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I've had the opportunity to play as and play against the Space Wolf Codex. The overall consensus it is a mid range army at best.

The main problem I find is that while it has good choices they are ultimately overshadowed with the codex to have some form of cohesion and flexibility.


HQ-

Fantastic you can take 4 HQ choices in your army ; to bad that ultimately none of them have a real effect on the overall strategy of your army. The exception being Canis Wolfborn with allowing Wolfs to be taken as troops , Logan Grimnar with Wolfguard.

Actually the two selections that I consider the Best Wolf Priests and Rune Priests are excellent choices due to their special abilities.

Wolf Priests have a invulnerable save
Rune Priests as well.

The main selection does not so at minimum he is 25 additional points for a belt of Russ.

Overall what it does is give you a saturation of units that ultimately will not have a overall game winning effect or change in strategy


Elites

This is where is comes in tough and the army does suffer. The majority of the selections are fantastic in fact I would say there really is not a midling or poor selection this also comes with the problem of competition.


If you wish to have any wolfguard at minimum you have to purchase 3 ; the problem with this is 2 man units ultimately are not that great and youll probably be addining these to your greyhunters or other units in order to gain this ability.

This also really limits you in that you ultimately you need to find somewhere to put those other Wolfguard if you are not going to be forming a smaller unit of wolfguard in terminator armour or whatever to use.

What this does tho is really make your selections for you if you want tht 2nd heavy weapon for the longfangs whatever.


Now you have 2 selections of elites.


Troops
Greyhunters probably one of the best choices in the game for troops.

BloodClaws ; same cost less weapon skill and with out a special character cannot get at troop transports because they are unable to fire

Fast Attack

Lose Multimelta attack bikes , but gain thunderwolves.

bikers require a special character otherwise you cannot fire and assault

The other choices are good but ultimately compete for the same spots as thunderwolves and bikers.

H. Support

Longfangs : cheap bubut suffer a huge disadvantage in number of squad and not having ablative wounds



So what you have over all i a army that does some things well but nothing fantastic armies that use drop pods etc.. dont benefit from Locator Beacons at all.

All you have really as drop choices are going to be greyhunters ; long fangs , wolfguard.

If you take wolfguard you lose out on dreads etc..

I have yet to play with the new wolves codex, but I feel that you have to make a choice with these armies. Either you go competitive or you go for an army with character, personally I'd rather have a fun army than always have to win to have fun.

Also, SWs can take multimelta attack bikes.

Space Wolves do not play like a codex army. They play more like a chaos army, in that they must close with their opponent and have numerous close combat units, but lack long range fire.

You obviously can see the shortcomings of the wolf units, but you ignore the strengths of the new book. Thunderwolf units are powerful, especially with a wolf lord. GH units are better then tac squads when they can get close. Long Fangs are also very good.

i would definitely disagree with you after playing about 6 games with the new wolf codex. it's definitely a top tier book geared towards those who want short range firefights and close combat. the hq choices are quite powerful (especially rune priests with murderous hurricane and JOTWW) and have add a ton of variety both to playstyles and your army comp. want termie troops? take logan grimnar. want to buff units as your primary HQ ability? take wolf priest. elites are also competitive with FULLY customizable terminator slots and oh-so-distracting lone wolves that can tie up a non-CC unit for several turns. troops are AWESOME with greyhunters being the best troops choice i've seen in 40k for the points you spend. blood claws are good but compared to GH are subpar. now, that doesn't mean that they're bad but when you can take an incredible unit like GH, the BC don't seem all that great. FA is strengthened by the TWC as the new "it" unit in 40k. also, you mentioned you have to have a special character to shoot and assault bikes; can't add a wolf guard and gain the same benefit? they do suffer somewhat in regards to heavy weapons but frankly i dont feel the need for more. i've got two small long fang squads with two ablative wounds (a heavy bolter and a sergeant) and two real weapons. that costs me only 5pts more than two add-on marines in a vanilla dev squad.

It's effect versus reward.

Other than the troops selection all of the selections have a hard selection to make in each category.

The army also does not get attack bikes but gains thunderwolves.

So basically, you are whining because there are multiple good units in the Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support section?

Well...technically they don't get Attack Bike squadrons.
SW can still get attack bikes attached to the biker squads...

