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Ive heard alot of talk about what needs to change with chaos troop choices and things that space marines have that chaos marines dont have, what is at least one thing that a player would change about chaos?

Don't have a problem with the current choices though many people do.

Only thing I would change is the Dreadnoughts, the aren't that good. I don't mind the Crazed rule, but it could be changed.

Actually CC dreads are one of my favorites keep it close to another dread or defiler and it cant be hurt. My issues lie in the non fluffiness of the codex hence the lash/plague/olbits lists. Yes they are competitive and work extremely well i just like my armies to make sense fluffwise.

I wish there were more understanding of a oblirator and not just two paragraphs.

Really the only two things out of the entire codex that I dislike very much which is useless are Possessed marines and Fabius bile, too useless choices IMO. And on that dreadnaught, I love that thing, its cheap and effective.

@TheTrueProtoman:

So you have no issues with the Spawns and the blandness of the Icon System and greater daemons



As for Possessed: I find them far from useless. They are much more functional than spawn and offer more to the army in terms of offensive power than lesser daemons.

I do agree with you Fabius.

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As for the Dread, the crazed rules are meh.
See, from 3.5 ed to this recent edition, I didn’t think they needed to even touch the crazed table.
But oh well, once they touch it they make it like 200% worse.

It was fine before, I have no idea why they changed it to what it is today.
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@Beastajg:

I don’t get what needs to change with troops.
Nothing with the troops needs to change, rather, the icon system is what pisses most people off.

Other than that, more options, but the Troop choices are crazy strong for Chaos. I think it’s unthinkable and quite funny for anyone to complain about the troop choices.

I don’t understand why the loyalist SM are involved in this.

People: CSM and SM though similar are TWO SEPRATE ARMIES. In addition the SM have 2.5 troop choices while Chaos has 5.6 troop choices.

@Sanctjud

Well I don't think the Spawns are that bad, but I will agree with you that the Icon system and Greater Daemons do need a thorough work up, that I cannot deny.

But I mean if you like possessed maybe I should put mine together and try them out have any tips to throw out on them, they cost 26 points a piece and that's why I have shunned away from them.

Along with the Dread I'm not familiar with the old rules, better or worse I do wish it had a better Chaos vibe, but as an elite its not bad for the price.

But yeah you caught me on the Icons forgot about how they are bland.

Really? You don't think Spawn are bad?

They have no armour save. They move randomly. They're expensive.

They're awful.

I just use them against people who never experienced them before, never for anything super serious, you see a model such as that and the only thing you can think of first of is holy crap that looks nasty. Of course after they find out that it was just a diversion, can't really use the one trick pony again.

But let me pose you a question would you take a spawn over Fabius Bile?

Is it just me who can't find what the icons actually do in the codex? I have seen the little half-a-table run down in the "wargear" section but from what I have seen it does not give an actual "add 1 to WS" (or whatever) stat for each icon.

Anyone help me out with a page number or something, as it is really driving me insane trying to find it*.

And I would like to make Raptors a little better. I would agree with the posessed and spawn needing some re-working.



*I may just be being very special and not seeing it.

SilverMK2 wrote:Is it just me who can't find what the icons actually do in the codex? I have seen the little half-a-table run down in the "wargear" section but from what I have seen it does not give an actual "add 1 to WS" (or whatever) stat for each icon.

Anyone help me out with a page number or something, as it is really driving me insane trying to find it*.

And I would like to make Raptors a little better. I would agree with the posessed and spawn needing some re-working.



*I may just be being very special and not seeing it.

Page 81 list what the Icons do. All Icons due is give a bonus to whatever stat they say, and they do list it in that table. Icons also confer the personal Icon so you don't have to take both if you have one of the main four.

And as for your raptors how do you usually equip them with?

And my bad the actual statline for the chaos marks is on page 25 of the codex, with the top of the page labeled FORCES OF CHAOS. it will be in a little box next to the picture bottom of the page, so forget about my page 81 thingie and go to page 25.

Cheers Protoman. I will check it out when I get home. I was just expecting it all to be, you know, in one place, in the bit which tells you what everything else does in the wargear section - probably explains why I keep skipping past it because I am not expecting to see anything on p25

And I've only run them a couple of times. In an 8 man squad with champ with pp, and a melta.

They just get bogged down in CC for the entire game with a relatively weak squad of SM (I only really played them against my brother who has BA). Though I may add another melta and go tank hunting with them, they just don't really seem to be all that great in CC compared to other jump infantry.

@TheTrueProtoman

Possessed: Yes, they are over priced, but they are still functional.
I’ve seen many people slag them for that, but the unit itself is very good at what it does. Which is mainly counter attack 5/6 of the time.
Certainly other troop options look better for points, but funny enough I would say Possessed are a lot more consistent in the counter attack role than the other choices.

Whenever I play ‘fun’ games with my Crap Legion, 8 Possessed, IoCG, Rhino have always been the MVPs and overachievers in the game.

Dreads: the old rules were better and still kept to the crazy vibe.
Basically:
Old rules for Blood Frenzy was: Fleet and x2 Attacks, but was ‘rage’.
Old rules for Fire Frenzy is similar to the rules now, BUT. Only if there were no enemy units in LoS, then the dread would shoot own guys. Not just the closest unit.

@H.B.M.C.

Spawn are bad for points ( much like possessed and other ‘crap’ options in the CSM dex ).
I use these as well in my Crap Legion and they do a lot better than the a lot of the other stuff I take in it.

No armor save is offset by: A decent number of wounds and cover saves along the way.
They move randomly, but that is a charm you’ll live with…in most cases they are pretty far reaching. If they don’t charge then they are doing well and essentially waiting for back up as they shamble forward, if they do charge, then they’ve gotten a high roll and got to tie up the enemy, win/win.

