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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 00:14:48
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I am new to 40k, and have chosen SM. I have played a few battles but im seeking input on how to run some tac squads.
Basicly what i want to know is:
1) What is a good combination, heavy weapon assualt weapon, and sergeants weapons?
2) How would you deploy the squad (based on what you have put in them)?
3) What is their task?
And any other information or input you might have.
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Check out my painted armies at www.vortexwarning.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 01:00:58
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Lethal Lhamean
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...well. The answer to 2 and 3 very much depends on the answer to 1 as well as an answer to what the rest of your army is doing.
A very basic and conventional idea with equipping Tac squads is to take the weapons that are 'free' (like flamers, missile launchers, and heavy bolters). The usual agreement seems to be to put a Power Fist on the Sarge as it allows the squad to possibly deal with Walkers or Monstrous Creatures that assault them.
Your squad loadout can also vary quite a bit depending on what vehicle you are taking with them (if any) Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods all serve a different sort of role and call for a different sort of squad to be taken with them.
Also there is the major question of what the rest of your army is doing. Do you need more anti-tank? Maybe some drop pods with melta marines is a good idea, or missile launchers or lascannons on squads standing back on your board edge in terrain. Do you need anti-troop? Maybe a flamer in a tac squad in a rhino that can drive up to get them into rapid fire range.
The Tac Squad is very much a Swiss Army knife in the options it has available and there is no clear cut answer to what is "good" since it can vary from army build to army build. Hope some of that helps though.
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Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
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Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 01:17:50
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Killer Klaivex
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Well, for a Tac Squad's loadout, consider a plasma gun and multi-melta. Those two weapons have the same range and can both pop light vehicles/MCs so you don't have to worry too much about either of them going to waste.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 01:20:58
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The first thing to think about is what you the army does. This relationship between unit and army can be thought of as being governed by three principles:
1. Redundancy
2. Synergy
3. Flexibility (or 'complementarity')
Redundancy concerns how many things you have in an army that can accomplish the same task, and the same in a unit, and you want to balance the redundancy within units across the army: you may want to have four Tactical Squads armed with Plasma Cannons, or you may want one Devastator Squad armed with four Plasma Cannons. The former has considerable redundancy if you plan to use combat squads to set up a firebase of four short Troop squads rather than two short non-Troop squads.
Synergy concerns how units in the army enhance each other, and how models within units enhance each other. The comments that model the structure of redundancy again apply.
Flexibility concerns how broadly the army can act, as well as how broadly units can act: a list without anti-tank weapons is not a flexible list and will suffer according regardless of the player's skill against lists it cannot harm. Too much flexibility, however, and the list may lack sufficient redundancy to weather the game, or gain the benefits of synergistic unit configurations.
So stuff to remember about Tactical squads:
1. They're Troops, and only they can capture objectives.
2. They can use combat squads depending on the game, so configure them so that the entire squad is flexible, and the combat squads have synergy.
3. They are really about shooting. Use combat tactics to get them out of combat, and shoot shoot shoot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:04:11
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Tunneling Trygon
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Generally speaking, Tac squads are pretty feeble. They don't do anything particularly well, but they're above average all around. Their role in virtually any SM list is to hold objectives in objective missions, and not die in KP missions.
Combat Squads is very useful in this respect. In objective missions you virtually always want to split up. In KP missions you don't.
Virtually any weapon you purchase for them is going to be fine, so long as you use them as the weapon dictates...
For example, if you take a Lascannon and Plasma gun, combat squad them together, sit them on objectives and have them shoot at anything trying to come get it.
If you take a Melta or Flamer as your special weapon, it can work nicely to pair it with a Power Fist Sarge and send them out to get objectives. A Razorback is nice here as well.
So, basically, don't expect your Tacticals to run around kicking the crap out of the other guy. That's what your Sternguard, Landspeeders, Predators, etc. are for. They're there to hold objectives, and mop up after the other guys.
For example, if you're going to run some Sternguard up to a Carnifex and Poison Bolt it to death, you'd be glad if you have a Las/Plas Combat Squad nearby to kill off the Fex if you happen to roll badly, and he's standing there with a wound left. That one wound is the difference between the Sternguard moving on and killing more, and the whole squad getting crushed in CC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:09:23
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Well SM tac squads are arguably the most verstile unit in the game. They are good at pretty much everything. You have to understand what the different wargear is used for, and then consider what you want to use those squads for.