Defensively speaking the cost for a single HB attack bike is very nice.
Offensively is a different matter....
But damn, it's 15 points for T5 Power Armor that moves fast and shoots a hvy weapon...
But it's balanced as it can't be spammed and needs at least a wolfguard to allow them to shoot at closer stuff, though the are not great shots.

So the space wolf book has practically everything from the SM book (a top tier codex) minus cheap TH/SS terminators?

The SW book is far and away better than the SM book.
Couple of the main things

Cheaper troops as well as not having to mix heavy/special weapons.
Thunderwolf cavalry
Better HQ's

The space wolf codex suffers from the fact that units that are cohesive occupy the same slots.

As far as comparably to the space marine codex. Uh , no the space marine codex completely dominates the space wolf codex on army builds.


What are you going to build a calvary army that has Thunderwolves ( which I dont find that great or durable)

They're a great unit and harrassement unit but yes, they may destroy a unit in close combat , but they also suffer greatly from having a LD8 , expensive cost, low model count which they do. Toughness 5 is fantastic to bad they have 2 wounds and no real way to give them any other saving ability.


You can create unique great characters Whoooooo, please take 4 125 point characters in your army.

The Space Wolf Codex has a real problem with its Elite slots. You have only three slots with which to take many of the good units in the Codex-- Wolf Guard (quasi-mandatory for Grey Hunters IMO), Lone Wolves, Dreadnoughts, and so on. If you want Iron Priests or Wolf Scouts, the organization crunch gets even tougher.

Too many good choices are competiting for elite spots.

Apart from that, great book!

Its not a bad book its just your army selection and manipulation of force organization is limited to a degree.


Sure you can take Logan Grimnar or Canis wolfborn or both but you are investing a lot of points in order to take Wolfguard as troops and hounds as troops.


Also there is not a lot of options for quick multimelta period. You have Landspeeders and Dreads.

Longfangs I guess to a degree if you wanna drop a unit with in range.


I actually see wolves having a a semi decent problem with dealing with heavily mechanized forces period.


I guess go ahead and take that 6 man Lascannon Long fang or whatever else you want but Longfangs suffer from few model syndrome.

Long fangs cost LESS than Chaos Havocs and can split fire. Greayhunters cost LESS than CSM and get cheap/free meltas, and have bonus rules. I can build my standard CSM squad for 40 points cheaper in the wolf codex, and they have bonus crap. No complaints allowed.

Edit: You can't make things troops? Not enough multi-meltas? Are there any other books with this problem worse??

It's a good thing as the there are no troop choices other than greyhunters and wolfguard if you want to say that.

the fact is sure they're a great unit but one great unit doesnt make a codex great.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying the codex is fine and any complaints made about it in this thread are also valid for the Chaos codex seven hundred fold.

I can find most of my opponents and they will disagree with your problems with the codex. In fact most don't even want to play the wolves again. One chaos player was so frustrated with the sw he just walked away from the game. The SW are not weak they just have a lot of options to choose from. I don't see that as a weakness I see that as a reason to play them. Oh gee I have an army I can make a ton of good army list out of, oh shucks.

What exactly does the SM codex have that the SW codex doesn't? (besides TH/SS terminators)

That makes the SM codex top tier and the SW codex middle of the road?

SM has -

dreads as heavy
bikers as troops
affordable th/ss
arguably better psychic powers (i'll take null zone + avenger over any of your SW powers)

Horst wrote:SM has -

dreads as heavy
bikers as troops
affordable th/ss
arguably better psychic powers (i'll take null zone + avenger over any of your SW powers)

Do the first two really make SM a competitive army over the Puppiez? I will concede the TH/SS Termies option, but I think that Wolves have at least as good of Psychic powers (Living Lightning and CotS FTW) and better Psychic defense (much better if stacking Runic Weapons don't get FAQed).

Hollismason wrote:The space wolf codex suffers from the fact that units that are cohesive occupy the same slots.

As far as comparably to the space marine codex. Uh , no the space marine codex completely dominates the space wolf codex on army builds.