No retreat wounds sucks, but not much to do there.

See, the best application for Spawns is to set them up with attacking/charging vehicles in mind, they are perfectly capable of tearing most tanks apart in combat…and are efficient at that as you can train other guns elsewhere.

Should you RELY on possessed and spawn, of course not, are they expensive, yes. But they are functional units…if given the chance, will do well in their niches.

@SilverMK2

The icon stuff is just hidden away in 2 separate places…it’s stupid, yes.

Raptors are just a bit bland…esp. losing out: Hit and and Run and daemonic visage…at least keep one IMO.
Possessed and Spawn only really need to rework the points.
Actually I would much more prefer the 3.5 Dex Spawn.

Ok that's what I thought about possessed was just throwing them into a rhino, I'll try that out in a game for laughs. And as for the spawn, it is over priced, but hey in a joke game, they can be a bullet hose sponge in cover which is what I did with them.

And as for the raptors, I actually enjoy taking dual lightning claws and one of the others with a flamer. I actually really do enjoy the flamer due to the fact is with the speed of the raptors I can maneuver them into the best flamer template position which this will usually take out a couple unless the rolls are good. But the lightning claws means that you will kill them with wounds in melee combat. This is what works for me, and you can tank hunt with them since you can have a melta and power fist within the group.

I just also wish the raptors had more options, how much is a standard Space marine Assault marine? I can't remember of the top of my head.

Raptors are 2 points more expensive than loyalist Ass Marines...figures with the Smurf love and all from GW.

I've used:
10 Raptors, 2 Meltas, IoCG, Double Claws, as a generalist unit...it basically acted as my 'third daemon prince', with the other two daemon princes on each side flying around.

It was quite meh...I ended up trading them for 20 lesser daemons, and have been very happy with them.

Neverless raptors are no diffrent than my Blood Angels got the jump packs use them go after small CC weak enimies that you can take out in 1 round and leave the big units to the tanks and Havocs! Jumppacks = mobility so keep it going in the game!

I used possessed for the first time awhile ago...the rocked. Ran them in a flanking maneuver with a unit of berzerkers, both in rhinos. They ate the face off my brother's SMs.

Raptors....seem to just be overly expensive assault marines :( Lost their cool rules

Well if you got the extra points to blow then they are good in my opinion but yes a little spendy points wise!

Well Raptors do excel in special weapon delivery...pretty much melta delivery and cheap flamer when compared to Ass marines.

But the ATSKNF and possibly Combat Tactics far outweight the Icon system.

Raptors lost an edge.
They were able to take 3 meltas in the former incarnation of the codex.

Raptors were also 29 points before.


Raptors are CSM with jump packs. They dont need 10 men to have two meltas. In other words, theyre great. Easily one of the most underrated units in the book, especially if you know how to use them.

Theres just something about being a threat and not being able to be shot at, and then the next turn hoping over their cover and annihilating something.

Well you are the nightlords, so I am going to take your word for it. I need to get some models to try them out, probably going to buy the regular marine jump packs and convert them for KAAAYOOOS.

Yeah, they are like normal Assault Marines,
but with the option to take 2 special weapons.
As they are quite fast, either two meltas or two flamers are the best option these days.

If I may, can I just ask quickly about rules?

I've heard that using one of the icons that goes army-wide forces your troop choices down. I've read through the CSM codex a couple of times, but haven't been able to find it.

Something like Khorne not being allowed bikes or something?

Can anyone confirm this or, even better, provide me with a list of said limits?

There are no limits on what units you can take for taking specific icons. The only limit is if you take a DP with MoK as he can not have a psychic powers because Khorne does not believe in magic or santie claus and other magical beings.

Ah, thanks for that.

Now I just have to choose, Khorne or Tzeentch...

Vindicator#9 wrote:Khorne does not believe in magic or santie claus and other magical beings.

I think, I'm going to sig that .

Back to raptors.
But they were full of flavor for 29 points...

Triple Special weapons, Daemonic Visage, HIT AND RUN...20 points for the basic raptor, 22 points + Visage, resulting in Hit and run and a third weapon slot worth about 7 points per model.

Unique and flavorful...now bland and Spiky Assault Marine-ness.

I'd much rather get CSM in a rhino.
Hell, I'd rather get lesser daemons.
^ That shows that there is something wrong with the codex in general, but not in a 'functional' point of view.

They need to make it so that I cna have my damn demons actually be god specific instead of generic crap.

I want them to make it so that if I run a Khorne Themed army I can have Bloodletters.

I want raptors to go bak to what they were previously they suck now.

I want them to make it so that Chaos Space Marine Bikers are not fething 33 points a model.

I want them to get rid of Icons all together and go back to the squad having marks.

Most of all I'd like to be able to field my themed armies and them have some sort of unique rule but no my Iron Warriors cannot have 6 dreadnoughts even though the Space Marines can.

@Hollismason:

They need to make it so that I cna have my damn demons actually be god specific instead of generic crap.

Generic? Yes. Crap? No.

I want them to get rid of Icons all together and go back to the squad having marks.

I agree 99%... I may be old fashioned but the old restrictions of what could and could not get marks was decent enough.

Oh and 6 dreads... pfft, seriously, lets not suggest more things that would make us more of a mirror to the Loyalists.

Vindicator#9 wrote:There are no limits on what units you can take for taking specific icons. The only limit is if you take a DP with MoK as he can not have a psychic powers because Khorne does not believe in magic or santie claus and other magical beings.

Its not that he doesn't believe in magic as much, more that he looks down upon magic as fit for the weak cowardly and bereft of martial pride and honour

as to the OP...who wishes our troops would change? IMO our troops section is the best part of our codex, one of the best troop sections in all of the codices