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It's simply because people are not accustomed to playing them just treat them like nob bikers without uite as much survivability.


People keep saying SUPER CLOSE COMBAT


Yeah, that doesnt work at all the book has 2 heavy hitting units. Terminators and Thunderwolves .

I guess you could count HQs as well.

Ultimately Greyhunters etc.. are no better than Marines as an assault.

Also, they still have to pass that leadership test.
Here is a list of the "special " units in the Wolf Codex vs. Space Marine

HQ
rune priest = psyker
The other entries are just SM entries that give you no additional benefit other than the two special characters that alter your army.

Space Marine
Pedro - scoring sternguard
Shrike - Fleet
Vulcan - twinlink
Khan - outflank and bike troops
SPace Marine Captain on bike = bikes as troops
Techmarine = Ability to take 6 dreadnoughts
Honour Guard
Space Marine Command Squad

Stuff SW DO NOT GET

Sternguard
Thunderfire
Ironclad
Landspeeder Storm
SPace Marine Scout bikes
Vanguard
legion of the damned
Attack bike squadron

They get
Wolfguard
non scoring Wolf Scouts
Thunderwolves
Fenrisian Wolves
Lone Wolf
Long Fangs





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are their scoring troop possibilities

Greyhunters
Bloodclaws
Terminators ( w/ logan)

Space Marines
Space Marine Bikes
Space Marine Tactical Squads
Sternguard w/ Pedro
Space Marine Scouts

Well of course they have more options they are covering a lot of chapters instead of one, but that doesn't make the SW any less effective. The SW have options too but they are more focused on a particular play style, they're not the generalists that the SM codex presents. I feel confident in making the claim that even for how ever long I will still be winning whether or not people have "seen" them or not.

Horst wrote:the only thing I truly see the SW have that are really unique and good are the longfangs... GW was slowed to make them so cheap. why they gave the best devastator style squad in the game to SW i'll never know.

This is my biggest gripe with the SW codex. Grey Hunters and all that wouldn't bother me at all if I didn't feel that Longfangs give SW better long-range firepower than the supposedly more shooty vanilla Marines.

Umm...

SW are only 'mediocre' if you play them as a 'balanced' army.

Most of our space wolf army builds at my local store go extreme shooty (yes shooty) with some having a splash of counter assault.

I have several lists, but I am leaning towards:

Logan
Rune Priest
3 x 10 man GH squads in Rhinos with either 2xmelta or 2xflamer. One GH gets MoW in each squad. It's an amazing CC ability for 15pts.
1 5 man IST squad w/2xmelta
1 6 man LF squad w/5lc and a razorback for the IST squad
2 x 6 man LF squad w/5ml
3 Rifleman Dreads

Grey Hunters are amazing. Outside of rhino bunkers, they are superior to vanilla tac squads. You can actually fight with them. I used to run one less Rifleman, dropped the lc's in the LF squad for ml's and added 3 x 1 Land Speeders w/mm/hf, but opted for this instead.

The other list in our store is running a razorback spam list with 15 ml LF squads and tcav.

If you want to play space marines without assault terms, space wolves is where it's at.

The nice thing is all I had to do was buy a few more models and a sw codex and I can play either vanilla marines (vulkan) or my shooty space wolves.

The only real vulnerability to the list is the LF squads (that Logan is not attached to) and IG PSB's. It's a pain. Might have to get a Cannoness with a book of St Lucius in there.

I am also looking at a Bjorn list as the alpha strike capability of a shooty SW list is...extreme, so going first is a high priority.

Also there is not a lot of options for quick multimelta period. You have Landspeeders and Dreads.

Multimelta on an attack bike?

I actually see wolves having a a semi decent problem with dealing with heavily mechanized forces period.

Remember, SWs can still take Predators and Razorbacks. Oh, and I almost forgot my Land Raider.

Also , you cannot join a thunderwolf lord with wolves to a squad because he isnt a independent character anymore . So you cant really get ablative wounds that way.

Not true, a Wolf Lord with Fenrisian Wolves can join any unit he wants to, just as easily as a SM Captain with a Combi-melta. Wolves are wargear.

My troops are all fenrisian wolves, my marines come in the form of wolf guard and long fangs, with thunderwolves as fast attack.

Good luck winning any game with objectives, since Fenrisian Wolves cannot hold objectives the best you could get is a draw.

think about it... your only real troop option is a grey hunter squad. the bloodclaws suck.