At the core, they are the gunline unit.
But they can really do anything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:13:54
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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When adding tac squads, a transport is mandatory.
Best special weapons are flamer and melta gun.
Any free heavy weapon is always good.
I would rarely take a plasma cannon or heavy bolter.
Las cannon is an option, but it's 20 pts.
Tac sgts should very rarely take combi-weapons and even more rarer take a power weapon or fist.
Keep 'em cheap.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:17:23
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Well i guess it would be really helpful if some one has a list of what weapons are best for, and what combinations of those weapons is best
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Check out my painted armies at www.vortexwarning.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:19:13
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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postazure wrote:Well i guess it would be really helpful if some one has a list of what weapons are best for, and what combinations of those weapons is best
It could depend on what and if any special characters you would plan to take.
Vulkan says that you should take melta and flamer weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:20:21
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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i plan on taking a chaplain for hq and a land raider assault terminator squad and building the army around that.
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Check out my painted armies at www.vortexwarning.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 04:44:19
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If you plan on taking a chappy, I recommend cassius.
Definitely worth the 25pts.
What point level?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 05:28:01
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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1750pts Automatically Appended Next Post: and why would you take cassius over a normal chap in term armor? (just curious)
I mean he has ld10 but not 2+ save, and he has a bolter but he would be with the assault terminators so that wouldnt really matter.
And the leadership shouldnt come into play unless ive lost combat in which case something has gone terribly terribly wrong.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/14 05:37:57
Check out my painted armies at www.vortexwarning.com |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 06:37:44
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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postazure wrote:1750pts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and why would you take cassius over a normal chap in term armor? (just curious)
I mean he has ld10 but not 2+ save, and he has a bolter but he would be with the assault terminators so that wouldnt really matter.
And the leadership shouldnt come into play unless ive lost combat in which case something has gone terribly terribly wrong.
He's tough to kill, for a 125 point character, despite the 3+/4++ save. He's T6 which is huge. S4 (most things) are wounding him on 6's, and a fist isn't going to instakill him.
If you're running a character with Assault Terminators, you either want it to be brutally offensive, or brutally defensive. For me it's either a Librarian w/ Avenger (brutally offesive, but no invul. makes him weak in the assault) or Cassius, who is a lot tougher to kill.
If, for some reason, the Terminators have to spend another turn in combat, you want some wound allocation going to the independent character, as they can get worn down very quickly by volume.
Some will disagree with me, but when it comes to Tactical Squads, I like to tool them out. Usually this means a Sgt. w/ powerfist and combi-melta or combi-flamer and a meltagun or flamer in the squad. Usually I just run a missile launcher but against bugs and things like that, I'll run a lascannon.
Personally I don't think that Multimeltas are worth it in Tactical Squads, given the fact that in objective games, you're probably going to be sitting on one objective and going after one or two more. In that case, I want that missile launcher shot every turn. Not because it's going to do much, but because the more enemy shooting at that Rhino means less enemy shooting at everything else. I'm fine with a shaken-stunned-weapon destroyed-immobilized Rhino as long as it's sitting where it needs to sit. But the ML or Lascannon make it a threat that needs to be dealt with.
The argument has been made that the points could be better spent elsewhere. Assuming I tool them out with PF, Combi-weapon, and meltagun, in a Rhino, plus the free ML, they're 240 points per squad. 250 with a lascannon.
That same squad, bare bones minimum, is going to cost you 205, so you're saving 35 points. At 1,500 points, I usually only run 2 Tactical Squads anyway so that's a net savings on 70 points. What am I going to buy for 70 points that gives me the same versatility, and the peace of mind in knowing that I'm not going to lose the game because something goofy turbo boosted next to my objective, or somehow managed to get there, and I don't have the tools to reliably destroy it. Most of the army is a long ways away at that point, so it's nice to have the tools to handle things like softened monstrous creatures, transports, etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/14 06:44:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 07:38:42
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Tac marines are pretty sub-standard... but remember you have other options when building a list.
you can take (as troops) -
bikers
tac marines
scouts
grey knights
sisters of battle
inquisitorial stormtroopers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 12:51:25
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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postazure wrote:I am new to 40k, and have chosen SM. I have played a few battles but im seeking input on how to run some tac squads.
Basicly what i want to know is:
1) What is a good combination, heavy weapon assualt weapon, and sergeants weapons?
2) How would you deploy the squad (based on what you have put in them)?
