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I am building a BT army, but I'm wondering, which is better, a Predator Annihilator with lascannon sponsons or a Vindicator?
I like the amount of firepower of the Predator, and esp. the two lascannons, but I also really like the Demolisher Cannon. I mean, a Str10, Ap2, Large Blast--what's not to love? And 2D6 for Armor Penetration--awesome!! However, it is short-ranged.
Anyway, just trying to get some tips from other gamers out there.

Vindicator would probably be better. Predator seems to be better off staying with the Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Autocannon.

24" isn't horrible range.
What are you going to be doing with them?

Predator: I've found these are kind of for generalists. These are a very "All your eggs in one basket" unit.

Vinidictor: Very feared for the Demolisher cannon. However, you need to make sure you can get it close to your opponent safely, as if you don't they will take a lot of fire. I run two Vindi's in my list and I always hide them behind my Rhinos (which I have 5 of). Works pretty well and scares the hell out of your opponent when you get judt too close for comfort.

Ahh double vindie lists are great just be sure when you run them be sure to double up on them or triple up. Too much fun watching your opp. scurry to be rid of them. Like Zack said pred. ann. are good but are specialized to take out tanks period. Where as with a vindie you can take out infantry and tanks. On a side note it isnt 2d6 arm. pen. but roll 2d6 and pick the highest.

go Predator with twin link las and bolter spons.... give you the option of killing tanks or infantry 130
and vindie is 125 so five points difference?? ' your choice Just remember about the scatter dice too to the vindie..

StarGate wrote: go Predator with twin link las and bolter spons.... give you the option of killing tanks or infantry 130
and vindie is 125 so five points difference?? ' your choice Just remember about the scatter dice too to the vindie..

I don't like that Predator set-up. Your heavy bolters can't effect anything higher than AV11 and your lascannon is overkill against the best targets for your heavy bolters. If you really want a predator that can do a little bit of everything in that point range, take an autocannon/las sponson predator for 120 points.

Vindi! They kill everything with the same armament. There is no wrong deployment with something that can always destroy what is shoots at.

Vindis are more scary than effective, preds are more effective than scary.

A vindi is a great distraction unit as it's too dangerous to be ignored even though it won't actually hit that much.

Preds aren't as threatening so stand a better chance of making it through the first few turns.

If you need extra firepower then take the pred - if you want good distraction unit then take the vindi.

As always YMMV - what's the rest of your army?

this is where I disagree and why I HATE preds:

So you have a Pred with las cannons and H bolter side sponsons. You move 6 in" to get LOS and now you have a choice to fire the Las canon OR one heavy bolter. big deal! Weapon destroyed occurs on one turn or another and whammy your heavy weapons slot turns into a single 100 pt heavy bolter. The point is vehicles should move every turn to avoid auto CC hits and usually have to to get LOS (unless your opponent is terrible of course)

Take the same circumstances and apply to a vindi. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS! Whether you move or not the vindi still gets its S10 AP 2 Large blast!

At BS4, I think this is a no-brainer.

I'd take a Vindicator, or better two of these beauties.
Vindicators can accompany your force and shoot their cannon in the same turn.
On the other hand, the Pred Annihilator has to stand still to be effective.

Vindicators are much more an "All your eggs in one basket" unit because they only have a single weapon. With a Predator - I usually lean towards AC + LC sponsons - your opponent will have to break three eggs, so to speak.

Double the range often enhances its resilience automatically. Not everyone fields railguns, not everyone can drop MeltaVets there.

Tanks, especially Marine tanks, and very especially Templar tanks do NOT need to move all the time. You WANT the opposition to come over to your place, not stay away forever, right? Let them come and try to assault that Pred (or Vindi, if it turns out that rocks your boat).

BT often lack AT, especially at range.
Your best option is usually a LC/ML tank-hunter dread or three.
If not, then look at the pred. The vindi's range will give you troubles.

I would go for 2x the dread build mentioned.

Beacuse of the vindicators mobility and the nature of it's gun it gets my vote. A template can be very useful against anything, it can be used to kill heavy vhehicles, light vehicles, elite troops, and hoard troops. It is versitile and as for the "egg analogy" it is not always bad to put them all in one basket, espesialy when that basket is covered in herdened ceremite, sports a demolisher cannon, and is crewed by power armoured super soldiers.

