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Giving units options and including them in the box is exactly what they have done.

I have no problem with the Codex having 0 options for things that they don't sell now. My problem is with them erasing options that actually exist now, even if its from other kits.

At the same time, I can see the appeal of having tactical squads only having ML. That will give Devastators squads more appeal. Much more now that ML are actually... nice.

As GW said, the Index was a compendium of basically everything you can have, to play with it. The codex are gonna erase things that aren't being sold by GW right now.
I agree that customization should be specially important in special characters and sargeants. I can understand having all my troop squads with the same weapon. But I wan't to customize the load-out of my "heores".

Tactical Squads get full access to the heavy weapons list. You can see it in that YouTube review. Everyone needs to chill. The only blip at the moment is sergeants not having access to combi-gravs, and that's probably an oversight (the classic trifecta of combi-flamer, -melta and -plasma being pretty ingrained I guess).

Dudeface wrote:
There is logic that for a new player they will likely not miss what they never had, but some units do have more options that realistically needed. Does a tactical squad need that many heavy weapon options? I get that it's nice to have them but I'm talking about a need.

By contrast sergeants and characters etc. In my eyes should always have the options even if the kit doesn't. That model is meant to be the player narritavely, they're the units that give the army it's flavour.

Mlaw you have a very forward thinking practical perspective, I agree it's not feasible for them to support none produced options forever, but in that case the indexes should simply never go away either. Maybe once the codex are out, strip it to none codex entries/options and call it an archive index or something, existing purely for those relevant but not mandatory to use the army.

I firmly believe independent datasheets are the answer. Until the core rules no longer support the statline format (ie if they change vehicles back or something) then having the datasheets available when you buy the box and also maybe as a collected datasheet set. To me this isn't really very different from how Warmachine cards used to be handled. You could either get the card with the unit or just buy the whole deck as a standalone product. Personally, I suspect this is where they're headed... but who knows.

What I do know is, people said "plastic Stormtroopers.. pssh.. no way" "plastic Baneblades.. nah" "plastic Titans? ha!" and so on. GW is not exactly predictable in all areas as people would have us believe.. and what they have in store is not known at this time.

What we DO know.. they have already talked about Datasheets as independent things. The new to 40k starter goes very far out of it's way to introduce the concept. The posts on the community site, their facebook page, etc. repeatedly mention not only the datasheets adding more to the game down the road but also that there will be similarities in updates to the rules to AOS.. and that the rules are to be seen as a living ruleset. I appreciate that many people may not fully grasp what that entails but I have been in quite a few groups using living rules and all of this "static thinking" people are demonstrating about "oh.. right now this rule=X so in 2 years it means Y!!!" type of stuff.. it just doesn't apply.

Thommy H wrote:
Tactical Squads get full access to the heavy weapons list. You can see it in that YouTube review. Everyone needs to chill. The only blip at the moment is sergeants not having access to combi-gravs, and that's probably an oversight (the classic trifecta of combi-flamer, -melta and -plasma being pretty ingrained I guess).

yeah I suspect the combi-grav issue is just an issue for errata.

 Kirasu wrote:

GAdvance wrote:


Fairly sure that's been done so as to make the primaris something other than just 'big marines', they have mono unit options to harken back to guillimans days of the great crusade and the heresy

What are you talking about? Mono unit options were only a thing for a few of the units and certainly did not apply to the captain character units. There is no reason to try to come up with so many excuses for gws behavior.

It's a bad decision and doing so only hurts players.

He is talking about 30k core units were mono weapons that said I love converting and hate this change

Oldmike wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

GAdvance wrote:


Fairly sure that's been done so as to make the primaris something other than just 'big marines', they have mono unit options to harken back to guillimans days of the great crusade and the heresy

What are you talking about? Mono unit options were only a thing for a few of the units and certainly did not apply to the captain character units. There is no reason to try to come up with so many excuses for gws behavior.

It's a bad decision and doing so only hurts players.

He is talking about 30k core units were mono weapons that said I love converting and hate this change

I get that, but the topic was sergeants and characters.

Oldmike wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

GAdvance wrote:


Fairly sure that's been done so as to make the primaris something other than just 'big marines', they have mono unit options to harken back to guillimans days of the great crusade and the heresy

What are you talking about? Mono unit options were only a thing for a few of the units and certainly did not apply to the captain character units. There is no reason to try to come up with so many excuses for gws behavior.

It's a bad decision and doing so only hurts players.

He is talking about 30k core units were mono weapons that said I love converting and hate this change

Except even that is a half truth. Legion tactical and tactical support squads are the only mono weapon squads of the core units. Legion breachers, Recon and Assault squads have squad options. Outside of core, legion heavy support squads had mono weapons. Amongst the mono weapon squads, Sgt load outs are still custom.

