Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

*Edited List*

HQ
Weirdboy (Warphead) (85 Points)

Elite
(Dropped Kommandos)

Troops
30 Boyz (29Shoota Boyz, 1Nob+pk+BP) (210 Points)
30 Boyz (29Shoota Boyz, 1Nob+pk+BP) (210 Points)
30 Boyz (29Shoota Boyz, 1Nob+pk+BP) (210 Points)
29 gretchen 2 runtherd (107 points) Grot cover Strung out in front

Fast Attack
1Deffkopta (TL Rockets, Buzsaw) (70 points)
1Deffkopta (TL Rockets, Buzsaw) (70 points)
1Deffkopta (TL Rockets) (45 points)
(Taking these independently to avioid Leadership probs)

Heavy Support
0

Comes out to 1007 points now. Again, C&C welcomed.

I'd drop the Kommandos. They don't really fit in this army. They are going to be hung out to dry before your army makes it up the board. Use those points for another squad of boyz or maybe some Lootas?

Swap out the Weirdboy for a KFF Mek. Get those boyz a cover save.

Flyinmiata1 wrote:
Swap out the Weirdboy for a KFF Mek. Get those boyz a cover save.

This.
I'd also take a screening unit to up the cover to 4+ for a few turns, perhaps a cheap grot squad at this point level? Heck, if you drop the kommandos or koptas you could get a nice wall of Kans.
I won't tell you the kommandos are a bad idea, as I use that loadout to great effect in my 1500+ mechanized lists... I'm just not sure I'd use them at this point level for footsloggers.

Drop the kommandos for sure, if you put your mind to it you can field 115 boyz, with 3 PK, 4 Bosspoles, 1 big choopa, and have points left over to buy a pair of KFF big meks. In fact I have a list very similar to this, watch people balk as you run at them screamming Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

Greetings!

I'm a huge fan of Kommandos....but they really don't fit this army. Snikrot will come out (most likely) on turn 2 or 3, when your army is probably still slogging it into combat. For 107 points, you can get 29 gretchin and 2 runt herders; screen them in a big line, send them up the field in front of all your boys, and suddenly all your boys have 4+ saves and laugh off AP anything.

As much as I hate to say this...if you're going to take deffkoptas, you kind of need buzzsaws on them. You do NOT want a bunch of tanks (especially IG) having several rounds of free shooting at you if you can help it.

-If you get first turn, your deffkoptas take a scout move 24" up the table, 12" during your move phase (to behind some tanks/predators/anything you like) and shoot rear armor, then assault it.

-If you don't get first turn, your deffkoptas take a scout move 24" up the table, and get a 3+ cover save while drawing fire OR outflank to get side/rear armor on turn 2+. Either method works.

Taking out those 10 kommandos, 2 burnas and Snikrot lets you flesh out the units you have - 30 boys instead of 27 boys....buzzsaws on the deffkoptas. Maybe even consider Old Zogwort instead of a regular Weirdboy.

ok i edited my list, dropped Kommandos, and added Grot cover squad, and 2 buzsaws on my deffkoptas,. i am at 1007 points now, i might drop a boy to get to 1001. any other sugestions?

pretty ok list. haha) 1000 pts with 125 model count

I personaly hate weidboys, fun, but way too random to be a viable solution to any problem. They can be good, or they can contiunaly blow up your own troops. I vote no to wierd boy, use the points to buy a warboss, or a big mek. In fact a big mek w/KFF is exactly 85 points, and will help you against indirect fire, or when your grots die. I might not suggest grots, yes they do give you a 4+ cover save, but so do other orks, and orks only cost 3 more points then grots, and are way more then twice as useful.

The big mek's 85 points to give a 5+ cover save to anything within 6" vs 107 points for a troop choice scoring unit that gives a 4+ cover save to the whole army. And if you take some serious fire in one unit, you can go to ground for a turn to get a 3+ save instead. Those gretchin are cheap, and more durable than a big mek with a KFF.

