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So I started reading the Grey Knights Omnibus yesterday and am appalled at the stupidity of the Imperium.
"Hey, look, it's a scary dude!"
"Gwar, I'm an Inquisitor. You gotta obay all my commands, right now."
"Okay, Mister Scary Dude!"
"Now, there are evil things coming. Chaos Marines! They are evil and nasty and they are called the Grey Knights. You gotta kill them. Right now."
"Okay, Mister Scary Dude!"

Now, I know that communications in the Imperium are nil. I know noone has heard of the Grey Knights. I know Inquisitors are supposed to be followed. But for crying out loud!! Noone questions this booger! There are frigging Sisters of Battle there! Can they not recognise fellow Inquisitorial soldiers? Everybody just latches on to the first thing someone tells them and follows it blindly until they are mutilated by daemons or killed off by the Powers That Be.
Does anyone else feel the same way?

This is no different then what we are doing right now , and have been doing for since our existance.

Grotzooka wrote:So I started reading the Grey Knights Omnibus yesterday and am appalled at the stupidity of the Imperium.
"Hey, look, it's a scary dude!"
"Gwar, I'm an Inquisitor. You gotta obay all my commands, right now."
"Okay, Mister Scary Dude!"
"Now, there are evil things coming. Chaos Marines! They are evil and nasty and they are called the Grey Knights. You gotta kill them. Right now."
"Okay, Mister Scary Dude!"

Now, I know that communications in the Imperium are nil. I know noone has heard of the Grey Knights. I know Inquisitors are supposed to be followed. But for crying out loud!! Noone questions this booger! There are frigging Sisters of Battle there! Can they not recognise fellow Inquisitorial soldiers? Everybody just latches on to the first thing someone tells them and follows it blindly until they are mutilated by daemons or killed off by the Powers That Be.
Does anyone else feel the same way?

Why would the Sisters of Battle know who the Grey Knights are?

Most of the Astartes don't know who the Grey Knights are, supposedly the High Lords of Terra(barring the Inquisition's representative at the High Lords) don't even know who they are.

Um...troll?

Also, Grey Knights are well known to purge the surrounding area after thier battles. (Armageddon = Prime Example) Both to cleanse demonic taint, and get rid of witnesses. Most likely these sisters would be finding themselves on the reveicing end of an incerator afterwards.

Why do people listen to Commissars? Becuase if you don't they BLAM! you.

Why do people REALLY listen to Inquisitors? Becuase if you don't, they torture THEN blam! or you.

BTW, I think the BL books relfect more on the GW authors than the game itself.

Why are people in 40K so STUPID?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Deny the outside influence!

Listen to the voice! The voice!

That particular instance was totally reasonable. Remember the Sisters ceased fighting once they got in close with the Knights. Once they were within spitting distance the cannoness recognized fellow inquisitional soldiers and halted the fighting.

Remember, you do what the guy with the Inquisitorial rosette tells you to or you die messily. Most Imperial citizens, even SoB's have never seen a Space Marine, much less a traitor one.

There's another example of stupidity in IA1 IIRC, where it took decades for some weapon mod to be allowed, yet a few pages away somebody else did a weapon mod during a battle and it was immediately accepted throughout the organization.

Seems process trumps practicality in many cases.

Tyyr wrote:That particular instance was totally reasonable. Remember the Sisters ceased fighting once they got in close with the Knights. Once they were within spitting distance the cannoness recognized fellow inquisitional soldiers and halted the fighting.

Still, it took the cannoness to stop the fighting. Plenty of SoB saw the Knights up close and personal and did nothing.

"Hey look! These guys are our allies!"
"What tipped you off? The Inqusition symbols all over us?"

Dal'yth Dude wrote:There's another example of stupidity in IA1 IIRC, where it took decades for some weapon mod to be allowed, yet a few pages away somebody else did a weapon mod during a battle and it was immediately accepted throughout the organization.

Seems process trumps practicality in many cases.

Are you implying that there are situations where process does not trump practicality? That sounds AWFUL heretical to me... hmm... I'm afraid, Mr. "Dude", that I'm going to have to ask you and Grotzooka to show up at the holy shriving chambers promptly at 1800 tonight for proper cleansing and rehabilitation. Emperor help us, we'll cleanse you of this taint yet.