What are you going to build a calvary army that has Thunderwolves ( which I dont find that great or durable)

They're a great unit and harrassement unit but yes, they may destroy a unit in close combat , but they also suffer greatly from having a LD8 , expensive cost, low model count which they do. Toughness 5 is fantastic to bad they have 2 wounds and no real way to give them any other saving ability.


You can create unique great characters Whoooooo, please take 4 125 point characters in your army.

Well I did play a TW army this weekend in a local 2500 tournament. Played two games, one against a space wolf of pure wolf guard army and the other is fatecrusher demon army. I massacred both of them. If you equip the TW with thundershield and make all of them different, attached to a lord with 2 wolves, they can actually take a lot of punch.

My army consist of three unit of TW, each armed with 2 SS, 1 TH, 2 meltabombs and each with a lord, one is with canis and three unit of GH with drop pods. The opposite will need to dedicate a lot of fire to kill one unit, meanwhile you are assaulting with the other two unit, when they get to assault, they kill eveything in the assault.

So maybe you should test play some TW and you will see, they are amazing.

2500 is a pretty steep buy in at lower point costs the Thunderwolves become less viable.

Im not saying they are not a good squad bu they do have some severe disadvantages.

As for wound allocation yes you can manipulate thunderwolves to a degree.

Also , you cannot join a thunderwolf lord with wolves to a squad because he isnt a independent character anymore . So you cant really get ablative wounds that way.


t5 2 wounds and a 3+ save is great until you play someone with a medusa/ manticore/ dreadnought/ etc.


Thunderwolves are a great squad no doubt and a fantastic unit but they do have disadvantages.


SW
Fenrisian Wolves as trooops
Wolfguard as Troops
uhmmm....


Why I say space marines are more flexible and a better army over all is because of the ability to reorganize your army to suit your needs.

Want to play a Drop Poding Sternguard count as scoring bikes as scoring.

You can etc...

there are literally dozens of different combinations of ability within the space marine codex. Which is why I say that.

Hollismason wrote:It's a good thing as the there are no troop choices other than greyhunters and wolfguard if you want to say that.

the fact is sure they're a great unit but one great unit doesnt make a codex great.

6 points for an Ork boy makes a codex great.

I didn't know that TW lord with wolves (2 wolves bought as wargear) cannot join TW unit, are you sure about this? Because if that is true, then I should be disqualified in the local tournament.

I'm a little confused to the original post. It seems to me that because there is too much to choose from, and that you almost need to theme an army, it decreases the armies potential, am I right or have I misunderstood?

Firstly, why wouldn't you want to theme an army? Themed armies have backgrounds and character, giving your army life. In doing this doesn't have to decrease your armies potential.

The spaces wolves could possibly be the best codex out there. Yes there is a huge amount of variation, but picking the right options could create a destructive force indeed.

Ve themes my army around harald deathwolf, a more feral
Army. My troops are all fenrisian wolves, my marines come in the form of wolf guard and long fangs, with thunderwolves as fast attack.

Tactic wise, drop podding 2 packs of wg down, with one in
a lrc right into the enemy lines, while the rest of my army can cross the board on 1 turn can be devestating.

So in all I have to disagree with the original post, there isn't much wrong with the wolf codex, you just have to know how to use them.

I can believe this thread was ever started. The SW are monsters if used right. My last three games have been tabling by turn 3 affairs. I have smashed csm, sm, orks, etc. The SW and SM are 2 of the most powerful codexes if played right. As far as your option deal, I would hope the SM codex would have options, it is covering every SM chapter besides the SW, BA, BT, and DA. In this vid the guy asks GW about wg as troops in a logan list, and the guy at GW said in a Logan list you can buy WG in the troop slot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBAEP9-AKZM

WarmasterScott wrote:I can believe this thread was ever started. The SW are monsters if used right. My last three games have been tabling by turn 3 affairs. I have smashed csm, sm, orks, etc. The SW and SM are 2 of the most powerful codexes if played right. As far as your option deal, I would hope the SM codex would have options, it is covering every SM chapter besides the SW, BA, BT, and DA. In this vid the guy asks GW about wg as troops in a logan list, and the guy at GW said in a Logan list you can buy WG in the troop slot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBAEP9-AKZM

agreed. SW are a top tier book as long as you play the style the book was meant for: short range firefight followed by close combat. no other army out there can fire at full marine effect (str 4 weapons rapid firing at BS4 with 1-2 specials) on their turn and still have a 2/3 chance of "charging" on THE OPPONENT'S TURN (via countercharge). and their standard troops choice can do this for CHEAPER than tactical marines. if you're not winning more than 50% of the time with wolves, you're doing something wrong (like trying to win by shooting at 30" like tau) or have horrible luck (like i did in my first two games... stupid never rolling above a 3 on my mark of the wolfen # of attacks for 6 models in two games!!).

