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okay the vehicle rules state that during a movement phase a vehicle may spin/ pivot freely. How i have always played is you spin the vehicle toward its access point disembark the troops and then spin the vehicle back toward where its original facing was.

Apparently there are people that play differently.

How do you play it?

Do you spin the vehicle / such as a rhino then disembark then spin the rhino back?

or

Do you spin disembark and leave it.

RAW I dont even know it says pivoting is not moving so i dont know how people are playing it I have looked at some battle reports where people have done both.

Its moving as far as embarking and disembarking are concerned and that all that matters.

Well yes ; i am just talking about how people play it Ive always seen.

Wave serpent fly forward. next turn spin let out troops not move at all then spin back to face.

Page 67 first and second bullet points

"If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but may not move any further....Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot). After disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault"

So you are able to:

-Disembark before pivoting and both the vehicle and unit inside may still move up to their full distance and fire if able (counting as moved) and assault.
-You may pivot then disembark and then neither the vehicle nor unit may move anymore. The unit can fire and will count as having moved, but cannot assault. The vehicle may fire counting as having not moved. The vehicle cannot pivot back.

Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

Not trying to sound like a jerk or anything but....

If you are playing that way then you are not playing by the rules. You are certainly free to continue playing that way assuming your opponent is ok with it, but that is not how the game is officially played.

Correct, if you play it that way and your gaming group is ok with it then more power to ya. As per rules though if you pivot it's a move, so after disembarking or embarking you can't move further.

think of it this way:
Pivoting = A move

If Pivot, disembark, Pivot was to be legal then Move 6", Disembark, Move 6" behind cover would be. I think a few people would have issues with that lol.

Also why have access points if you could pivot freely without consequence?

Hollismason wrote:Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

The rules specifically outline pivoting in relation to disembarking. As do most rules involving vehicle movement, since pivoting alone doesn't 'count as moving'.

The only hazy spot I can think of that doesn't mention it is Stunned, and iirc RAW you can pivot all you please then (despite most people I've seen playing otherwise).

Disembarking is clear, though, and the action proposed by the OP breaks the rules.

Ya, there is a guy at mu local store that does this, I've been letting him do it because I've never considered it a big deal, but the more i think about it he does do things like this a lot. He often pivots in the shooting phase, and does a few things and the like.

Its annoying but i usually try not to mention it because we usually are having fun at the time.

And the consequence of moving up and pivoting, then disembarking troops out so they are a few inches closer to the enemy is that the vehicle's rear armor is now facing the enemy. but thats the price you pay for getting your troops 4-6 inches closer.

RAW is that once you pivot and disembark, the vehicle and unit may no longer move, including pivots by the vehicle.

Or look at it this way if it makes it clearer....If a vehicle pivots, then the troops get out, then you pivot again, you are also breaking the first basic rule of unit turns in 40k. You do all of the action (in whatever phase you are in) before moving on to the next unit. By pivoting the vehicle, then the troops disembarking, then the vehicle pivoting again....you are in essence "moving" the vehicle, then "moving" the troops, then "moving" the vehicle a second time in the same turn.

~Bart

Move -> Disembark -> Pivot = making all vehicles "open-topped" for disembarking without any negative effects.

If you want to disembark out the front of your transport towards the enemy to maximize assault distance, then you expose your rear or side armor... If you can pivot back after disembark, then why wouldn't you?

nkelsch wrote:Move -> Disembark -> Pivot = making all vehicles "open-topped" for disembarking without any negative effects.

If you want to disembark out the front of your transport towards the enemy to maximize assault distance, then you expose your rear or side armor... If you can pivot back after disembark, then why wouldn't you?

Well, I don't do this for a number of reasons..first, because the BRB specifies that you can't, and second...because by definition, breaking the rules is cheating. Now I know dropping the "C" bomb is a bold step, and if the people in the OP's gaming group want to allow it as a house rule then thats their perogative to do so, but it would be nothing more than a house rule. Try that little tactic in the vast majority of other gameing groups however and he would be laughed off the table.

~Bart

@Hollismason - I agree with the other posters that the vehicle cannot pivot after the passengers disembark.

See BRB page 67 first bullet point under disembarking.

Hollismason wrote:Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

And the rules say you shouldn't be doing that.

I don't think you can pivot in a way that puts the troops farther forward than would normally be allowed. I mean, if a vehicle moves 12", then pivots in a way that places the access point 14" forward to disembark, you've made an illegal move.

'round these parts, when someone is going to do that, we make them turn the vehicle first, then move it forward the distance they were going to move it. Then you don't get any 'free inches' off of it.

Seems the main question has been answered so how about a little Thread Hijacking?

I know a unit is forbidden from both disembarking (why is the word 'disembark' and not just 'debark' anyway? Hmm) and embarking during the same movement phase - i.e. you cannot get out of a Chimera, move 6" and then get into a Land Raider - but is there a rule that forbids a unit from disembarking and a second unit embarking into the transport they just vacated?