Using Orks to give other orks cover saves *is* only three points more expensive....but a waste (unless you're doing 'Ard Boyz + Mad Dok for 4+/4+ FNP saves) as a screening unit.

I disagree, if you stick a bigmek in a unit of boyz he is pretty safe, unless they field vindicators. Also with the big mek you only need one model within 6" to count the whole squad as in cover. Also when vehicles shoot at your orks you won't get a cover save against pie plates (the bane of orks) if you use grots as cover.

but with the big mek with KFF you only get a 5+ you only have a 33% chance of not getting blown up, with more grots for example you get 4+ which is 50% chance. the extra 3 points per boy is a LOOOT of points for an orc army. you can get 2 gretching for each boy meaning getting the greatchin is like upgrading all your boys to nobs. the screen isn't meant to do anything but die, and by the time you get to your opponent they are most likely already dead.

another point is, the fact that they are gretchin gives your opponent a choice. kill the tiny wall protecting the orcs, or ignore them and try to kill the orcs with cover save. meaning it'll make your opponent think more compared to him just shooting at the boys in the front

despoiler, there's only a few ordnance rounds that ignore cover. The Mek with the KFF bestows a 5+ cover save, not a 5+ invulnerable save....either way is a cover save, except using the gretchin gives you a better cover save. There *is* no downside. I have no idea where you get the idea that boys don't get cover saves from pie plates - the weapon profile specifically has to mention ignoring cover; there's only a couple that do that...and if you get hit with them, it doesn't matter where the cover save is coming from.

And umm....like I said; the gretchin are a SCORING unit and a troops choice. You can get a 31 model unit for 20 points more than the single model, and get a scoring unit, a bullet shield, and 4+ cover saves for your whole army out of it. There's simply no contest.

To count as cover they must physicaly block some line of sight, and since many ordanance weapons are mounted on vehicles they can see right over the grots. Also grots have very little combat cappibilities, so by doubling their point cost you increase their effectiveness exponentialy.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, there's only a few ordnance rounds that ignore cover.

Barrage Barrage Barrage Barrage Barrage

To count as cover they must physicaly block some line of sight, and since many ordanance weapons are mounted on vehicles they can see right over the grots. Also grots have very little combat cappibilities, so by doubling their point cost you increase their effectiveness exponentialy.

Why would you want to double the cost of a unit you want your opponent to waste shots on or ignore?
You can have a screen of expensive boyz that are the same as the units behind them so your opponent doesn't mind tearing into them.
Or you can have a screen of cheap grots that your opponent has to choose to ignore and give your boyz cover or shoot at and waste shots on a throwaway junk squad, while spending the extra points on boyz in cover.

I'm saying that for the points you might as well have a shield with some combat abilities. Also twice as survivable, grots can die and capture objectives, fighting, not so much. Why not have a shiled that can actualy do something, more points, yes, but they are more then twice as useful.

despoiler, you may wish to reread the rules. You're a bit confused about how cover works.

For vehicles to receive a cover save, 50% of the vehicle must be physically obscured from line of sight.

For troops to receive a cover save, there's a bunch of scenarios regarding terrain; however anytime you fire through a unit, a cover save is automatically granted. From page 21 of the rulebook, "If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save..."

Turn to page 22: Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover EVEN IF IT IS COMPLETELY VISIBLE TO THE FIRER.

IE, anytime you fire through a unit, the unit on the other side automatically has a 4+ cover save. I've said this before (and to you I think) but please...PLEASE consult the rulebook before you dispense bad advice or illegal rulings.

A unit of gretchin, even if they are 1mm tall grant a cover save to the units on either side of them shooting at each other. Yes, a unit of gretchin providing 4+ cover saves to the whole rest of the army is great fun.


And Gorkamorka, barrage weapons don't ignore cover. There are some cases where it may bypass cover depending on where the center hole of the marker lands, but page 32 of the rulebook says, "Remember that models in area terrain get their cover save regardless of the direction the shot is coming from."