3) What is their task?
And any other information or input you might have.
1. PF+boltgun or combi weapon for sgt. Flamer + missile launcher with a rhino is my favorite tactical squad. This can do it all save anti-heavy AV pretty well.
2.Deploy in rhino. Deployment rules, terrain and opposition really matter for exactly how to deploy. In terms of general strategy the goal with the Rhino squad will be to fire its missile for a couple turns before roaring up to an objective and rapid firing (not unsupported obv). Its weak AV mean you need to try and give yourself cover from as much as you can while giving yourself a good target since you won't be able to move and fire. If you have to, you can always use your smoke first turn to get to a good spot.
3. Do some damage at range before getting to double tap or assault range. Take objectives from any target, be flexible in offensive capacities.
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Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 15:33:28
Subject: Re:Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Couple of different load outs to consider.
1) Objective Holders: 10 men, lascannon, missile launcher or plasmacannon for heavy, plasma gun for special, mech to taste. Primary mission is to hold home quarter objectives. Secondary mission is long range fire support.
2) Objective Takers: 10 men, one of the free heavy weapons, melta or flamer for special, powerfist/weapon on sarge and need to be meched. Primary mission is to take enemy objectives, secondary missions is to counter attack by FIRE. Can also provide some ranged fire in KP missions while waiting to strike.
3) Kill heavy infantry: Plasma cannon, plasma gun, Sarge with powerfist/weapon.
4) Kill heavy armor: Lascannon, meltagun, Sarge with combi-melta/melta bombs. Mech in Razorback. Combat squad down, las provides long range fire allowing melta to close.
Generally need to balance tac squads to fill roles not covered by your preferred support units. I generally run 4 full squads at 1750+ points but I seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 16:43:55
Subject: Re:Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I run 3 different squad types.
1) the horde exterminator: This squad is the cheapest of all the variants. it has a Flamer and either a Missile launcher or a Heavy bolter. I usually equip the sergeant with just a Chainsword and a bolt pistol, and if facing MEQs the sergent can have a power weapon. because This squad is cheap you can field more of them. This squad should always be combat squaded
2) The MEQ Bane, or Light Bearers: This squad can get expensive. A plasma gun for your special weapon and a plasma cannon if you can afford it. A particualaraly evil sergeant loadout is 2 plasma pistols. This squad can pump out 4 Str7 AP2 shots at a 12 inch range(2 from the Gun and 2 from the pistols) The cannon is also good at killing MEQs but its range and the fact that its a heavy weapon can hamper your effectivness. This squad is especially effective shooting out of a rhino. Unless you take the cannon don't combat squad. You will be facing opponents as difficult to kill as you are and will need numbers.
3) Melta madness: This squad is not too expensive. A melta-gun and a Multi-melta. the sergeant should have a power fist for sure. A plasma pistol is a good buy too. This squad can hunt MEQs with only a slight drop in effectivness from the MEQ bane. Combat squading is an ok thing. The multi-melta has a limited range and your squad is up close any way. IMO multi meltas are not effective infantry weapons. 12" melta range is too close for a heavy weapon to the action.
Combat squading is best when you have a Heavy weapon with a range of 36" or more, because other wise you are in effective range of all the other weapons you have.
Hope this helps
praise the Emperor and strike down his foes
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 16:46:34
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
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Models can't shoot two pistols.
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Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 16:48:45
Subject: Re:Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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where does the Rule book say that?
Saraphim have 2 bolt pistols, they count as twin-linked, But i figured that because the main rule book doesn't cover a model having two pistols the SMs would fire both seperatly.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/14 17:01:21
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
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Page 15 of the BRB/BGB:
Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon.
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Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 03:19:50
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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postazure wrote:1750pts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and why would you take cassius over a normal chap in term armor? (just curious)
I mean he has ld10 but not 2+ save, and he has a bolter but he would be with the assault terminators so that wouldnt really matter.
And the leadership shouldnt come into play unless ive lost combat in which case something has gone terribly terribly wrong.
Cassius is t6, with a master crafted combi-flamer, t6, 3+/4++ and FNP. 3+ with FNP is equal to a 2+ armor save as far as ignoring wounds without considering ap.
If you throw a regular chappy in term armor, he costs 5pts more and gets smashed with th/ pf. Also he is t4, 2+/4++ and no master crafted combi-flamer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 03:21:41
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
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Yeah... Cassius wrecks anything without a Relic Blade/PF. I love sending him off to solo Tau Suit Squads or groups of IG.