Blood Claws don't actually suck, they just don't compare to Grey Hunters. Comparing them to the troop choices of other armies (point of this thread) they're not too shabby. I'd trade Blood Claws for Guardians any day.

Greyhunters are middling in close combat they are the equivalent of assault marines.

You guys should try using MotW.

Compared to other codices, the SWs only have one unit that nobody wants to take (Blood Claws), that's pretty good. And the SWs have plenty of options and possible army builds: an elite force with Logan and WG (they don't have to be terminators), drop pod force with Wolf Scouts and Land Speeders thrown in that all appears in the enemy deployment, moving cover saves (i.e. Fenrisian Wolves), psykers that put my Eldar psykers (supposedly the best in the universe) to shame, the possibilities are pretty endless. As people play with the codex more, new tactics will develop and when you play against a SW army you're never gonna know precisely what to expect.

Compared to other codices, the SWs only have one unit that nobody wants to take (Blood Claws), that's pretty good.

That is an understatement.
+2730912735 Awesome Points to DruidODurham.
I am impressed with the amount of 'balanced' awesome that is in codex SW... it's IMO scary.

Sorry been keeping out of this thread since i thought it would be locked by now ... But what are these terminator units i keep hearing about?

Wolfguard have the option of taking terminator armour but if you treat them like SM terminators your doing them a disservice.

WolfGuard are probably the most flexible unit in 40k they do power armour, terminator armour, bikes and jump packs or any combination of the above. One (two if you take ten) can take a Terminator Heavy weapon (with armour of course) Then you can split them off to where they're needed ...

I don't think you can find a more flexible unit in 40K (Nobs do come close)

Exactly imweasel. I have been playing may 1500 SW as very shooty and they are very nasty. GHs with MOW, a squad fist/Pweapon and a Fist WG will tear through things (1d6+2 rending and 5 Pfist attacks on the charge and reroll 1s w/banner is LOLgood) and are a step above medium CC (though not as good as top tier CC). Arming the squad with a melta and the WG w/a combimelta also gives them decent AT power.

Not to mention that 5 ML longfangs ruin mech's day. (As for ablative wounds 1) attach a naked WG and pull him and the sarge first and 2) they are cheap enough that this isn't a huge issue).

I also like putting 2-3 razorbacks out there for more mobile fire support that can play keep away from meltas while still threatening oblits, vehicles, etc.

The rune pries is hugely valuable defensively (50% ignore lash and I also slap a talisman on him) and Living lightning is awesome, as is Jaws and Hurricane against certain enemies.

As to crowded elite, so what? There are great choices in every slot. So you can only take two other elites? Do you really miss 3 dreads or lone wolves? I can't really see why you'd grab an iron priest unless you were sticking two on TWolves and putting them in fenris wolves.... but you can still do that! It's my heavy I wish I had more of (just like most armies) so I can take more LFs!

Really, if you can't see why Space Wolves are very good, your doing it wrong.

@jmurph:
Just a minor note:

I can't really see why you'd grab an iron priest unless you were sticking two on TWolves and putting them in fenris wolves.

It's sort of vague, but Iron Priests purchase their own cyber wolves...funny/sadly enough they are not IC's, so can't join normal Fenris wolf squads.

If they could...oh the lolcakes.

Sanctjud wrote:@jmurph:
Just a minor note:

I can't really see why you'd grab an iron priest unless you were sticking two on TWolves and putting them in fenris wolves.

It's sort of vague, but Iron Priests purchase their own cyber wolves...funny/sadly enough they are not IC's, so can't join normal Fenris wolf squads.

If they could...oh the lolcakes.

Uh nope, wolves count as part of the wargear not as a retinue.

That's not true by the way Iron Priests cannot join other units as they do not have the independent character rule.

As for Wolf Lords w/ 2 wolves joining I say no , but lets leave that for YMDC.


Now for the choices

Greyhunters = yes, their a great unit they suffer in the fact they cannot take a heavy weapon , have LD 8 , no way to reroll.

People compare them to CSM squads and its similar but not the same CSM have a lot more variation than the Greyhunters the only thing similar is the attack amount which the Greyhunters can surpass IF they pass a Counterattack.

Sorry thats still a test you have to make.


Wolfguard = Great unit but if you want a heavy hitting unit / unit that does more and varies your going to have to split off models reducing the number.