Sisters are often deployed to deal with radical inquisitors and the like. Facing an opponent with an inquisitorial badge means little. It took the canoness to see they were free from taint. The others were just following orders.

Grotzooka wrote:Everybody just latches on to the first thing someone tells them and follows it blindly until they are mutilated by daemons or killed off by the Powers That Be.

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

This is due to one reason: the Imperium is corrupt and rife with fools.
Chaos is far more superior.

Good luck catching me daedalus. I'm safe. You should join me. The food's better and folks can think for themselves.

I'm not joining your greater weabod.

lordrevege wrote:This is due to one reason: the Imperium is corrupt and rife with fools.
Chaos is far more superior.

Except at grammar obviously

OMG...
that's why I don't play as Imperium.

corpsesarefun wrote:

lordrevege wrote:This is due to one reason: the Imperium is corrupt and rife with fools.
Chaos is far more superior.

Except at grammar obviously

As a famous linguist once said, "Grammar are what we makes it."

I agree with the TC. In pretty much every piece of 40k fiction involving Chaos, evil is allowed to come into power because of people making stupid decisions(or indecision).

Space Marines in particular seem to just follow blindly(Horus Heresy anyone?). Granted, they've been psycho-indoctrinated and such to a large degree, not to mention they're arguably maturity-stunted because of the early-age indoctrination process(hey, just saying). The fervor with which some characters obey and adore flawed leaders is just plain child-like(the HH novel authors do a nice job of portraying this).

Then there's the Ad Mech that, in its eternal quest for knowledge, always seems to ruin everyone's day when it comes to stories involving "heretek" discoveries and Necrons in particular.

"We must connect these power relays and re-awaken this dormant Tomb Spyder, dooming ourselves to a horrific slaughter...in pursuit of knowledge!"
"[[ function slaughter(target){ DESTROY; } ]]"
"..."


-_-

Ronin-Sage wrote:Then there's the Ad Mech that, in its eternal quest for knowledge, always seems to ruin everyone's day when it comes to stories involving "heretek" discoveries and Necrons in particular.

"We must connect these power relays and re-awaken this dormant Tomb Spyder, dooming ourselves to a horrific slaughter...in pursuit of knowledge!"
"[[ function slaughter(target){ DESTROY; } ]]"
"..."


-_-

Ronin, you have hit my other pet peeve square on the head.

Tyyr wrote:That particular instance was totally reasonable. Remember the Sisters ceased fighting once they got in close with the Knights. Once they were within spitting distance the cannoness recognized fellow inquisitional soldiers and halted the fighting.

Remember, you do what the guy with the Inquisitorial rosette tells you to or you die messily. Most Imperial citizens, even SoB's have never seen a Space Marine, much less a traitor one.

I agree one you don't question inqusition or else they point a finger at you and mono filiment comes out the tip and makes you inside mush ( like in the bl book empoers mercy) so you don't F&^K with the rosiete and also if they have seen marines they are most likley dead, insaine, traitoris, or "DEAD".

LunaHound wrote:This is no different then what we are doing right now , and have been doing for since our existance.

that's true...

It's because normal humans in the Imperium don't truly even know what really happens in the universe and don't even know what the Horus Heresy is anymore. Almost none know what a Space Marine is, much less have they seen one. They only deal with themselves, and only come into contact with the Marines if the PDF or local Guard Regiments have fallen.

But by then most of them are dead.

Actually, Marines are well known, but mostly as the stuff of legends, and few humans ever expect to see one. On some feral planets they are in fact worshipped as gods.

Grey Knights are a different matter, entirely. Even Marines don't know about these marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horus Heresy and such is also talked about, but more in a sort of biblical sense than as a piece of history.

Ronin-Sage wrote:I agree with the TC. In pretty much every piece of 40k fiction involving Chaos, evil is allowed to come into power because of people making stupid decisions(or indecision).

Space Marines in particular seem to just follow blindly(Horus Heresy anyone?). Granted, they've been psycho-indoctrinated and such to a large degree, not to mention they're arguably maturity-stunted because of the early-age indoctrination process(hey, just saying). The fervor with which some characters obey and adore flawed leaders is just plain child-like(the HH novel authors do a nice job of portraying this).

Then there's the Ad Mech that, in its eternal quest for knowledge, always seems to ruin everyone's day when it comes to stories involving "heretek" discoveries and Necrons in particular.