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Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 03:31:11
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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NuggzTheNinja wrote:postazure wrote:1750pts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and why would you take cassius over a normal chap in term armor? (just curious)
I mean he has ld10 but not 2+ save, and he has a bolter but he would be with the assault terminators so that wouldnt really matter.
And the leadership shouldnt come into play unless ive lost combat in which case something has gone terribly terribly wrong.
He's tough to kill, for a 125 point character, despite the 3+/4++ save. He's T6 which is huge. S4 (most things) are wounding him on 6's, and a fist isn't going to instakill him.
If you're running a character with Assault Terminators, you either want it to be brutally offensive, or brutally defensive. For me it's either a Librarian w/ Avenger (brutally offesive, but no invul. makes him weak in the assault) or Cassius, who is a lot tougher to kill.
If, for some reason, the Terminators have to spend another turn in combat, you want some wound allocation going to the independent character, as they can get worn down very quickly by volume.
Some will disagree with me, but when it comes to Tactical Squads, I like to tool them out. Usually this means a Sgt. w/ powerfist and combi-melta or combi-flamer and a meltagun or flamer in the squad. Usually I just run a missile launcher but against bugs and things like that, I'll run a lascannon.
Personally I don't think that Multimeltas are worth it in Tactical Squads, given the fact that in objective games, you're probably going to be sitting on one objective and going after one or two more. In that case, I want that missile launcher shot every turn. Not because it's going to do much, but because the more enemy shooting at that Rhino means less enemy shooting at everything else. I'm fine with a shaken-stunned-weapon destroyed-immobilized Rhino as long as it's sitting where it needs to sit. But the ML or Lascannon make it a threat that needs to be dealt with.
The argument has been made that the points could be better spent elsewhere. Assuming I tool them out with PF, Combi-weapon, and meltagun, in a Rhino, plus the free ML, they're 240 points per squad. 250 with a lascannon.
That same squad, bare bones minimum, is going to cost you 205, so you're saving 35 points. At 1,500 points, I usually only run 2 Tactical Squads anyway so that's a net savings on 70 points. What am I going to buy for 70 points that gives me the same versatility, and the peace of mind in knowing that I'm not going to lose the game because something goofy turbo boosted next to my objective, or somehow managed to get there, and I don't have the tools to reliably destroy it. Most of the army is a long ways away at that point, so it's nice to have the tools to handle things like softened monstrous creatures, transports, etc.
For 70pts you could add a mm/ hf speeder. You also forgot to add the 5pts for a melta gun. Also, if some armor comes turbo boosting up next to this squad, the free mm will have a better chance of destroying the armor that zoomed up.
And unless you plan on getting out of the rhino, which tac squads should not do, the power fist is useless.
Equipping one tac squad with a ml is no big deal at all. Equipping all your sgt's with combi weapons (without a special rule to take advantage of that) and pf's is simply a huge waste of points. You are making a 23pt, 1 wound, 3+ save model 58pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 03:47:15
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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imweasel wrote:NuggzTheNinja wrote:postazure wrote:1750pts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and why would you take cassius over a normal chap in term armor? (just curious)
I mean he has ld10 but not 2+ save, and he has a bolter but he would be with the assault terminators so that wouldnt really matter.
And the leadership shouldnt come into play unless ive lost combat in which case something has gone terribly terribly wrong.
He's tough to kill, for a 125 point character, despite the 3+/4++ save. He's T6 which is huge. S4 (most things) are wounding him on 6's, and a fist isn't going to instakill him.
If you're running a character with Assault Terminators, you either want it to be brutally offensive, or brutally defensive. For me it's either a Librarian w/ Avenger (brutally offesive, but no invul. makes him weak in the assault) or Cassius, who is a lot tougher to kill.
If, for some reason, the Terminators have to spend another turn in combat, you want some wound allocation going to the independent character, as they can get worn down very quickly by volume.
Some will disagree with me, but when it comes to Tactical Squads, I like to tool them out. Usually this means a Sgt. w/ powerfist and combi-melta or combi-flamer and a meltagun or flamer in the squad. Usually I just run a missile launcher but against bugs and things like that, I'll run a lascannon.