Its math

10 Models you want 2 Cyclones w/ your Long Fangs now your down to 8 , you want 2 for your Greyhunters , 6 etc...

Having the Wolfguard be a elite unit limits the armies ability to use the other slots of the elites.


Bloodclaw bikers get a multimelta ; great thats 1 multimelta that is BS of 3 btw. Also you cannot shoot it if with in 6 unless you have a independent character


You also need to realize that the bloodclaws cost 25 points which is good for a unit that has 4 attacks on the charge but requires a Special character and the minimum cost is a wolfguard on a bike at 53 points.


Sure you can spam 3 squads of Long fangs now you have no heavy support and add 3 wolf guard from a squad to them. Now what happens if you do not get the first turn?

The opponents going to look across the field and go 18 missile launchers or 20 with Cyclones and lay into it.

Their still only marines with a 3+ save maybe able to get a cover save.


Thunderwolves are fantastic unit suffer from the same problem one nullzone to get rid of whatever invulnerables and hitting them with hellfire etc.. is going to whiddle them down pretty severely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also yes, they can have thunderhammers. They still only have Rending STR5 an 5 attacks which really isnt that great against a anvil unit.

They're great at destroying middle of the road units but when going up against heavier armed targets they suffer.

The maximum number of attacks you can get is 25 in that squad on the charge.

There is no question its not a fantastic disruption unit but it is not a hammer unit.

So lets deck them all out;
5 w/ powerfist , 3 stormshields is a whopping 300 + for that unit.

Yeah uh that will get beat down by a equal pointed dedicated Assault Term Squad/ etc..

You really like to beat a dead horse.

Its not beating a dead horse people just seem to ignore these glaringly obvious disadvantages; everything has these disadvantages each unit in the game.


I think the longer people play space wolves more and more people will see them a les and less competitive.

Hollismason wrote:Its not beating a dead horse people just seem to ignore these glaringly obvious disadvantages; everything has these disadvantages each unit in the game.


I think the longer people play space wolves more and more people will see them a les and less competitive.

Whether thats true or not is to be seen but till then it just seems you one man alone(figuratively speaking).

Wait, so it's being complained that a Space Marines SUB Chapter lacks the options of the main space marines book?

Not completely, but that is part of the "I think the SM are better camp" is using as part of their points. He saying because the armies are different so SW aren't good.

This thread is slowed. What ive gotten from it is this, space wolves suck because they dont have the shooty ability of regular marines.

Oh really, viking space marines cant shoot quite as well as regular space marines. Id forgotten about the fearsome viking ranged combat. Grey hunters are the best troops choice in the game right now. Even if they DONT pass that leadership test, which they are likely to do, you are still doing as much damage as a regular tac marine squad on the charge. So your basic troops, your regular old infantry, can put a serious hurting on most units in the game in hand to hand. Lets see what other armies can do this. Chaos, orks. And grey hunters are superior to regular chaos marines. Orks cannot hurt vehicles either. Put two melta guns in the squad and drop tanks, charge guys inside.

Basically what im seeing other then that is the fact that space wolves have different options, and a lot of their good hand to hand ones are in the elites section. OH noes, I have to decide between a bunch of really good units. Hey, I play eldar, Im in the same boat with my heavy support, only you dont have an outdated codex.

@WarmasterScott:
So just ignore the point that you were incorrect about the Iron Priests.

I dont think HollisJollysWBMason is beating a dead horse...the Codex is still pretty fresh.. so giving a level-headed view of the SW codex is the first step to having them level off the 'new codex high'.

@Hollismason:

GH’s are a decent unit…but there a lot of indirect balances worked into the, much like CSM. And you pointed out several which is good.

Wolfguard: well…do you really need more than 6 for a generalist unit? It’s most likely a scalpel sort of unit and won’t need the bodies. Anvil they are not.

Wolfguard = Great unit but if you want a heavy hitting unit / unit that does more and varies your going to have to split off models reducing the number.

Bloodclaws or anything similar: not just an IC but a WG as well, so it’s not as bad, but it’s a balancing issue.

The wolfguards I use are 43…Fist, and combi-melta usually.
And that’s generally the cost of a vet/champ with a fist…

Long Fangs: if you don’t get first turn you’ll have cover saves and pray for hot rolls…this is no different to other static elements.

Thunderwolves: that’s why you don’t rely on them. But, I think the last line about beating down Ass termies correct, but making an unfair comparison.
They are not supposed to be beating on Assault termies, what they are supposed to do is lock down those middle of the road units…which there are a lot of.

