit even with twin linked.

How do regular gun drones compare with kroot for blocking assaults? Anyone try a gun drone in CC?

kuro_khan wrote:How do regular gun drones compare with kroot for blocking assaults? Anyone try a gun drone in CC?

Inevitably we all have because crisis suit units get assaulted. You don't want a drone as first choice in assaults but I've had them actually cause wounds before; not enough to win a combat or anything but a flying piece of metal can do some damage and initiative 3 doesn't suck.

Well, it takes 3 MEQ hits to down an unarmored kroot and 4.5 to down a frisbee. Frisbees are 5 points more, but they're quicker and have better shooting. They're not scoring, but however, they fit the theme of a Tau army better than some cannibal canines.

kuro_khan wrote:Well, it takes 3 MEQ hits to down an unarmored kroot and 4.5 to down a frisbee. Frisbees are 5 points more, but they're quicker and have better shooting. They're not scoring, but however, they fit the theme of a Tau army better than some cannibal canines.

Not to mention the ability to Deep Strike. (Granted, this may make Drone Squads a viable tactic against MEQ, but against GEQ, Kroot can also inflict a good amount of hurting.)

I'd be all for Tau having more troop options; personally I'd vote for both drones and stealth suits as troops, as that would allow for some fairly varied army's.

Jack

Since we are making suggestions that seem to be more about the future and rules changes and less about what you can do now (which isnt much)

right now - shasui with markerlight and drone controller, 2 marker drones in static pulse rifle squad. keep 2 squads near each other, enough to cover each other with fire and use each others markerlight hits.

future ideas:

1.) Cheaper

2.) Disruption grenades- a squad with disruption grenades may always choose to fail their leadership test during combat resolution, they automatically pass their initiative test to disengage.

3.) if your squad numbers 5 or less 1 model may be upgraded to fire support, if the squad numbers 10 or more 2 models may be upgraded for +5 points a model.

Fire support members assist the squad with target allocation, they replace their pulse rifle or pulse carbine with sophisticated targeting technology that can be broadcast to their squad members. For each fire support member in a squad you may reroll 1 failed to wound roll during your shooting phase from the unit.

The presence of a fire support member in a squad allows the squad to premeasure distances before picking which target to fire at.

each fire support member carries a special backpack that mounts a seeker missile which may be used/fired as per the normal rules for firing a seeker missile.

IMO those sounded fine until you mentioned a man portable seeker missile... I dont like that idea.

blaktoof wrote:
each fire support member carries a special backpack that mounts a seeker missile which may be used/fired as per the normal rules for firing a seeker missile.

A bunch of Boba Fett's running around the field...strange.

I only disagree with this one, the idea of strapping a vehicle-mounted missile to an individual soldier just doesn't make sense to me.

I'd be happier with all vehicles including 2 seeker missiles for free personally.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:I'd be happier with all vehicles including 2 seeker missiles for free personally.

Jack

QFT

I would like to see the Team Leader or Shas'Ui upgrade be able to take a handheld drone controller. Drone controllers are "Heavy" weapon types, that allow a user to controll up to four drones. during unit creation, the drone controller allows only 2 drones to be taken: Sheild (4++ inv, confers 5+ cover to unit), Medical (confers 1 floating FNP to unit), TLCarbine (with underslung grenade launcher), Flamer (as weapon). A controller can acquire drones from other units (Drone Squads [Fast Attack], Heavy Drones [Heavy Support]). Drones taken in Fire Warrior Units will embark into the drone transport spots on a Devilfish, and remain part of the unit (meaning they must embark/disembark with the unit). This is how Devilfish get drones, they lose the ability to buy them in the unit entry.
[Fast Attack Drones]
9 Drones, up to 3 units as a single FOC
May always Deepstrike, as they pop up like mines or fly down from carriers.
All must be the same. Twin-Linked Pulse Carbines with underslung grenade launcher OR Manhacks (+1 WS and A).
Pulse Carbines and grenades:
Photon - Causes Pinning
Tanglefoot - effected unit moves as if in Diff Terrain for their turn (Move, Fleet, Assault), doesn't force Dangerous Terrain tests (but doesn't negate them from other terrain features)
Ion Grenades - replaces EMP grenades. Attacks/Shots are S:5, Rending against Vehicles (so Death or Glory and CC are resolved as S:5 Rending too).

[Heavy Support Drones]
I'll fill this in later...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok Heavy Drones...
1 Tau Controller (Shas'Ui) and 3 Heavy Drones
Up to three units may be taken per FOC slot. They deploy and operate independently... etc.
The Tau Controller has a Heavy Drone Controller that can operate up to 6 Drones. The Heavy Drone Controller has a built-in Markerlight and Target Lock. As long as the Tau Controller is alive, Drones in the unit are not subject to Pre-programmed Behavior rules, in addition they also gain the ability of the Target Lock. Each Drone must take one option from the following list; each may be armed differently.
Seeker Missle Pod
Markelight
Cyclical Ion Blaster
Heavy Flamer
Fusion Blaster
Rail Rifle
Sheild Drone - no weapon but 4+ Inv save and confers 5+ Cover Save to the unit its in.
Burst Cannon

Drone Special Rules
Trap: Drones may voluntarily go to ground instead of moving; able to shoot but cannot assault, move etc... May only come out of this "Trap" state if there is a Drone Controller within 6" at beginning of their movement, at which point they may move, and assault, as normal.
Pre-Programmed Behavior: If a unit of Drones have no models within 6" of a Drone Controller the unit must obey these rules:
1) Being automata, Drones never make Leadership tests of any kind, and any rule or power that would cause them to make one is ignored. This only applies to the Drone models of a squad, and not to any Tau Controller attached to it.
2) The unit automatically goes to ground as described in Trap above.
3) If the unit takes 25% casualties from shooting, it will behave as though it were Fearless.
4) If the unit loses an assault, it will behave as though it were Fearless.
5) If the unit is tank shocked, one drone will automatically attempt Death or Glory.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what... I'm just gonna have to start a new thread for my Tau ideas.

I'm cool with more drones. More drones less kroot!

I would love to have a group of CIB Drones. That would be so much dakka!

Why do drones take leadership checks in the first place?? If it's in the programming, then it's dumb programming. Program them to be fearless.

I don't know about the "Trap" rule. I think drones should have some sort of automation. At least extend it more than 6". Maybe model it after synapse?