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Dashofpepper wrote:And while a kan-wall is nice, that isn't what the OP is running or proposing, so I've shied away from it. =p

As for cover....that's really a subject for YMDC...I'd encourage you to take that diagram over to YMDC and start a discussion. The rulebook doesn't talk about elevation or declination or firing over a unit's head into a unit behind them, it simply makes a distinction:

1. There is a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.
2. There is not a unit of some sort between you and the unit you are firing at.

Those are the two scenarios presented in the rulebook. In scenario 1, a 4+ cover save is granted. It doesn't matter if the models or unit is obscured or not; in fact, it tells you that you should consider it a save becaues of the difficulty in the firer getting a clear shot through the running battle.

If you have an elevated sniper sitting 24" above the battlefield peering straight down at my ranks of orks and you fire at...not the first rank; RAW - I get a 4+ cover save. If not, where do you draw the line? If I have a rank of gretchin, and a rank of orks behind them....and I have one ork out of 20 with legs obscured behind a gretchin and you can't see the legs...does the whole unit get cover saves? What about two orks? What about one ork with toes obstructed from view, and one other ork with an arm blocked from view?

Its not up to you or me to decide where the line is, the rulebook does it for us. If there is a unit between us, and we shoot at each other, we both get 4+ cover saves.

The gap rule states:
Firing through units or area terrain: If a model
fires through the gaps between some elements of
area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood)
or through the gaps between models in an
intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is
completely visible to the firer. Note that this does
not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit
rather than through it.

It's that last sentence that we're talking about, firing through a gap wise. If you are shooting 'over' the screening unit, then the gaps between intervening models don't work as cover (and neither do the models).
If you aren't shooting 'over' the unit, then the gaps count (as do any models that actually cover).

In the 'one set of toes covered' case, that model would have cover as would any who were in between gaps the firer wasn't shooting over. As far as I can tell, anyway.

Sorry, missed that part. Then the above diagram should be right, with Red out of cover, as I really can't see 'visually above' as being 'in between'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh. I just realized you added a second diagram. It does illustrate your point quite well.

spycer wrote:Heh. I just realized you added a second diagram. It does illustrate your point quite well.

I really need to stop editing even single sentence posts half a dozen times.

Gorkamorka wrote:

spycer wrote:Heh. I just realized you added a second diagram. It does illustrate your point quite well.

I really need to stop editing even single sentence posts half a dozen times.

Yeah, I have that problem sometimes, too.

Anyway, this diagram here:



The tank about the same distance from the grot as the boy. Anything closer or taller can see over. Also, I think my tank may be a little short. I would need to borrow my brothers boyz and gretchin, and see how this works in actually works in reality, as far as feasible cover distance.

I love learning new things.

The answer here then is to use the gretchin as a close screen for the orks - then there's no way to see over them and get a full non-cover save.

Exactly. Just don't move the gretchin too far away from the boyz and one has to either chew up the screen, or accept the boyz having cover.

The next question I have, if I hit the center of the line with a large blast template and blow a hole in it, do the two halves still give cover that same turn?

One would have to be dumb to allocate the wounds to the center members of the mob, thus breaking coherency, true. But the rules don't stop someone from being dumb.

Just wondering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I don't know why my latest diagram has so much extra white space at the top. Good job, self!

spycer wrote:Exactly. Just don't move the gretchin too far away from the boyz and one has to either chew up the screen, or accept the boyz having cover.

The next question I have, if I hit the center of the line with a large blast template and blow a hole in it, do the two halves still give cover that same turn?

One would have to be dumb to allocate the wounds to the center members of the mob, thus breaking coherency, true. But the rules don't stop someone from being dumb.

Just wondering.

If you hit the grots? Sure, if your opponent allocates the unsaved wounds to the center, then the rest still give cover just fine. Coherency doesn't matter.
The ones that are removed do not give cover for the rest of the phase or anything, but the gap still would if you were shooting through it. Nifty.

Okay, black=grots. blue and red are boyz from 2 different squads.

Obviously Red here gets a coversave. Does blue, since he is still 'between' grots, visually, or, since there is no one blocking him directly that is in coherency, does he get no save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and the black grots were all the same unit before I shot that nice hole in them.

spycer wrote:

Okay, black=grots. blue and red are boyz from 2 different squads.