I don't think I'll ever really feel bad for SWs. They get many of the good units from SM, only missing out on a few actual competitive choices (TH/SS Termies, Ironclads, Sternguard, MM ABs, bikes as Troops, and some of the characters). They have a lot of the good units (Dreads, Dakka Preds, LRC/LRR, Landspeeders, etc) and some other really solid units that are unique to them. They also get some very similar units to SM that are either more effective (Runepriests), cheaper (Grey Hunters), or both (Long Fangs). Yeah... you can argue that those units have their weaknesses, (specifically the Long Fangs example of not getting first turn or GHs not being able to melee "well"), but SM units will have the same weaknesses at a higher point cost.

I think SWs have a lot of tools at their disposal that should keep them competitive. Yeah, they might lack some of the overall builds of the SM codex (Bikers, Dread Spam, etc), but I think that the builds they do have will be very, very solid.

People already make the comparison to Space Marines but hte comparison to Chaos SPace Marine.


My point is that really they are neither ; best to just say this.


The Space Wolf army incorporates some playstyle and tactical flexibility of the Space Marine but also the Chaos Space Marines so that it its in the middle of the road between the other two books not being able to accomplish either as well with tactical flexibility.


If you'll notice most comptetive Space Wolf armies incorporate very specific units most notably the incredibly under priced greyhunters.


The point is that it sits in the middle of the road when compared to either Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and this in my view.


Ultimately 1 to 2 seriously competitive lists mostly revolving around mechanized will arise out of the Space Wolf codex similar to what happened with Chaos Space Marines versus the myriad of comptetive lists available to the SM.

Its a good book but it almost suffers from being to well written to the point of being extremely balanced.

Hollismason wrote:

If you'll notice most comptetive Space Wolf armies incorporate very specific units most notably the incredibly costed greyhunters.

This did it for me, this statement right here. Grey hunters are undercosted.

I didn't say they weren't I said they were incredibly costed and make up most competitive builds. Maybe you misinterpreted what I said.

Thats a likely fact, language is getting more and more abstract and difficult for me to understand. Saying grey hunters are incredibly costed, I read as saying they need to be dropped in points.

Its a local colloquialism

Sanctjud wrote:@WarmasterScott:
So just ignore the point that you were incorrect about the Iron Priests.

I dont think HollisJollysWBMason is beating a dead horse...the Codex is still pretty fresh.. so giving a level-headed view of the SW codex is the first step to having them level off the 'new codex high'.

Well since I don't have the book with me I can't comment so wait for the apology or whatever ass kiss you wish me to give. He is beating a dead horse because it's the same point for him over and over. "they don't get everything the sm do, so they suck" Gee they're two different armies, who knew?

Are you actually reading the thread?

Yes and you say the sw are sub par because they lack the options of the sm.

hummm...

somehow this has gotten me woundering.

how well would 4 x 15 man BC squads, joined by a Wolf Priest, and a Wolfguard, and 2 units joined by inro priests do???


BC + WG get fists, then there is the thunderhammer from the iron priest... im thinkin a frost axe on the wolf priest.
2x melta guns in BC, combie melta on WG, not sure if the iron and wolf priests can get upgraded guns.

then if anything is left over (somehow i doubt it), long fangs


thats a heck of a lot of crap running at you, most with the ability to reroll in CC.... i want to see this played out VS a ORK or BT horde CC army. do it, DO IT NAO

Envy89 wrote:hummm...

somehow this has gotten me woundering.

how well would 4 x 15 man BC squads, joined by a Wolf Priest, and a Wolfguard, and 2 units joined by inro priests do???


BC + WG get fists, then there is the thunderhammer from the iron priest... im thinkin a frost axe on the wolf priest.
2x melta guns in BC, combie melta on WG, not sure if the iron and wolf priests can get upgraded guns.

then if anything is left over (somehow i doubt it), long fangs


thats a heck of a lot of crap running at you, most with the ability to reroll in CC.... i want to see this played out VS a ORK or BT horde CC army. do it, DO IT NAO

inro priests

are not IC

Ive been utterly demolishing people with shooty space wolves.. I dont know where this talk of them not being great comes from.. They are better than marines in every possible way

Crushed 2 mech guard and sister melta/HF spam with long fangs, rune priests, a unit of Thunderwolves and grey hunters