"We must connect these power relays and re-awaken this dormant Tomb Spyder, dooming ourselves to a horrific slaughter...in pursuit of knowledge!"
"[[ function slaughter(target){ DESTROY; } ]]"
"..."


-_-

The part you're forgetting is that I don't recall an instance of the AM reawakening Necrons when the person doing it actually knew what they were. Yes, we know it's a tomb spyder and its going to reduce everyone to chum but the person doing it doesn't. To the AM adept screwing around with it its just another piece of technology. Therefore in his eyes its a holy relic that must be reactivated and studied. Sure, it's not that bright but it's not the sign of a total idiot either. His religion is clouding his judgment... but welcome to the Imperium.

As for Chaos cults, it doesn't take that much to start one. Look at our world today and the number of cults and fringe religions that exist. Take a look at what the cults believe. It's totally believable that people would fall to Chaos cults. That people would flub up and not stamp them out instantly, totally believable. Think about it, most of the time local law enforcement is going to be swamped. They're not going to know all the particulars of a chaos cult. So maybe once in a while they mislabel a cult, instead of being a bunch of teens wearing plastic fangs, drinking red fruit punch, and staying up late it really is some kind of blood drinking chaos cult. Wouldn't be the first time a secretive group was totally misread. And if local law enforcement is swamped they might prioritize real cults or serial killers, or the riot in the underhive a little higher than rebellious teenagers, or at least what they think are rebellious teenagers. I don't recall anyone having evidence shoved in their face of a rampaging khornite cult rounding up and slaughtering hundreds and then blowing it off. Its almost always a case of a cult not being judged as dangerous as it really is or missing a connection or something. Not stupid, human.

As for the marines. In the HH at least all the marines are serving with their "fathers". Their primarchs are their leaders, fathers, and everything they aspire to be. The early HH books portray this very well that most Marines held their primarchs in the highest esteem, nothing they could do was wrong, and no honor could be higher than pleasing your primarch. They specifically spelled out early on that the Luna Wolves were far more loyal to Horus than anyone else. Given all that is it really them being stupid? It's not, its the way they've been trained, designed, indoctrinated, and everything in their environment points to that as well. Given perfect oversight and foreknowledge of what will happen it seems stupid, but when you put yourself in their shoes and their mindset and limit yourself to the knowledge they had its not so stupid.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, Marines are well known, but mostly as the stuff of legends, and few humans ever expect to see one. On some feral planets they are in fact worshipped as gods.

Grey Knights are a different matter, entirely. Even Marines don't know about these marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horus Heresy and such is also talked about, but more in a sort of biblical sense than as a piece of history.

Precisely. I never said they were unknown, just unseen. Most people go their entire lives without ever seeing one much less one in the flesh. The Brothers of the Snake books portrayed it well, on one fuedal planet they space marines were a myth and it had been almost seven centuries since even a single one had come to the world. Everyone knew about them but they put as much stock in the tales as we do in Cinderella. People also know, somewhat about chaos. Now if you know nothing about Space Marines and Chaos but fairy tales and a guy with a "Do as I say or die," card comes up to you and tells you evil marines are coming to eat your face what are you going to do?

It's also worth pointing out that while we have a hand dandy reference to give us details on which chapters are Imperium and which have fallen to chaos along with their heraldry, coloration, and practices, I don't think the rank and file of the Imperium do. And if someone told you a group like the Mortifacators or Flesh Tearers were chaos... would it be that hard to believe?

Tyyr wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:I agree with the TC. In pretty much every piece of 40k fiction involving Chaos, evil is allowed to come into power because of people making stupid decisions(or indecision).

Space Marines in particular seem to just follow blindly(Horus Heresy anyone?). Granted, they've been psycho-indoctrinated and such to a large degree, not to mention they're arguably maturity-stunted because of the early-age indoctrination process(hey, just saying). The fervor with which some characters obey and adore flawed leaders is just plain child-like(the HH novel authors do a nice job of portraying this).

Then there's the Ad Mech that, in its eternal quest for knowledge, always seems to ruin everyone's day when it comes to stories involving "heretek" discoveries and Necrons in particular.

"We must connect these power relays and re-awaken this dormant Tomb Spyder, dooming ourselves to a horrific slaughter...in pursuit of knowledge!"
"[[ function slaughter(target){ DESTROY; } ]]"
"..."


