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Arguing? I am not.
I am pointing out relations to movement rules, for example page 11, "Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one". Movement is actions taken in the movement phase, including pivoting and remaining stationary.
Some people were questioning that pivot may be debatably valid at times other than when movement is allowed.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Tri wrote:Stunned stops the tank from moving. Pivoting happens while the tank is moving. If you cannot move you cannot pivot.

No, pivoting on the spot alone is done while the vehicle is selected for movement and does not count as moving at all. No action involved is moving.

? really?

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model.

Is there any other time you are allowed to turn a vehicle? No. So you must be able to move to be able to turn.

I am also curious as to why you should be able to select a unit for movement if that unit is disallowed from movement.

Tri wrote:
Is there any other time you are allowed to turn a vehicle? No. So you must be able to move to be able to turn.

Read the rules, and my posts.

Vehicles that are moving turn by pivoting. Yes.
Vehicles can also just pivot on the spot and not count as moving at all. With no caveats, not counting as moving is the same as not moving as far as any rules are concerned.
Pivoting alone does not require the vehicle be moving or count as moving in any way.

That's what the rules say, and the distinction between a vehicles ability to turn any number of times while moving by pivoting and simply pivoting on the spot alone is clear if you read the paragraph rather than just quoting the first sentence.

willydstyle wrote:
I am also curious as to why you should be able to select a unit for movement if that unit is disallowed from movement.

Because the rules do not say that a unit that is unable to move cannot be selected in the movement phase. You can select such units just as you would any other, and they perform entirely normally other than the fact that they cannot actually move.

willydstyle wrote:I am also curious as to why you should be able to select a unit for movement if that unit is disallowed from movement.

I'd say just so you can fire your smoke launchers. You select the vehicle, can't move it, say it's finished moving, then smoke it.

Gorkamorka Pivoting doesn't count as moving but to pivot you must be able to move as it happens while you are moving.

Move 0" pivot 90* = not moving.

turning only happens when the vehicle moves even if that move is zero inches.

Tri wrote:Gorkamorka Pivoting doesn't count as moving but to pivot you must be able to move as it happens while you are moving.

Move 0" pivot 90* = not moving.

turning only happens when the vehicle moves even if that move is zero inches.

Yes, 'turning' does. Pivoting alone on the spot does not.
The rules do not say that pivoting on the spot alone must follow or be included in an action that counts as moving. It states that vehicles that ARE moving CAN turn any number of times by pivoting that 'does not reduce the vehicles move'. This is separate from a vehicle pivoting on the spot 'alone', without performing other actions, which does not count as moving at all and leaves the vehicle stationary. The only action you perform when pivoting on the spot is pivoting on the spot, not a mysterious 0" movement first.
It's not that complicated.

Gorkamorka,
What the rules spell out is the following:
1. A vehicle may turn while moving.
2. When a vehicle turns it does so by pivoting.
3. If a vehicle pivots on the spot, then various other things are true.

None of those statements give a vehicle permission to pivot on the spot, or turn in any other way, during the movement phase outside of the vehicle's movement.

solkan wrote:Gorkamorka,
What the rules spell out is the following:
1. A vehicle may turn while moving.
2. When a vehicle turns it does so by pivoting.
3. If a vehicle pivots on the spot, then various other things are true.

None of those statements give a vehicle permission to pivot on the spot, or turn in any other way, during the movement phase outside of the vehicle's movement.

On the other hand, following this order of logic also means that a stunned or immobilized vehicle could not fire smoke launchers, as this action is done "after the vehicle moves."

solkan wrote:Gorkamorka,
What the rules spell out is the following:
1. A vehicle may turn while moving.
2. When a vehicle turns it does so by pivoting.
3. If a vehicle pivots on the spot, then various other things are true.

None of those statements give a vehicle permission to pivot on the spot, or turn in any other way, during the movement phase outside of the vehicle's movement.

The rules say:
A vehicle may turn while moving. It compares these turns to those made by any other model while moving, and says that 'they do not reduce the vehicles move'. All turning uses pivoting, but it does not define all pivoting as turning.
The rules then go on to say:
Pivoting on the spot alone (that is, by itself, without performing other actions such as moving to indicate that you are turning and not just pivoting on the spot) does not count as moving. This definition is separate from that for turning, which also uses 'pivoting' but is performed under different conditions and has different results.

Pivoting on the spot alone does not necessitate the vehicle declaring a 0" move, or make the vehicle count as moving. The rules just don't say that.
Being unable to 'move' does not prevent you from taking actions that do not count as moving when a vehicle is selected for 'movement'.

Gorkamorka wrote:
Pivoting on the spot alone does not necessitate the vehicle declaring a 0" move, or make the vehicle count as moving. The rules just don't say that.
Being unable to 'move' does not prevent you from taking actions that do not count as moving when a vehicle is selected for 'movement'.

Being unable to move DOES prevent a model from taking actions which occur while the model IS MOVING because the vehicle can't move.

Except, of course, smoke launcher rules give explicit permission to use them while stunned or shaken, overriding the "must be able to move" restriction some of you want to impose.
So a vehicle does not have to be able to move to pop smoke.
However, as myself and others have stated, a vehicle does have to be able to move to pivot, as pivot is merely turning during your move, even if that move is 0". Or do you see vehicles pivoting described/stated somewhere else in the rules........??

don_mondo wrote:overriding the "must be able to move" restriction some of you want to impose.
So a vehicle does not have to be able to move to pop smoke.

I see no reference to immobilization.

Yep, it's not included in the smoke rules. All I can post is what is included.

Ridcully wrote:

don_mondo wrote:overriding the "must be able to move" restriction some of you want to impose.
So a vehicle does not have to be able to move to pop smoke.

I see no reference to immobilization.

You do realize you're arguing against yourself, right?

You're now saying that an immobilized vehicle must be able to move to use smoke, therefore it may not smoke. The same logic could be used to say that a stunned vehicle may not pivot (as the exception for being stunned does not exist for pivoting).

I haven't argued either way in this thread... seriously, just because i come in here and disagree with someone on one point doesn't mean i'm choosing a side. O.o

He claims a vehicle does not have to be able to move to pop smoke. This is a claim that an immobilized vehicle can pop smoke.