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Gorkamorka wrote:
...the pivoting rules, which say it only doesn't count in the movement phase?

My whole point was that If you've already defined that your interpretation of "does not count as moving" means that you can pivot several times in your movement and shooting phase, ignoring not being able to go back to a unit after you've finished moving it, nothing says I can't pivot in my opponent's turn. But that relies solely on the fact that it's not movement and doesn't follow normal movement rules (ie only done in movement phase, only done during the units own movement sequence).

I think the pivoting rule could have been worded a lot better, then again, there will always be confusion even over the simplest things.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Right, but the rules also have that confusing statement about pivoting not counting as movement. Now, that's really only true for the purposes of counting distance covered and for counting how many weapons can fire, but that statement has confused a lot of people.

No... it actually doesn't count as moving if all you're doing is just pivoting on the spot (of course, you have to do so while the unit is selected in the movement phase). It's not just true for a few special cases, it's the general rule that it doesn't count as moving at all.
Which is why pivoting is specifically and separately mentioned in almost all the rules related to vehicle movement, such as in the immobilized damage result or the disembarking section.
And why you can pivot while stunned.

Actually, you can't pivot while stunned. You said yourself that you can only pivot while the vehicle is selected for movement, which is absolutely not possible for a vehicle that is unable to move.

Why is this thread still going. Regardless of if you count pivoting as movement or not. The rules specifically state that you cannot pivot after disembarking troops. Thread over.

Axyl wrote:Why is this thread still going. Regardless of if you count pivoting as movement or not. The rules specifically state that you cannot pivot after disembarking troops. Thread over.

Wasn't aware you'd been promoted to Mod status, Axyl.

Feel free to lock the thread whenever you'd like.

DoW

thebetter1 wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Right, but the rules also have that confusing statement about pivoting not counting as movement. Now, that's really only true for the purposes of counting distance covered and for counting how many weapons can fire, but that statement has confused a lot of people.

No... it actually doesn't count as moving if all you're doing is just pivoting on the spot (of course, you have to do so while the unit is selected in the movement phase). It's not just true for a few special cases, it's the general rule that it doesn't count as moving at all.
Which is why pivoting is specifically and separately mentioned in almost all the rules related to vehicle movement, such as in the immobilized damage result or the disembarking section.
And why you can pivot while stunned.

Actually, you can't pivot while stunned. You said yourself that you can only pivot while the vehicle is selected for movement, which is absolutely not possible for a vehicle that is unable to move.

Do you have a reference for that? I don't see being able to actually make a movement as a requirement for being chosen 'to move' or otherwise acting in the phase.
The rules just say the unit 'completes all of it's movement' (which can be zero, if I'm reading it right) then you select another unit to move.
Being unable to 'move' doesn't prevent you from otherwise performing normally or taking actions other than those counted as movement in the movement phase.
offtopic awaaaay.

The thread it getting offtopic, but he has a point. There is nothing that states a vehicle can not pivot if stunned. Stunned = may not move nor shoot, but the vehicle mvement section specifically states that pivoting alone is not counted as movement.... why? Well, that is GM for ya. It does state that you can't pivot if Immobilized though.

It says it doesn't count as moving for the purposes of shooting. For everything else, it does. For example, it states that you count as moving if you pivot, then disembark [units that disembark from a vehicle that pivots cannot move or assault that turn. You have to get out of a vehicle that hasn't moved whatsoever].

Spellbound wrote:It says it doesn't count as moving for the purposes of shooting. For everything else, it does. For example, it states that you count as moving if you pivot, then disembark [units that disembark from a vehicle that pivots cannot move or assault that turn. You have to get out of a vehicle that hasn't moved whatsoever].

No... it says it doesn't count at moving at all, for anything.
The pivoting in relation to disembarking you're referencing is an additional caveat specifically from the disembarking rules.

But it's a situation that shows that where units that disembark before moving can assault, units that disembark after pivoting cannot - thus, pivoting is movement. It doesn't count for anything, but it's moving.

Essentially you're saying that because you can move without counting as moving, you're allowed to move when something says you can't move.

End result? It's moving. It's moving that doesn't count as moving, but when you can't move, you can't move - even if it doesn't count as you having done so.