Obviously Red here gets a coversave. Does blue, since he is still 'between' grots, visually, or, since there is no one blocking him directly that is in coherency, does he get no save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and the black grots were all the same unit before I shot that nice hole in them.

Unless there's some rule regarding cover/coherency I'm completely forgetting then sure, the gap would count as cover if someone fired at blue through it.

That's what I was thinking. In that case, one could leave one Grot on the end and take casualties from the 2nd model going in, and keep cover up for the whole shooting phase, lose that last guy on the last unit that shoots, (hopefully) end up in coherency and milk all the cover saves from the unit you can.

spycer wrote:That's what I was thinking. In that case, one could leave one Grot on the end and take casualties from the 2nd model going in, and keep cover up for the whole shooting phase, lose that last guy on the last unit that shoots, (hopefully) end up in coherency and milk all the cover saves from the unit you can.

If someone shoots at your grots, then your boyz for them to get cover, then at your grots again later in the phase... then yes.

It's not going to be amazing, game changing tactics, but it seems to me the smarter way to take casualties.

Another friend of mine plays 'crons. Wonder how this sort of creative casualty taking might work out there, with the WBB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, sorry, Kaltak, for jacking your thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, as this is Kaltak's thread, and he wanted some advice, let's see what we can work up for him.

He's my brother, so I know what models he has so far.

He's got:

the weird boy
about 20 boyz
about 20 storm boyz
zagstruk and
snikrot
iirc.

No kommandos yet, but I know he wants 'em, and I know he was interested in the Kan line, in one way or another.

He's going to need more boyz, sure, and if hes going to use snikrot, then some kommandos too, for sure. Any ideas on how to take what he actually has and bring the pain for my poor, unfortunate space marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I might split a blackreach with him sometime soon, so those are easy additions, if any of them come in handy.

I know he's looking at deffkoptas, but after buying all those storm boyz, I would hate to drop them all together.

I dropped the Stormboyz (only have 10 so far) for the Koptas because stormboyz aren't anti tank, and thats what i need right now.

It was hard to cut the kommandos, but for my first few games i want to learn how to play with out them when i start playing at 1500 Kommandos are back in for sure. i also want to build a mech ork list, but i am trying to start off with something more simple, and yet still a little dangerous.

I forgot the s' boyz were 5 per box, not 10. My bad.

anyone have any sugestions on how i can beat his SM army with this list? looking for tactical ideas i guess

My current 1k list, for comparison:

HQ
Pedro Kantor 175

Troops
Tactical Squad 10 170
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Chainsword
Razorback 40


Tactical Squad 10 170
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Chainsword
Rhino 35

Elites
Sternguard Veterans 7 210
Combi-meltas 3
Combi-flamers 4
Drop Pod 65
Locator Beacon
Deathwind ML

Fast Attack
Assault Squad 5 135
Plasma pistol
Power Weapon
Melta Bombs

He is meta against swarm pretty hard, I honestly can't see you winning without armoring up or taking a cybork horde. KFF wouldn't even help a ton against that list because the flamers are going to tear a hole through your lines. Only thing I could suggest would be a battlewagon and a pile of lootas.

After really realizing what i am up against, i am scraping this list. my Bro will be my main Opponent, and from what i see this list doesnt stand a chance. :(

my new list can be found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267918.page i am going with a Mek Ork List, been toying with the idea for a while. i also have VERY few models, and so making this transision now should make it easier down the line Thank you every one for all your help, and ideas, and the great debate that was sparked. i learned a lot

Combine your Deff-Koptas into 1 unit.
Right now they are to easy VPs otherwise, and can cost you on 1/3 of the missions.

Since the thread was bumped already... on page 6 of the new INAT faq there's actually a nice description+picture of shooting over units to negate the gap cover. Looks like we had it right, in the end.

Fair enough, and good to know.

Also, you edited again? :p

Gorkamorka wrote:The gap rule states:
Firing through units or area terrain: If a model
fires through the gaps between some elements of
area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood)
or through the gaps between models in an
intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is
completely visible to the firer. Note that this does
not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit
rather than through it.

I don't understand. It's a true line of sight game. The rule is right there. In any of those situations you guys made pictures of, the models behind were never in cover. In every situation, you could fire OVER the unit in front, thus passing the cover. Now, I would probably give cover to the guys only slightly above the line of grots, as 50% is covered... thus it's cover. But frankly, if you can fire over... then you fired over. Assuming that those models were single model units, then the rules only go by if you can see and shoot that one guy, without having to shoot through the model in front. If you were shooting between a gap in a unit, you have cover... if you are shooting at a guy above the gap... its not cover.