I can't speak for anyone else, but I ask when a game starts what blast weapons and anti-tank my opponents have. If they're packing a bunch of ordnance, or tau with airbursting frag launcher.....well, I play a bit differently, and I'd expect any halfway intelligent player to do the same. You know why ordnance doesn't bother me as an Ork player? My boys are in vehicles, and you have to kill the vehicles to get to the boys inside. The vehicles have survivability. If If you wreck it, I deploy out to get cover. If you explode it, you created a crater and wreckage, which is area terrain and I've got a 4+ cover save anyway.

For a foot-slogging army, I hide behind gretchin to get a 4+ cover save. In a typical game, there are 6-7 pieces of terrain (roughly 12" square) covering approximately 25% of the gaming surface. I use all that to give me cover saves where needed too. For things with barrage and cover ignoring saves....(like basilisks) those are paper cannons. A deffkopta on turn 1 will end that threat.

Dashofpepper wrote:
And Gorkamorka, barrage weapons don't ignore cover. There are some cases where it may bypass cover depending on where the center hole of the marker lands, but page 32 of the rulebook says, "Remember that models in area terrain get their cover save regardless of the direction the shot is coming from."

I assumed you were making the standard mistake of saying ordnance and not barrage measured cover from the center hole. A barrage blast would almost always ignore a screen's cover, so it would be a much more obvious example to give in this situation than a vague reference to some ordnance.
IIRC Non-barrage ordnance weapons don't have anything to do with cover, so unless you were thinking of a specific example I'm not sure what you were talking about.

Defiantely take the Big Mek with KFF in this list. A 5+ cover that can only be removed by an "ignores cover" or assault makes this list a whole lot more survivable walking up the field. Yes you can get a 4+ by meatshielding but that doesn't protect vs barrage and fast units shooting at you from angles that you meat doesn't shield.

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, you may wish to reread the rules. You're a bit confused about how cover works.

For vehicles to receive a cover save, 50% of the vehicle must be physically obscured from line of sight.

For troops to receive a cover save, there's a bunch of scenarios regarding terrain; however anytime you fire through a unit, a cover save is automatically granted. From page 21 of the rulebook, "If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save..."

Turn to page 22: Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover EVEN IF IT IS COMPLETELY VISIBLE TO THE FIRER.

IE, anytime you fire through a unit, the unit on the other side automatically has a 4+ cover save. I've said this before (and to you I think) but please...PLEASE consult the rulebook before you dispense bad advice or illegal rulings.

A unit of gretchin, even if they are 1mm tall grant a cover save to the units on either side of them shooting at each other. Yes, a unit of gretchin providing 4+ cover saves to the whole rest of the army is great fun.

This only works if they cannot completely see OVER the gretchin. For infantry firing on infantry, you almost always get the save, but from a tank, the LOS is measured from the gun itself, and if, from that angle, NONE of the gretchin are visibly next to the models in the unit being fired upon, you get no save. Same thing from snipers on a building looking down over the gretchin. The argument presented was that boyz are taller than gretchin, and therefore more likely to give a cover save based on LOS.

It's still not worth the points, but that was the idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bro, I am sad to see the Kommandos go, as well as the storm boyz. I like both.

I love the weirdboy, as he is random, and powerful. You may not be super amazing competitive with him, but it's gonna be more fun!

I played against Deffkoptas yesterday, and they were kinda scary. If I was you, I would take 2 (still separately) and put the storm boyz back in. It's just too useful to have the super-fast attacks, and option to deepstrike, with ALL THOSE BODIES.

The Deffkoptas I fought were both taken down in CC with a single Tac squad. Scary, but fragile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You might add back both the storm boyz and the kommandos for your 1500 list.

spycer wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:despoiler, you may wish to reread the rules. You're a bit confused about how cover works.

For vehicles to receive a cover save, 50% of the vehicle must be physically obscured from line of sight.

For troops to receive a cover save, there's a bunch of scenarios regarding terrain; however anytime you fire through a unit, a cover save is automatically granted. From page 21 of the rulebook, "If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save..."