 Kirasu wrote:


I get that, but the topic was sergeants and characters.

The topic is news and rumors btw.

 Desubot wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


I get that, but the topic was sergeants and characters.

The topic is news and rumors btw.

Indeed.

So what are we looking at in the coming weeks? Next week is Repulsor and characters, after that it will most likely be the Intercessors and Hellblasters. I wonder if there will be any else that weekend. In a few weeks we get the Grey Knight codex as well.

Probably the remaining squads from DI(Interceptors, Helblasters and Interccesors) to finish off, with the remaining characters staying exclusive to the box for a while yet. Then no more Primaris until the variant chapter codex books arrive.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Probably the remaining squads from DI(Interceptors, Helblasters and Interccesors) to finish off, with the remaining characters staying exclusive to the box for a while yet. Then no more Primaris until the variant chapter codex books arrive.

I forgot about the Inceptors. That would be typical for this release, three kits.

I am hoping for a solid month of Chaos.

It may have been leaked but will Intercessors be able to get weapons like flamers and missile launchers, plasma and so forth ala tactical squads?

 privateer4hire wrote:
It may have been leaked but will Intercessors be able to get weapons like flamers and missile launchers, plasma and so forth ala tactical squads?

No, because then they'd be making the tactical marines obsolete, in fluff if not in point efficiency.

 privateer4hire wrote:
It may have been leaked but will Intercessors be able to get weapons like flamers and missile launchers, plasma and so forth ala tactical squads?

No. They get three different types of bolt rifles, two of which might be worth using. And they get an auxilary grenade launcher that lets them lob a grenade further than normally. Also, the sergeant can take a power sword.

 MLaw wrote:
This thread has shown me that it doesn't matter which way they go.. SOMEONE will find something wrong with it. I don't agree with blindly supporting things but come on.. that doesn't mean you have to go exactly polar opposite and be cynical about everything does it (not you specifically.. ).

There's a big divide between someone having an issue with one thing, and someone having an issue with everything.

Different people have different opinions. That doesn't mean that someone with a negative opinion of something is cynical about everything.

Are the just supposed to keep making EVERYTHING forever and always?

Keep making everything? No.

But making sure that legacy options will always be usable in some manner would certainly be pretty awesome customer service.

 insaniak wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
This thread has shown me that it doesn't matter which way they go.. SOMEONE will find something wrong with it. I don't agree with blindly supporting things but come on.. that doesn't mean you have to go exactly polar opposite and be cynical about everything does it (not you specifically.. ).

There's a big divide between someone having an issue with one thing, and someone having an issue with everything.

Different people have different opinions. That doesn't mean that someone with a negative opinion of something is cynical about everything.

Are the just supposed to keep making EVERYTHING forever and always?

Keep making everything? No.

But making sure that legacy options will always be usable in some manner would certainly be pretty awesome customer service.

How far should this go? Should they have continued to put out rules over the last 6 or 7 editions for Squats, SM jet bikes, etc?

Cardboard Ork dreads should always be an option!

The other thing is.. if you think about a tactical squad. I have bought many of these.. I have SOOOOO many bits left over that are like "ugh, I'm paying for these unused bits too!". So if they add in all the options to a kit, the size of the box will grow, the unused pile will grow, the price will grow.. all in the name of convenience. I have to remember, a lot of people posting probably didn't collect these miniatures back when characters were pewter blisters. Back when if you wanted to customize something, it was a legitimate scavenger hunt. The current mentality about "gimme gimme gimme" on these bits is a bit of entitlement if we're being honest about it. I don't get angry with Tamiya when the Humvee kit I've just bought doesn't include a CROWS MK19 or an up-armor kit.

This is a hobby. If you just want plug and play gaming, why in the hell would you jump into a miniature wargame that is very well known for conversions instead of just playing video games like a normal person???

Again.. if they put every option into a box, it would add even more to the already expensive kits.

Also, the one answer to this problem was bits-ordering. It was the perfect solution. Either way.. I'll avoid this topic here on out as it is not news or rumors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Cardboard Ork dreads should always be an option!

That reminds me.. I'm very upset that they no longer offer replacement bases for these as I lost mine a while back.. it should be available!!!!

*

I'm wondering if this might be influencing the Dreadnought decisions:

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/new/warpath/product/doomstorm-pattern-iron-ancestor.html

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 privateer4hire wrote:
It may have been leaked but will Intercessors be able to get weapons like flamers and missile launchers, plasma and so forth ala tactical squads?