The diagram of the angle of Boy to Grot to Russ is wrong. If you can draw a line from his head, to the barrel of the Russ, you are not shooting through cover. Again, I would probably give it to you... but if I can hit his belt (50% above the cover line) then I wouldn't give you any cover, as I can clearly shoot over the grots. If we fought about it, then you would get 5+ at best (if you can't decide, add a -1 multiplier... etc etc)

As for the army list, footslogging is hilarious to me. I play IG, and against orks, I will spread out my army all over the field, behind cover, impassible terrain, lava, acid pools... anything I can find that will require you to slog more inches. I have the range to hit you from anywhere on the map (average of 3' - 4' range on most heavy weapons). My whole army has options to ignore cover not granted by area terrain. Mortars (troops), Flamers (troops), Heavy Flamers (can be taken on any vehicle, or in some troop squads), Inferno Cannon (Hellhound), Battle Cannon (Leman Russ). By no means is that all... AND my whole army can do that, while ripping up your boys with heavy bolter fire from 3+ feet. Also, Lasguns... they actually work well against orks... and I've got lots.

Now, my army is probably one of the best armies versus orks, especially if I know beforehand that I am playing orks, and can write an appropriate list. My recommendations would be first off... bring the KFF. Anyone who ever says otherwise is a fool. There is nothing more annoying in an ork army than KFF saves. I have lost more games because of KFF... than anything else. Deffkoptas are great. Aim for the scariest tank on the field. Bring them in squads of 2. One with a PK (or whatever they have that acts like a PK)... and the other bare bones. Pre-turn 1, scout move at big nasty tank... turn 1... blow up big nasty tank. The second Kopta lets you give extra wounds to the Kopta with the PK on the chance that I get to go first. If I do go first, I am going to fire Hydra Autocannon rounds, or Inferno Cannon templates (both ignore the cover saves they get for moving all out) at the Koptas first, they are priority 1. Bring Ghazskull (sp?), anything that will cut the time it takes for you to get to me in half is worth the points.

How I would play you? If second, I would set up as far away from you as possible. I would split my army into two forces on opposite corners of the map, in cover. If I go first, i would spread out my army as much as possible... keeping in cover or tops of buildings. If you split your forces to chase me, I would burn down anything that would die fast (after the Koptas), and then spend the rest of the game kiting your army around the map... I have the range to shoot you with 1/2 my force, while the other half runs from you. With orders, I can almost ensure that I will be able to move a full 12" every turn. Without Ghazskull, or transports, you can't.

Also you need to note that 2/3 of the games you can play are OBJECTIVE based... and an army of footsloggers that have to run across the map... and still somehow stay on the objectives... is not going to work. You need to get some sort of cheap option that you can use to leave on points... hopefully that isn't useless. Think grots, or shoota boyz.

That's all I've got for now, my Bio class is over.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
I don't understand. It's a true line of sight game. The rule is right there. In any of those situations you guys made pictures of, the models behind were never in cover. In every situation, you could fire OVER the unit in front, thus passing the cover. Now, I would probably give cover to the guys only slightly above the line of grots, as 50% is covered... thus it's cover.

Nope, 50% only applies to vehicles.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
But frankly, if you can fire over... then you fired over. Assuming that those models were single model units, then the rules only go by if you can see and shoot that one guy, without having to shoot through the model in front. If you were shooting between a gap in a unit, you have cover... if you are shooting at a guy above the gap... its not cover.

This was the consensus all around.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
The diagram of the angle of Boy to Grot to Russ is wrong. If you can draw a line from his head, to the barrel of the Russ, you are not shooting through cover. Again, I would probably give it to you... but if I can hit his belt (50% above the cover line) then I wouldn't give you any cover, as I can clearly shoot over the grots. If we fought about it, then you would get 5+ at best (if you can't decide, add a -1 multiplier... etc etc)

Nope, LOS is not measured from head to gun. Its measured from the tank gun to the ENTIRE model being fired at. If his TOES are obscured, its a full cover save.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
As for the army list, footslogging is hilarious to me. I play IG, and against orks, I will spread out my army all over the field, behind cover, impassible terrain, lava, acid pools... anything I can find that will require you to slog more inches. I have the range to hit you from anywhere on the map (average of 3' - 4' range on most heavy weapons). My whole army has options to ignore cover not granted by area terrain. Mortars (troops), Flamers (troops), Heavy Flamers (can be taken on any vehicle, or in some troop squads), Inferno Cannon (Hellhound), Battle Cannon (Leman Russ). By no means is that all... AND my whole army can do that, while ripping up your boys with heavy bolter fire from 3+ feet. Also, Lasguns... they actually work well against orks... and I've got lots.