Vindicators are useful against troops, and Predator Annihilators are not, plain and simple.

The Vindicator is obviously far more versatile. In addition, you can use it for area denial. If you shield it with a Rhino or terrain, it's actually very survivable. You basically force your opponent to make choices. Either ignore its threat area and go somewhere else (like into a carefully planned killzone that you've selected for this purpose), or commit to one side, try to position firepower to destroy it, and hope that, come next turn, it isn't around to hit back.

40k boards are tiny, and 24" range isn't *that* bad.

A Predator, with 3 or 4 high str. low AP shots, isn't going to deny territory the same way as a Vindicator. It's more survivable, but its job isn't to survive. Its job is to deny territory and kill enemy units who venture into its threat area.

Scott-S6 wrote:Vindis are more scary than effective, preds are more effective than scary.

A vindi is a great distraction unit as it's too dangerous to be ignored even though it won't actually hit that much.

Preds aren't as threatening so stand a better chance of making it through the first few turns.

If you need extra firepower then take the pred - if you want good distraction unit then take the vindi.

As always YMMV - what's the rest of your army?

This is by far the best response in the thread IMO.

Vindicators have high damage potential, but are not reliable. With the prevalence of cover is has lost some of its effectiveness. It is, however, a scary thing due to its upward damage potential, and often causes tactical blunders as a result of over-reacting to it.

Against the lesser tactically savvy, the vindicator will be a powerhouse and dictate the battle.

AC/side las predators on the other hand are very unassuming. 2 lascannons and an autocannon is not that scary, but its an amazingly reliable transport opener.

This really goes into what list exactly you are building.

If you need a powerful threat to draw attention, the Vindicator is the way to go. IF you want reliable long range anti-AV, then the predator is the way to go.

They are tanks that fill very different roles on the battlefield.

In apoc games you start 12" from your enemy, so ange will not be a huge issiue, you will always have something to shoot at. I always laugh when I see the death strike missile's range, it is so unnessasary.

I often take ac/side las predators, and one of my regular CSM opponents likes to bring vindicators. The battle between the two tanks always seems to work in the predators favor due to the range.

That's beacuse that is exactly what the predator does, kills tanks, now see which can kill 10 space marines first.

The predator, cause it kills the vindicator and has all the time in the world to take out the 10 marines

But seriously. The questions Predator Annihilator or Vindicator is more a question of what role you list needs support in.

edit: Comparing apples to oranges and all that.

Vindicators need a specific list type to be effective due to soft side armor and becoming useless on a weapon destroyed result. If you are literally building a wall of rhinos to go rushing across the table, the Vindie does okay in such a list. In most other situations, the Pred or even Whirlwind are probably superior.

5th edition also hit the Vindicator with the nerf stick due to the preponderance of cover saves as opposed to 4th, while the Pred arguably got a little bit better due to increased chance of removing upgrade characters from squads with wound saturation (avg of about 4 wounds per shooting phase against T4).

I say Pred, BT can easily deal with infantry in CC.

Both are great tanks. The Vindi is something you take for fun, the Pred is more reliable because of its range.

I would probably take the pred.

And every army will have something you can shoot three BS4 Lascannons at.

Thanks for the tips, guys. I will post my prospective army list soon in the army list forum, but basically I have two crusader squads in Land raider crusaders, a marshal, emperor's champion, a predator annihilator, and two land speeder tornadoes. just trying to decide if i should include a vindi or a pred destructor with lascannon sponsons.

Consider this...

A vindicator only has 1 weapon, and a predator annihilator can get up to 3 penetrating hits...

For Anti-tank, get the predator.

A Predator also glances a LR on a 5. While the Vindi get's 2D6 armour penetration and it's AP2 template will make Terminators either use their invul save or get a cover save. The Predator can do it as well, but the maximum it can hit in one turn is 3, while the Vindi can possibly hit 4 or 5.

Pred is best against lightly armoured transports. Vindi is more balanced between hunting tanks and infantry and pays for it with it's range. It does only get to fire one weapon. But, I find that if the weapon is destroyed it becomes great for ramming and tank shocking because of the Siege Shield.

It depends on what you're running; Vindicators are scary as hell but short-ranged so make sure that the rest of your army won't leave them behind or out in the open before they can do any damage. If the rest of your army is also using assault and shorter-ranged weaponry the Vindicator is a great choice.