Turn to page 22: Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover EVEN IF IT IS COMPLETELY VISIBLE TO THE FIRER.

IE, anytime you fire through a unit, the unit on the other side automatically has a 4+ cover save. I've said this before (and to you I think) but please...PLEASE consult the rulebook before you dispense bad advice or illegal rulings.

A unit of gretchin, even if they are 1mm tall grant a cover save to the units on either side of them shooting at each other. Yes, a unit of gretchin providing 4+ cover saves to the whole rest of the army is great fun.

This only works if they cannot completely see OVER the gretchin. For infantry firing on infantry, you almost always get the save, but from a tank, the LOS is measured from the gun itself, and if, from that angle, NONE of the gretchin are visibly next to the models in the unit being fired upon, you get no save. Same thing from snipers on a building looking down over the gretchin. The argument presented was that boyz are taller than gretchin, and therefore more likely to give a cover save based on LOS.

It's still not worth the points, but that was the idea.

You would have to be at quite an angle to ignore the gretchin for the majority of the boyz, much higher than a tank mount 2 inches off the table at any notable distance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for clarity, blue guy gets a cover save, red guy doesn't. So if the models on the line of black guys were taller, red guy WOULD get a cover save.

This view is, of course, from the POV of the shooter/firing weapon.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorkamorka wrote:
You would have to be at quite an angle to ignore the gretchin for the majority of the boyz, much higher than a tank mount 2 inches off the table at any notable distance.

Anything like a vindicator, land raider, exorsist, really anything on a tank that isnt a sponson is going to see over them unless your boyz are RIGHT behind the gretchin line.

Still not a bad tactic. Just means you can't assume that all gretchin give all boyz cover all the time. Anyone on even a hill (like the std GW tables with built in hills) can usually see over them.

spycer wrote:Yes, yes I did. But thanks for being insulting.

I apologise for the condescending tone, I corrected my post in under a minute when I remembered the second half of Dash's quoted paragraph.
But seriously, go sit a ~2" model in front of a ~3" model and look at the line from the top of the small models head to the edge of the base of the tall model. Until something like 6" back you don't get a line that would ignore the gretchin with an average tank shot from as little as a foot away. It's a nonissue unless we're talking about skimmers or ruins or something.



is a bit misleading, as the red guy's distance and elevation is completely arbitrary.

I'll see if I can whip something up.

Not really to accurate scale, but you can see where I'm coming from. Even with a fair ammount of separation even a sizable tank will have an aweful tough time getting their gun mount past that line at any decent range. Hills and such aside, of course.

I find that the ruins, buildings and hills, as well as tanks tall enough to see over, with guns that shoot far enough to shoot over, are going to be common enough to consider other ways to look for saves, in addition to the gretchin.

Thanks for the apology, I do appreciate it, really.

Anyway, I think the gretchin are good. And probably FAR more worth it than the extra boyz trying to give the same cover, for the points. On the other hand, gretchin or no, if you can get one squad of boyz covering just over half the other squad, they are giving cover that is REALLY hard to see over.

spycer wrote:I find that the ruins, buildings and hills, as well as tanks tall enough to see over, with guns that shoot far enough to shoot over, are going to be common enough to consider other ways to look for saves, in addition to the gretchin.

Thanks for the apology, I do appreciate it, really.

Anyway, I think the gretchin are good. And probably FAR more worth it than the extra boyz trying to give the same cover, for the points. On the other hand, gretchin or no, if you can get one squad of boyz covering just over half the other squad, they are giving cover that is REALLY hard to see over.

It's one of the reasons I favor the kan wall approach. Everyone gets 4+ most of the time, and the wall is quite hardy and effective for a fair price pointwise. You can get 6 shoota or grotzooka kans for ~250-270 points.

That's actually really tempting. Spatters all over the enemy on the way there, but either gives cover, or outright blocks LOS on the horde until they arrive.

spycer wrote:That's actually really tempting. Spatters all over the enemy on the way there, but either gives cover, or outright blocks LOS on the horde until they arrive.