Now, my army is probably one of the best armies versus orks, especially if I know beforehand that I am playing orks, and can write an appropriate list. My recommendations would be first off... bring the KFF.

KFF does nothing vs my Sternguard or all the flamer templates, which are the most common horde control weapons in this scenario.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Anyone who ever says otherwise is a fool.

Offensive.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
There is nothing more annoying in an ork army than KFF saves. I have lost more games because of KFF... than anything else. Deffkoptas are great. Aim for the scariest tank on the field. Bring them in squads of 2. One with a PK (or whatever they have that acts like a PK)... and the other bare bones. Pre-turn 1, scout move at big nasty tank... turn 1... blow up big nasty tank. The second Kopta lets you give extra wounds to the Kopta with the PK on the chance that I get to go first. If I do go first, I am going to fire Hydra Autocannon rounds, or Inferno Cannon templates (both ignore the cover saves they get for moving all out) at the Koptas first, they are priority 1. Bring Ghazskull (sp?), anything that will cut the time it takes for you to get to me in half is worth the points.

How I would play you? If second, I would set up as far away from you as possible. I would split my army into two forces on opposite corners of the map, in cover.

Assuming the terrain suits your tactics is a sure way to have the plan fail.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
If I go first, i would spread out my army as much as possible... keeping in cover or tops of buildings. If you split your forces to chase me, I would burn down anything that would die fast (after the Koptas), and then spend the rest of the game kiting your army around the map... I have the range to shoot you with 1/2 my force, while the other half runs from you. With orders, I can almost ensure that I will be able to move a full 12" every turn. Without Ghazskull, or transports, you can't.

Also you need to note that 2/3 of the games you can play are OBJECTIVE based... and an army of footsloggers that have to run across the map... and still somehow stay on the objectives... is not going to work.

False. He will get to place either half or half -1 of the objectives, which he can easily place on YOUR half of the board, aka 'where we are walking TO'. Works regularly, in my experiance.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
You need to get some sort of cheap option that you can use to leave on points... hopefully that isn't useless. Think grots, or shoota boyz.

That's all I've got for now, my Bio class is over.

Thoroughly useless and full of bad information. We already agreed on how the cover rules worked, and then you tried to argue from a similar point of view against no one, and then backed it up with inaccurate statements. Sad.

spycer wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The diagram of the angle of Boy to Grot to Russ is wrong. If you can draw a line from his head, to the barrel of the Russ, you are not shooting through cover. Again, I would probably give it to you... but if I can hit his belt (50% above the cover line) then I wouldn't give you any cover, as I can clearly shoot over the grots. If we fought about it, then you would get 5+ at best (if you can't decide, add a -1 multiplier... etc etc)

Nope, LOS is not measured from head to gun. Its measured from the tank gun to the ENTIRE model being fired at. If his TOES are obscured, its a full cover save.

Ok, this is right... rereading my handy dandy rulebook.

spycer wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:As for the army list, footslogging is hilarious to me. I play IG, and against orks, I will spread out my army all over the field, behind cover, impassible terrain, lava, acid pools... anything I can find that will require you to slog more inches. I have the range to hit you from anywhere on the map (average of 3' - 4' range on most heavy weapons). My whole army has options to ignore cover not granted by area terrain. Mortars (troops), Flamers (troops), Heavy Flamers (can be taken on any vehicle, or in some troop squads), Inferno Cannon (Hellhound), Battle Cannon (Leman Russ). By no means is that all... AND my whole army can do that, while ripping up your boys with heavy bolter fire from 3+ feet. Also, Lasguns... they actually work well against orks... and I've got lots.

Now, my army is probably one of the best armies versus orks, especially if I know beforehand that I am playing orks, and can write an appropriate list. My recommendations would be first off... bring the KFF.