-_-

The part you're forgetting is that I don't recall an instance of the AM reawakening Necrons when the person doing it actually knew what they were. Yes, we know it's a tomb spyder and its going to reduce everyone to chum but the person doing it doesn't. To the AM adept screwing around with it its just another piece of technology. Therefore in his eyes its a holy relic that must be reactivated and studied. Sure, it's not that bright but it's not the sign of a total idiot either. His religion is clouding his judgment... but welcome to the Imperium.

As for Chaos cults, it doesn't take that much to start one. Look at our world today and the number of cults and fringe religions that exist. Take a look at what the cults believe. It's totally believable that people would fall to Chaos cults. That people would flub up and not stamp them out instantly, totally believable. Think about it, most of the time local law enforcement is going to be swamped. They're not going to know all the particulars of a chaos cult. So maybe once in a while they mislabel a cult, instead of being a bunch of teens wearing plastic fangs, drinking red fruit punch, and staying up late it really is some kind of blood drinking chaos cult. Wouldn't be the first time a secretive group was totally misread. And if local law enforcement is swamped they might prioritize real cults or serial killers, or the riot in the underhive a little higher than rebellious teenagers, or at least what they think are rebellious teenagers. I don't recall anyone having evidence shoved in their face of a rampaging khornite cult rounding up and slaughtering hundreds and then blowing it off. Its almost always a case of a cult not being judged as dangerous as it really is or missing a connection or something. Not stupid, human.

As for the marines. In the HH at least all the marines are serving with their "fathers". Their primarchs are their leaders, fathers, and everything they aspire to be. The early HH books portray this very well that most Marines held their primarchs in the highest esteem, nothing they could do was wrong, and no honor could be higher than pleasing your primarch. They specifically spelled out early on that the Luna Wolves were far more loyal to Horus than anyone else. Given all that is it really them being stupid? It's not, its the way they've been trained, designed, indoctrinated, and everything in their environment points to that as well. Given perfect oversight and foreknowledge of what will happen it seems stupid, but when you put yourself in their shoes and their mindset and limit yourself to the knowledge they had its not so stupid.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, Marines are well known, but mostly as the stuff of legends, and few humans ever expect to see one. On some feral planets they are in fact worshipped as gods.

Grey Knights are a different matter, entirely. Even Marines don't know about these marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horus Heresy and such is also talked about, but more in a sort of biblical sense than as a piece of history.

Precisely. I never said they were unknown, just unseen. Most people go their entire lives without ever seeing one much less one in the flesh. The Brothers of the Snake books portrayed it well, on one fuedal planet they space marines were a myth and it had been almost seven centuries since even a single one had come to the world. Everyone knew about them but they put as much stock in the tales as we do in Cinderella. People also know, somewhat about chaos. Now if you know nothing about Space Marines and Chaos but fairy tales and a guy with a "Do as I say or die," card comes up to you and tells you evil marines are coming to eat your face what are you going to do?

It's also worth pointing out that while we have a hand dandy reference to give us details on which chapters are Imperium and which have fallen to chaos along with their heraldry, coloration, and practices, I don't think the rank and file of the Imperium do. And if someone told you a group like the Mortifacators or Flesh Tearers were chaos... would it be that hard to believe?

My point is that it's always individuals making stupid, stupid decisions that bring about sometimes sector-wide devastation.

In regard to SMs, I noted as much, so I suppose we agree there(it's an issue of indoctrination and such).

In any case, I'm go to so far as to say that 40k stupidity is definitely present, perhaps rightfully so. There has to be dumb characters/decisions for drama to happen on that scale, anyway.

Tyyr wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:I agree with the TC. In pretty much every piece of 40k fiction involving Chaos, evil is allowed to come into power because of people making stupid decisions(or indecision).

Space Marines in particular seem to just follow blindly(Horus Heresy anyone?). Granted, they've been psycho-indoctrinated and such to a large degree, not to mention they're arguably maturity-stunted because of the early-age indoctrination process(hey, just saying). The fervor with which some characters obey and adore flawed leaders is just plain child-like(the HH novel authors do a nice job of portraying this).

Then there's the Ad Mech that, in its eternal quest for knowledge, always seems to ruin everyone's day when it comes to stories involving "heretek" discoveries and Necrons in particular.