sw really aren't that great....

think about it... your only real troop option is a grey hunter squad. the bloodclaws suck.

in most instances, you want your grey hunters to take a wolfguard guy in there (to counteract LD8 and lack of CC punch)... so thats an elite slot taken up right there, leaving you with 2 slots to build your army around... not really enough. I know that my elite slots are frequently some of my first filled, and I always wish I had more.

also, your right, you have better marines for cheaper in the form of grey hunters. true, but your forgetting an important fact... they still are middle of the road for shooting and assaulting. they don't hit hard enough in CC to do much better than a normal tac squad against most opponents, and definitely don't shoot better. couple that with the fact that your going to need to waste some points buying a squad to hold your own home objectives (no long range shooty configuration for you), and they really aren't spectactular. they fill the same role as tac marines / csm, but not much better.

TWC is brutal, sure, but really, just use the same strategy to beat it as you would nob bikers.... most armies have ways to counter this fairly easily.

SM- vindicators + null zone
Chaos - lash + vindicator/oblit
IG- weaken resolve + artillery/snipers
Eldar- council w/ fortune
tau- railguns w/ marker lights
orks- nob bikers probably have the edge here
daemons- anything khorne
the list goes on... these aren't obscure units, they are common.

the only thing I truly see the SW have that are really unique and good are the longfangs... GW was slowed to make them so cheap. why they gave the best devastator style squad in the game to SW i'll never know.

Greyhunters are middling in close combat they are the equivalent of assault marines.

yea, and everyone knows how poorly assault marines do in combat.

Horst wrote:sw really aren't that great....

think about it... your only real troop option is a grey hunter squad. the bloodclaws suck.

in most instances, you want your grey hunters to take a wolfguard guy in there (to counteract LD8 and lack of CC punch)... so thats an elite slot taken up right there, leaving you with 2 slots to build your army around... not really enough. I know that my elite slots are frequently some of my first filled, and I always wish I had more.

also, your right, you have better marines for cheaper in the form of grey hunters. true, but your forgetting an important fact... they still are middle of the road for shooting and assaulting. they don't hit hard enough in CC to do much better than a normal tac squad against most opponents, and definitely don't shoot better. couple that with the fact that your going to need to waste some points buying a squad to hold your own home objectives (no long range shooty configuration for you), and they really aren't spectactular. they fill the same role as tac marines / csm, but not much better.

TWC is brutal, sure, but really, just use the same strategy to beat it as you would nob bikers.... most armies have ways to counter this fairly easily.

SM- vindicators + null zone
Chaos - lash + vindicator/oblit
IG- weaken resolve + artillery/snipers
Eldar- council w/ fortune
tau- railguns w/ marker lights
orks- nob bikers probably have the edge here
daemons- anything khorne
the list goes on... these aren't obscure units, they are common.

the only thing I truly see the SW have that are really unique and good are the longfangs... GW was slowed to make them so cheap. why they gave the best devastator style squad in the game to SW i'll never know.

Guess my exps so far have jaded my view of them not being nifty. My grey hunters have killed many troop units in cc aside from plague marines which I used some wg with wolf claws and logan. I have things in a list to complements each other and to cover short comings. Check out the youtube video I posted about 2 up and you will see along with gh and blood claws we have wg! As far as your counters to twc, I have to ask if that is all you have to pressure the opponent then wouldn't that make it a weak list anyway? Also some of those are very specific to have and I don't know if those counters are in everyones army lists and I doubt people ,ake a list going "omg I need these to counter twc." I really don't have all the answers either to your questions because I haven't played every army just several of the top tier(eldar, sm, ork, csm, etc) and have yet to be disappointed. My only loss so far was to a sm/gk list.