KFF does nothing vs my Sternguard or all the flamer templates, which are the most common horde control weapons in this scenario.

Sternguard is an elite unit for doing whatever you need it to do. If you are going to name every single unit that could negate a certain strategy... and say the strategy is crap... then you will never be able to write an army list, because everything has a weakness. As for flamers, against a KFF... you have to be inside 9" to use a template weapon... which is assault range. Which basically means I've already lost, because the orks are in assault range, and I'm not running.

This is also not taking into consideration you completely took two different thoughts out of context. The paragraph about the 100s of different options I have for negating cover was to say that footslogging as a tactic is one of the least effective ones, IMO. The paragraph about the KFF was that it's a great wargear option, and ridiculously cheap for 5+ saves for your whole army, including vehicles (which meat shields do not provide). And that the KFF is the single most dangerous item in an ork army... If you want to come up with ways to get around the KFF, feel free... but it doesn't make it any less of a fantastic option. It's incredibly tiny cost upgrades your whole army. Not to mention KFF acts like area cover... and does not worry about things that measure from the center of a blast.

spycer wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:There is nothing more annoying in an ork army than KFF saves. I have lost more games because of KFF... than anything else. Deffkoptas are great. Aim for the scariest tank on the field. Bring them in squads of 2. One with a PK (or whatever they have that acts like a PK)... and the other bare bones. Pre-turn 1, scout move at big nasty tank... turn 1... blow up big nasty tank. The second Kopta lets you give extra wounds to the Kopta with the PK on the chance that I get to go first. If I do go first, I am going to fire Hydra Autocannon rounds, or Inferno Cannon templates (both ignore the cover saves they get for moving all out) at the Koptas first, they are priority 1. Bring Ghazskull (sp?), anything that will cut the time it takes for you to get to me in half is worth the points.

How I would play you? If second, I would set up as far away from you as possible. I would split my army into two forces on opposite corners of the map, in cover.

Assuming the terrain suits your tactics is a sure way to have the plan fail.

Considering that you get to place half of your own terrain, planning that some/most terrain will work for you is actually not a horrible strategy. Also, if you need to use terrain to your advantage, you do so. If there is a building, I will use it... if there isn't I will use a tree on the other side of the map. There are many options, as I stated... and I will use the ones I need. Again, you are pulling a quote out of context with the paragraph that explains why I recommend a certain option.

spycer wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:
If I go first, i would spread out my army as much as possible... keeping in cover or tops of buildings. If you split your forces to chase me, I would burn down anything that would die fast (after the Koptas), and then spend the rest of the game kiting your army around the map... I have the range to shoot you with 1/2 my force, while the other half runs from you. With orders, I can almost ensure that I will be able to move a full 12" every turn. Without Ghazskull, or transports, you can't.

Also you need to note that 2/3 of the games you can play are OBJECTIVE based... and an army of footsloggers that have to run across the map... and still somehow stay on the objectives... is not going to work.

False. He will get to place either half or half -1 of the objectives, which he can easily place on YOUR half of the board, aka 'where we are walking TO'. Works regularly, in my experiance.

You can also have half +1. But, if you place your half of the terrain on my side... then I'll place mine in between your side and mine, so you have to slog through it... which works well in my experience. Not to mention the fact if you make a part of the map completely useless to work in... I will just roll for the other side of the map, and/or will set up on a part of my side that is suited to what I need to do. ALSO, through orders, cover and running will rarely slow me down as much you are implying... and they will almost certainly slow the ork player down more than me... unless you bring something like transports or Grazskull... which was my point. Which you took out of context and ignored.

spycer wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:
You need to get some sort of cheap option that you can use to leave on points... hopefully that isn't useless. Think grots, or shoota boyz.

That's all I've got for now, my Bio class is over.

Thoroughly useless and full of bad information. We already agreed on how the cover rules worked, and then you tried to argue from a similar point of view against no one, and then backed it up with inaccurate statements. Sad.

I admit the cover argument was wrong, but none of my advice for fighting IG with orks, or how I beat orks with IG was bad. Considering that you completely mistook and misquoted everything I said to that effect, I think you must have missed the points I was making.

REMINDER: The OP (me) gave up on this list. the cover info found here is worth reading, the rest of it is kinda scrap IMO because i am no longer thinking of running this list. My current list can be found in my link above.