Spellbound wrote:But it's a situation that shows that where units that disembark before moving can assault, units that disembark after pivoting cannot - thus, pivoting is movement. It doesn't count for anything, but it's moving.

No... it doesn't count as moving. Period.
It doesn't matter what other rules modify, those rules are specific to their particular situations.
The disembarking rules include pivoting on the spot separately and specifically because it isn't covered under the 'moving' umbrella, because the pivoting rules say it doesn't count as moving and in fact counts as the vehicle remaining stationary.

Spellbound wrote:
Essentially you're saying that because you can move without counting as moving, you're allowed to move when something says you can't move.

End result? It's moving. It's moving that doesn't count as moving, but when you can't move, you can't move - even if it doesn't count as you having done so.

No.
Performing an action that does not count as moving is the same as not moving as far as rules involving limiting movement are concerned, unless the rules have specific caveats to the contrary.
Being unable to move is exactly the same as being unable to perform actions that count as what the rules define as movement. The fact that you think physically moving the model during a pivot should count doesn't matter, the rules say that it does not.

edit:
As an addition, the rules for stunned and immobilized to further prove the point:
Stunned:"The vehicle may not move nor shoot until the end of its next player turn."
Immobilized:"The vehicle... may not move for the rest of the game. An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place..."

These rules are on the same page, in the very same table. Note that stunned does not specify that pivoting is prohibited, but immobilized felt the need to specifically call it out despite already prohibiting all movement.

Hollismason wrote:Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

woa woa woa that seems too..... convenient; I don't find that very legal.

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

woa woa woa that seems too..... convenient; I don't find that very legal.

That's because it's not. Your suspicions are correct!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

IronfrontAlex wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Always played able to pivot and then disembark. Then pivot back.

woa woa woa that seems too..... convenient; I don't find that very legal.

That's because it's not. Your suspicions are correct!

DoW

It's almost as though there's a whole page that clearly explained this, up to and including quoting the relevant rules...
Nah.

It's also almost as though the guy who posted his misconception with the rule stopped posting in this thread several days ago.

Oddly, the main rulebook does say that you pivot during your move..............

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting"

It then clarifies that if there is no other movement than pivoting, it doesn't count as moving, and altho not stated, we all know it means for purposes of shooting. It then further clarifies the OPs question regarding pivoting and disembarking.
Bottom line, to me, pivoting is movement based on the quote above and cannot be done unless the vehicle is capable of movement.

don_mondo wrote:and altho not stated, we all know it means for purposes of shooting

Are you suggesting that the clarification that pivoting alone "does not count as moving" is solely for the purposes of shooting?

Ridcully wrote:

don_mondo wrote:and altho not stated, we all know it means for purposes of shooting

Are you suggesting that the clarification that pivoting alone "does not count as moving" is solely for the purposes of shooting?

It doesn't count as moving. However you must be able to move to pivot as pivoting happens when a vehicle is being moved, even if that is a move of zero and counts as not moving. Can't move can't pivot.

Ridcully wrote:

don_mondo wrote:and altho not stated, we all know it means for purposes of shooting

Are you suggesting that the clarification that pivoting alone "does not count as moving" is solely for the purposes of shooting?

Yes indeedy I am. First, in the Vehicles and Movement section they say that you can only pivot when you move and mention the pivot not counting as movement.
Then in the Vehicles Shooting section they remind us:
"Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving)."
So yeah, I do indeed take that to mean that the pivoting does not count as moving is solely for the purposes of shooting.

Edit: And for assault, but since assault is based on actual distance moved, only pivoting wouldn't really have any affect there.
Edit againarn, didn't get the first edit in in time..............

They would also count as stationary for the purposes of close combat.

Willydstyle beat me to it. It applies to anywhere a vehicle's movement affects anything, except per the written exceptions (which are written).

Ridcully wrote:Willydstyle beat me to it. It applies to anywhere a vehicle's movement affects anything, except per the written exceptions (which are written).

But which are, admittedly, almost so common as not to be exceptions any more.

You've lost me. I'm referring to exceptions like disembarking.