And they're inside the KFF, so the Kans get 4+ obscured if you do it right.

Really, i think that a gunline or templates are going to ruin your day. Does it have to be all footsloggind. A unit in a battle wagon would be really good. IMO, you shouldnt have dropped the kommandos. I'd change it by knocking some units down to 20 and putting them in BWs. I'd also add some stormboyz.

Eldar Own wrote:Really, i think that a gunline or templates are going to ruin your day. Does it have to be all footsloggind. A unit in a battle wagon would be really good. IMO, you shouldnt have dropped the kommandos. I'd change it by knocking some units down to 20 and putting them in BWs. I'd also add some stormboyz.

Mechanized lists are great, but they're a completely different army style. A 1k mechanized list would have half as many troops, easily.
You'd be surprised how many blasts, shots, and templates a hundred fearless T4 4+ orks can absorb while still being able to crunch the opposition. You can take large numbers of casualties and still be comparatively cost effective to a transported unit. Footslogging can be quite brutal, if done right.

And while a kan-wall is nice, that isn't what the OP is running or proposing, so I've shied away from it. =p

As for cover....that's really a subject for YMDC...I'd encourage you to take that diagram over to YMDC and start a discussion. The rulebook doesn't talk about elevation or declination or firing over a unit's head into a unit behind them, it simply makes a distinction:

1. There is a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.
2. There is not a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.

Those are the two scenarios presented in the rulebook. In scenario 1, a 4+ cover save is granted. It doesn't matter if the models or unit is obscured or not; in fact, it tells you that you should consider it a save becaues of the difficulty in the firer getting a clear shot through the running battle.

If you have an elevated sniper sitting 24" above the battlefield peering straight down at my ranks of orks and you fire at...not the first rank; RAW - I get a 4+ cover save. If not, where do you draw the line? If I have a rank of gretchin, and a rank of orks behind them....and I have one ork out of 20 with legs obscured behind a gretchin and you can't see the legs...does the whole unit get cover saves? What about two orks? What about one ork with toes obstructed from view, and one other ork with an arm blocked from view?

Its not up to you or me to decide where the line is, the rulebook does it for us. If there is a unit between us, and we shoot at each other, we both get 4+ cover saves.

For a pure foot slogger, wouldn't one rather have Thraka instead? The 2nd/3rd turn fulll 6" Waaagh! seems to be what a bunch of foot sloggers need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:And while a kan-wall is nice, that isn't what the OP is running or proposing, so I've shied away from it. =p

As for cover....that's really a subject for YMDC...I'd encourage you to take that diagram over to YMDC and start a discussion. The rulebook doesn't talk about elevation or declination or firing over a unit's head into a unit behind them, it simply makes a distinction:

1. There is a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.
2. There is not a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.

Those are the two scenarios presented in the rulebook. In scenario 1, a 4+ cover save is granted. It doesn't matter if the models or unit is obscured or not; in fact, it tells you that you should consider it a save becaues of the difficulty in the firer getting a clear shot through the running battle.

If you have an elevated sniper sitting 24" above the battlefield peering straight down at my ranks of orks and you fire at...not the first rank; RAW - I get a 4+ cover save. If not, where do you draw the line? If I have a rank of gretchin, and a rank of orks behind them....and I have one ork out of 20 with legs obscured behind a gretchin and you can't see the legs...does the whole unit get cover saves? What about two orks? What about one ork with toes obstructed from view, and one other ork with an arm blocked from view?

Its not up to you or me to decide where the line is, the rulebook does it for us. If there is a unit between us, and we shoot at each other, we both get 4+ cover saves.

I completely see what you are saying.

I re-read the section just now, and for models in the way, it says if it is physically blocking line of sight to any part of the model. So in the above diagram, even the blue guy does not get a save. The 'shooting in between something' bit is for shooting in between pieces of area cover, example shown is trees.