I wish it was like that but no. Basically if you want to do that with intercessors you are 100% in the realm of fan content. That said, since all the points costs and stats for all the weapons are right there in the back of the book, it would be some of the easiest fan content to make ever.

I'm sort of talking myself into doing it. Making a codex compliant chapter that uses primaris marines for traditional tactical, assault and devastator squads. No grav weapons. Just make some space marines like they always should have been with two wounds and larger models. Since I'm in fan content mode anyway, i'll also probably need to do that rhino conversion where it gets extended/distored with plasticard. Or possibly find a suitably sized M113 kit and 40k it up.

does anyone know how much scout bikes are now?
or how much non-primaries lieutenants will be?

beniac, someone said 10 points less than primaris lieutenants.

MattW wrote:

How far should this go? Should they have continued to put out rules over the last 6 or 7 editions for Squats, SM jet bikes, etc?

Note that I specifically said 'usable in some manner'... There's no particular reason for Space Marine Jetbikes to have their own rules when they can simply be run as normal bikers.

Squats are a thornier issue... but obviously the ideal would have been for them to have not been dropped in the first place.


I did also say that it would be good customer service, not that it's realistic to actually expect it.

 benlac wrote:
does anyone know how much scout bikes are now?
or how much non-primaries lieutenants will be?

Regular Space Marine Lieutenants are 60 pts base. They come equipped with a Chainsword, Master-crafted Boltgun, and a Bolt Pistol.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 benlac wrote:
does anyone know how much scout bikes are now?
or how much non-primaries lieutenants will be?

Regular Space Marine Lieutenants are 60 pts base. They come equipped with a Chainsword, Master-crafted Boltgun, and a Bolt Pistol.

pretty solid set up, in a small game take a Lt as your HQ and give him the teeth of terra and you have a pretty solid char

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 benlac wrote:
does anyone know how much scout bikes are now?
or how much non-primaries lieutenants will be?

Regular Space Marine Lieutenants are 60 pts base. They come equipped with a Chainsword, Master-crafted Boltgun, and a Bolt Pistol.

pretty solid set up, in a small game take a Lt as your HQ and give him the teeth of terra and you have a pretty solid char

That could be fun. You could also do Primarch's Wrath. I am using one so I can give him a Power Fist since Pedro Kantor is too cool for another relic.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Malifice wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't need the extra strength when I have two guys with 5 attacks swinging Power Fists.

And one of those fists should be doing 3 damage per swing, with no penalty to hit (at S8, 2+ to hit... with rerolls to hit and wound).

If you aren't punching out 10 - 15 wounds per phase with that character, youre probably not doing it right.

That was exactly my thought. Between Pedro, the HG, the LT, Champ, and Apothecary, it will be 10 Str 8 AP-3 attacks (5 with 3+, 5 with 2+), 6 Str 5 AP-2, 5 Str 4 AP-3, and 5 Str 4 AP-0 attacks, rerolling all misses and wound rolls of 1. My friend called this the Good Squad even before the LT became a possibility (I ran it with another set of HG instead of the LT and Champ). They will wreck just about anything on the charge. Even better if 10 enemy models are nearby. Too bad they can't combine into one unit, I would fire up the 3CP Strategem that lets them fight again in the fight phase.

I wish the LT could get a Storm Shield though. Would make him more survivable.

Plonk a few of those Honor Guard next to the Lt as 2+ ablative wounds. If they go down, they get a free swing with their power axes (Ancient), and then get to be brought back to life (Apothecary).

They can also sacrifice themselves for the Ancient and Apothecary (who can then ressurect them).

Its worth spending extra for the bonus relics. Plonk the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant on the Ancient, as well as the Fist of Vengance on a Lt.

Your Honor guard can throw themselves around saving not just Kantor, but also the Apothecary, the Lt with the Fist and the Ancient as well.

Imagine your opponent when he deals a wound on a character, only for an honor guard to soak the wound instead (on a 2+), maybe die and instantly smash him with his axe (3+)... and then be brought back to life on a 4+.

Also; Apothecaries are dirt cheap (and have 4 wounds each). Its probably worth taking 2.

I will be when I field a 6 man Dev Cent (Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters) squad. The Cents cost 65 points a pop, each HB costs 10 each, and the Hurricane Bolters another 4 points. At 89 points each, potentially bringing 2 of those guys back to life each turn will be priceless.

You make nearly double your points back on the Apothecary just ressurecting one of them.

Bolter drill + Pedro + Lt + 36 HB and 36-72 Bolter shots should be rather hillarious. I may arm one or two with a Grav cannon + Amp (and have them die first, squeezing off 4 shots with the Grav cannon as they die on a 3+, before being ressurected on a 4+).

Also; for a cheap HQ Tax slot, Apothecaries are golden.