Ridcully wrote:You've lost me. I'm referring to exceptions like disembarking.

I was thinking there was an exception for transported passengers firing out of fire points, but I'm wrong.

don_mondo wrote:Oddly, the main rulebook does say that you pivot during your move..............

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting"

It then clarifies that if there is no other movement than pivoting, it doesn't count as moving, and altho not stated, we all know it means for purposes of shooting. It then further clarifies the OPs question regarding pivoting and disembarking.
Bottom line, to me, pivoting is movement based on the quote above and cannot be done unless the vehicle is capable of movement.

Quote the whole rule... the one that makes a distinction between turning (which is done 'as they move' and 'does not reduce the vehicle's move') and pivoting on the spot alone (which 'does not count as moving', and in fact leaves the vehicle counting 'as stationary'). And that gives a vehicle only pivoting on the spot in the movement phase while counting as stationary and not moving as an example.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move,
just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on
the spot about their centre-point, rather than ‘wheeling’
round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move. This
means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse
movement in the same turn providing it does not
exceed its maximum move. Pivoting on the spot alone
does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots
in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however,
immobilized vehicles may not even pivot).

It says that a vehicle that is moving turns by pivoting, not that pivoting on the spot can only be done while moving or able to move. 'Does not count as moving' with no caveats is exactly the same as 'this isn't moving' as far as applicable rules are concerned.
Being unable to move does not disqualify you from being selected for moving in the movement phase or from performing any actions that do not count as movement.

Every applicable rule I can find includes a specific reference to pivoting, a reference which is unnecessary if pivoting on the spot is only not counted as movement for some purposes. As said before, stunned distinctly lacks such a reference, despite being right by a result in the same table that includes one.

don_mondo wrote:
First, in the Vehicles and Movement section they say that you can only pivot when you move and mention the pivot not counting as movement.
Then in the Vehicles Shooting section they remind us:
"Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving)."
So yeah, I do indeed take that to mean that the pivoting does not count as moving is solely for the purposes of shooting.

Just to add an arbitrary note from page 66:
"If the vehicle moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)."

Which (in addition to other lines) indicates that pivoting is movement, despite the vehicle counting as stationary after doing so.

kirsanth wrote:Just to add an arbitrary note from page 66:
"If the vehicle moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)."

Which (in addition to other lines) indicates that pivoting is movement, despite the vehicle counting as stationary after doing so.

An action illegal in any case, as the vehicle cannot be reselected to perform that action. And the pivot would follow movement and thus not be simply 'pivoting on the spot alone', but a turn. And I'll note again that it specifically mentions pivoting even after disallowing movement, despite your assertion that all pivoting always counts as movement (despite the rules saying that it does not).

Just to add an arbitrary note:
"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving" and on the next page "(remember that pivoting on the spot does
not count as moving)" and in the tank shocking section "Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving" and probably elsewhere. I think it's fairly clear that pivoting on the spot alone doesn't count as moving... and is not somehow a movement that doesn't count as moving only in specific cases that it neglected to outline or a movement that just ends counting as stationary.

Moving =/= movement -- especially in this case.
It is movement, and is described under the rules for such.

kirsanth wrote:Moving =/= movement -- especially in this case.
It is movement, and is described under the rules for such.

Great, so the stunned result ('may not move') has no effect on a units ability to be selected for 'movement', only actions that count as 'moving' (which the pivot specifically is not)?
I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

Gorkamorka wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Moving =/= movement -- especially in this case.
It is movement, and is described under the rules for such.

Great, so the stunned result ('may not move') has no effect on a units ability to be selected for 'movement', only actions that count as 'moving' (which the pivot specifically is not)?
I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

Stunned stops the tank from moving. Pivoting happens while the tank is moving. If you cannot move you cannot pivot.

Tri wrote:Stunned stops the tank from moving. Pivoting happens while the tank is moving. If you cannot move you cannot pivot.

No, pivoting on the spot alone is done while the vehicle is selected for movement and does not count as moving at all. No action involved is moving.

Read my post above, the rule says (vehicles turn while moving by pivoting) and (pivoting alone is not movement) separately. Pivoting alone does not require the vehicle be moving or count as moving.