"We must connect these power relays and re-awaken this dormant Tomb Spyder, dooming ourselves to a horrific slaughter...in pursuit of knowledge!"
"[[ function slaughter(target){ DESTROY; } ]]"
"..."


-_-

The part you're forgetting is that I don't recall an instance of the AM reawakening Necrons when the person doing it actually knew what they were. Yes, we know it's a tomb spyder and its going to reduce everyone to chum but the person doing it doesn't. To the AM adept screwing around with it its just another piece of technology. Therefore in his eyes its a holy relic that must be reactivated and studied. Sure, it's not that bright but it's not the sign of a total idiot either. His religion is clouding his judgment... but welcome to the Imperium.

As for Chaos cults, it doesn't take that much to start one. Look at our world today and the number of cults and fringe religions that exist. Take a look at what the cults believe. It's totally believable that people would fall to Chaos cults. That people would flub up and not stamp them out instantly, totally believable. Think about it, most of the time local law enforcement is going to be swamped. They're not going to know all the particulars of a chaos cult. So maybe once in a while they mislabel a cult, instead of being a bunch of teens wearing plastic fangs, drinking red fruit punch, and staying up late it really is some kind of blood drinking chaos cult. Wouldn't be the first time a secretive group was totally misread. And if local law enforcement is swamped they might prioritize real cults or serial killers, or the riot in the underhive a little higher than rebellious teenagers, or at least what they think are rebellious teenagers. I don't recall anyone having evidence shoved in their face of a rampaging khornite cult rounding up and slaughtering hundreds and then blowing it off. Its almost always a case of a cult not being judged as dangerous as it really is or missing a connection or something. Not stupid, human.

As for the marines. In the HH at least all the marines are serving with their "fathers". Their primarchs are their leaders, fathers, and everything they aspire to be. The early HH books portray this very well that most Marines held their primarchs in the highest esteem, nothing they could do was wrong, and no honor could be higher than pleasing your primarch. They specifically spelled out early on that the Luna Wolves were far more loyal to Horus than anyone else. Given all that is it really them being stupid? It's not, its the way they've been trained, designed, indoctrinated, and everything in their environment points to that as well. Given perfect oversight and foreknowledge of what will happen it seems stupid, but when you put yourself in their shoes and their mindset and limit yourself to the knowledge they had its not so stupid.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, Marines are well known, but mostly as the stuff of legends, and few humans ever expect to see one. On some feral planets they are in fact worshipped as gods.

Grey Knights are a different matter, entirely. Even Marines don't know about these marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horus Heresy and such is also talked about, but more in a sort of biblical sense than as a piece of history.

Precisely. I never said they were unknown, just unseen. Most people go their entire lives without ever seeing one much less one in the flesh. The Brothers of the Snake books portrayed it well, on one fuedal planet they space marines were a myth and it had been almost seven centuries since even a single one had come to the world. Everyone knew about them but they put as much stock in the tales as we do in Cinderella. People also know, somewhat about chaos. Now if you know nothing about Space Marines and Chaos but fairy tales and a guy with a "Do as I say or die," card comes up to you and tells you evil marines are coming to eat your face what are you going to do?

It's also worth pointing out that while we have a hand dandy reference to give us details on which chapters are Imperium and which have fallen to chaos along with their heraldry, coloration, and practices, I don't think the rank and file of the Imperium do. And if someone told you a group like the Mortifacators or Flesh Tearers were chaos... would it be that hard to believe?

My point is that it's always individuals making stupid, stupid decisions that bring about sometimes sector-wide devastation.

In regard to SMs, I noted as much, so I suppose we agree there(it's an issue of indoctrination and such).

In any case, I'll go to so far as to say that 40k stupidity is definitely present, perhaps rightfully so. It's a timeless technique used to incite conflict.

(sorry for double-post)

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

That studpity is the cause of planet being lost in the Imperium? That the high lords are making a mess of things? Well, when considering the IMMENSE size of the Imperium it's actually quite understandable. Things get missed, planets get forgotten, lost to the grinding Administratum.

Who needs logic? RAPE AND PILLAGE!

Shadowbrand wrote:Who needs logic? RAPE AND PILLAGE!

What he said, except... CLEANSE AND PURIFY!!!