Ex) My CCS's Chimera was destroyed last turn. A second Chimera with meltavets is already within 4" of the wrecked vehicle. The meltavets disembark and move 6" into melta range of an enemy vehicle. The CCS moves within 2" of the Chimera's hatch and they embark. The Chimera then moves 6", the CCS orders the meltavets to Bring It Down, and the CCS fires on a second enemy vehicle in the shooting phase.

Is this legal or have I missed something vital in the BRB? Thanks!

DoW




Automatically Appended Next Post:

RxGhost wrote:I don't think you can pivot in a way that puts the troops farther forward than would normally be allowed. I mean, if a vehicle moves 12", then pivots in a way that places the access point 14" forward to disembark, you've made an illegal move.

'round these parts, when someone is going to do that, we make them turn the vehicle first, then move it forward the distance they were going to move it. Then you don't get any 'free inches' off of it.

I know the answer to this one, at least:

Pg.57 BRB: "Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling around."

Basically, as long as the vehicle hasn't moved a total of more than 12" (or its maximum move, whichever is less), you can pivot it such that it faces any direction and disembark accordingly. Moving 12" and pointing my Chimera's rear towards the enemy gives me a great deal more range on my meltas, but you've also got a tasty AV10 target right next to some T3 models. Fair trade.

DoW

RxGhost wrote:I don't think you can pivot in a way that puts the troops farther forward than would normally be allowed. I mean, if a vehicle moves 12", then pivots in a way that places the access point 14" forward to disembark, you've made an illegal move.

'round these parts, when someone is going to do that, we make them turn the vehicle first, then move it forward the distance they were going to move it. Then you don't get any 'free inches' off of it.

Actually, you can do this. It is perfectly legal to move a Land Raider 12'' forwards, pivot slightly, and then disembark.

DoW, that's perfectly good. One unit out, another in. Go for it.

don_mondo wrote:DoW, that's perfectly good. One unit out, another in. Go for it.

Awesome. While it's somewhat situational, when you've got 6+ transports running around the board, it would be a handy trick to pull.

Much appreciated!

DoW

RxGhost wrote:I don't think you can pivot in a way that puts the troops farther forward than would normally be allowed. I mean, if a vehicle moves 12", then pivots in a way that places the access point 14" forward to disembark, you've made an illegal move.

Yes and no, really. It really depends on the shape of the vehicle.

If the access point is at the rear, then pivoting the vehicle won't get you extra distance, as the vehicle pivots on the centre point.

If you had a vehicle with access points on the side, which was wider than it is long, then moving 12" and then pivoting side-on would put the access point further forward than the vehicle could have actually moved.


It's really just the reverse of the old 'deploy your Raider sideways at the front of your deployment zone and then pivot before moving for extra movement distance' strategy... it shouldn't work that way, but it does, becuase the rules call for pivoting on the centre point.

Ok I just had to reply to this thread. Seriously, some of you scare me. And I mean to the point of never looking at YMDC ever again.

I had written a long post, it wasn't just an original flamepost, it was more like a flamestorm cannon post. But I backspaced it. I'll be diplomatic.

If you're going to use a unit, read up on its rules. How else are you going to use it? This particular rule isn't in my opinion open to debate. You can't misunderstand it if you read it. If you want to make a houserule to change it, fine by me, go right ahead. But missing something this fundamental... that's what scares me.

Frankly I'm stumped on what else to write.

Johnno wrote: But missing something this fundamental... that's what scares me.

But that's pretty much exactly what this forum (and other similar forums) are for.

Just because an issue seems clear to you doesn't mean that someone else somewhere hasn't misunderstood it. I think everyone who is in this hobby for any length of time (particulary through edition changes) sooner or later finds a rule that, despite being ridiculously clear in the rulebook, they've been playing wrong.

Generally, someone asking about a rule like that isn't trying to convince everyone else that their way is right. They're often just trying to confirm to themselves that the way they've been doing it is wrong.

And for some, reading just isn't a strong suit. So asking for confirmation in other words can be a big help.

Not saying either of those are the basis of this particular thread. Just asking for a little tolerance.

insaniak wrote:
But that's pretty much exactly what this forum (and other similar forums) are for.

Just because an issue seems clear to you doesn't mean that someone else somewhere hasn't misunderstood it. I think everyone who is in this hobby for any length of time (particulary through edition changes) sooner or later finds a rule that, despite being ridiculously clear in the rulebook, they've been playing wrong.

Generally, someone asking about a rule like that isn't trying to convince everyone else that their way is right. They're often just trying to confirm to themselves that the way they've been doing it is wrong.

And for some, reading just isn't a strong suit. So asking for confirmation in other words can be a big help.

Not saying either of those are the basis of this particular thread. Just asking for a little tolerance.

I'll agree, but I see a lot of posts go by that probably shouldn't exist. A lot of rules are cleverly hidden in a different section from where you'd expect, confusing, or open to interpretation... but most aren't.
The answer to the question defined by the OP is very clearly defined right in the rules for transports in the disembarking section.
p67:
'Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot).'

Gorkamorka wrote:I'll agree, but I see a lot of posts go by that probably shouldn't exist. A lot of rules are cleverly hidden in a different section from where you'd expect, confusing, or open to interpretation... but most aren't.
The answer to the question defined by the OP is very clearly defined right in the rules for transports in the disembarking section.
p67:
'Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot).'

It's fairly commonplace for people to read what the want to read and not what is actually on the page. It's not because they're bad people, or poor readers, but rather that it's a psychological tendency on the part of the brain to make its own connections and form opinions as you read each word and not after you're finished with the sentence (It's actually very interesting if you're into that sort of stuff). Obviously some people are naturally more meticulous readers but I don't think it's not worth getting worked up about the people that aren't.

Quite frankly, if everyone read their rulebook exactingly and never had any rules issues unless it was a legitimate ambiguity or rules error on GW's part, I think YMDC would be a pretty dull forum.

To each their own.

DoW

um, don't the rules say that you're only allowed to move a unit once? and when done you officially move onto another unit? if you're disembarking after moving a vehicle, you've moved onto another unit and shouldn't be able to go back and move/pivot again.

Right, but the rules also have that confusing statement about pivoting not counting as movement. Now, that's really only true for the purposes of counting distance covered and for counting how many weapons can fire, but that statement has confused a lot of people.

Mannahnin wrote:Right, but the rules also have that confusing statement about pivoting not counting as movement. Now, that's really only true for the purposes of counting distance covered and for counting how many weapons can fire, but that statement has confused a lot of people.

No... it actually doesn't count as moving if all you're doing is just pivoting on the spot (of course, you have to do so while the unit is selected in the movement phase). It's not just true for a few special cases, it's the general rule that it doesn't count as moving at all.
Which is why pivoting is specifically and separately mentioned in almost all the rules related to vehicle movement, such as in the immobilized damage result or the disembarking section.
And why you can pivot while stunned.

I'd still say that pivoting is a part of your vehicle's movement sequence, you're free to pivot as much as you like when you move, but if you only pivot you count as stationary. You still do it in your movement phase and you do it while having selected the vehicle in question. You don't go back to pivot a vehicle a second time after moving another unit inbetween. Nor do you pivot in the shooting phase, or walkers wouldn't have a rule specifying that their pivoting in the shooting phase is because of their increased agility.

If you start down the rocky slope of choosing that pivoting alone is not movement, and can be done whenever and multiple times even though you've moved other units inbetween, what's to say you can't pivot in your opponent's shooting phase, as clearly it's not movement and doesn't have to be done in your own movement phase? I'd like to see the look on my opponent's face when they tell me they can pivot in their shooting phase, or several times in their movement phase after moving other units inbetween, I just say sure, until their shooting phase when I start pivoting all my vehicles to have their strongest armor face whatever he's shooting at them.

"Oh, you're firing at my vindicator with your heavy bolters? Hold on just pivoting a bit. There, you can't harm me. Oh ok, you want to use that other unit now behind my vindicator? Here goes *pivots tank*... done. Go ahead and fire."

Priceless.

Johnno wrote:I'd still say that pivoting is a part of your vehicle's movement sequence, you're free to pivot as much as you like when you move, but if you only pivot you count as stationary. You still do it in your movement phase and you do it while having selected the vehicle in question. You don't go back to pivot a vehicle a second time after moving another unit inbetween. Nor do you pivot in the shooting phase, or walkers wouldn't have a rule specifying that their pivoting in the shooting phase is because of their increased agility.

Yep.

Johnno wrote:
If you start down the rocky slope of choosing that pivoting alone is not movement, and can be done whenever and multiple times even though you've moved other units inbetween, what's to say you can't pivot in your opponent's shooting phase, as clearly it's not movement and doesn't have to be done in your own movement phase? I'd like to see the look on my opponent's face when they tell me they can pivot in their shooting phase, or several times in their movement phase after moving other units inbetween, I just say sure, until their shooting phase when I start pivoting all my vehicles to have their strongest armor face whatever he's shooting at them.

"Oh, you're firing at my vindicator with your heavy bolters? Hold on just pivoting a bit. There, you can't harm me. Oh ok, you want to use that other unit now behind my vindicator? Here goes *pivots tank*... done. Go ahead and fire."

Priceless.

...the pivoting rules, which say it only doesn't count in the movement phase?

well think about the huge boost this would give most armies if this was true... as it is now, if you play an assault army, and want to get your maximum charge distance out of a transport, you have to expose a door to the side of the transport closest to an enemy for one turn of shooting... normally this is the lightly armored rear of your transport.

If you could just pivot then disembark, you'd be nowhere near as vulnerable, because you could just leave your front showing the enemy.

whenever you have a rules question, think, does this allow me to do anything that gives me a freaking huge advantage? If it does, re-read everything involving it very carefully.