Personally I don't think that Multimeltas are worth it in Tactical Squads, given the fact that in objective games, you're probably going to be sitting on one objective and going after one or two more. In that case, I want that missile launcher shot every turn. Not because it's going to do much, but because the more enemy shooting at that Rhino means less enemy shooting at everything else. I'm fine with a shaken-stunned-weapon destroyed-immobilized Rhino as long as it's sitting where it needs to sit. But the ML or Lascannon make it a threat that needs to be dealt with.
The argument has been made that the points could be better spent elsewhere. Assuming I tool them out with PF, Combi-weapon, and meltagun, in a Rhino, plus the free ML, they're 240 points per squad. 250 with a lascannon.
That same squad, bare bones minimum, is going to cost you 205, so you're saving 35 points. At 1,500 points, I usually only run 2 Tactical Squads anyway so that's a net savings on 70 points. What am I going to buy for 70 points that gives me the same versatility, and the peace of mind in knowing that I'm not going to lose the game because something goofy turbo boosted next to my objective, or somehow managed to get there, and I don't have the tools to reliably destroy it. Most of the army is a long ways away at that point, so it's nice to have the tools to handle things like softened monstrous creatures, transports, etc.
For 70pts you could add a mm/ hf speeder. You also forgot to add the 5pts for a melta gun. Also, if some armor comes turbo boosting up next to this squad, the free mm will have a better chance of destroying the armor that zoomed up.
And unless you plan on getting out of the rhino, which tac squads should not do, the power fist is useless.
Equipping one tac squad with a ml is no big deal at all. Equipping all your sgt's with combi weapons (without a special rule to take advantage of that) and pf's is simply a huge waste of points. You are making a 23pt, 1 wound, 3+ save model 58pts.
If you run a meltagun and combi-weapon, they're 245. If you run a combi-melta and flamer, they're 240, which is how I prefer to run them.
A free multimelta means a max effective range of 24" while you're sitting on an objective. No thanks, I'll spend 5 points on a meltagun. If armor is a huge threat, I'll spend 15 for a combi-melta and meltagun. I've got the points to spare for a little insurance. It's not really 2 one-shot wonders. It's 2 twin-linked 1 shot wonders. (Vulkan)
That 25 point fist is a "hidden" powerfist: you can't single it out. That's what makes the points increase for a cheap sergeant worth it: you have to eat through 10 Tac Marines before you get it.
Also, unless you regularly play very poor players, they aren't going to let your Marines sit in that Rhino forever on the objective. Rhinos aren't exactly difficult to destroy. Outflanking warwalkers are a pretty good example. You really want to sit there and shoot it out with 3 scatterlaser armed warwalkers with 10 Tactical Marines? Hell no. Assault with krak grenades and the fist. The fist adds a lot against War Walkers in the assault, and it eats through MEQs. Even if you're running a multimelta and meltagun in the squad, that's a maximum of two of them that are going down. More than likely 3. I like my chances a lot more with 2 meltagun shots, then following it up with an assault to get rid of the threat.
In the 1,500 list I play, I'm already running 4 MM/ HF speeders. I don't need 5. I'd rather have versatility in my tactical squads.
What works for me may not work for you. I'm undefeated with that list in my location's league and won the league last weekend so it obviously works for me. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. We have a lot of MEQ players, so I know what works well against the types of lists I'm used to playing.
That's why people ask for advice. Different opinions.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/15 03:48:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 03:51:28
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
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I give about half my Sgts PFs and the other half bolters and meltabombs. The squads with PFs have a free weapon (either a MM or ML) and a Rhino. This allows me to keep them together if I think the hidden PF needs some extra wounds and I don't feel guilty about spending points on the heavy weapon. It also allows me to combat squad if I think the situation warrants it and send the PF/Flamer off in the Rhino. The bolters/MBs squads generally take Razorbacks and a PC/LC along with a MG. They almost always combat squad with the HW plinking away and the Sgt/MG in the Razorback hanging back to provide support and handle any last second objective grabs by vehicles (Nothing likes a MB death or glory or a MG in rear armor).
I'm not a fan of combi-weapons as they are one shot weapons. The only time I would use them is with Vulkan lists.
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Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/15 06:26:10
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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NuggzTheNinja wrote:If you run a meltagun and combi-weapon, they're 245. If you run a combi-melta and flamer, they're 240, which is how I prefer to run them.
A free multimelta means a max effective range of 24" while you're sitting on an objective. No thanks, I'll spend 5 points on a meltagun. If armor is a huge threat, I'll spend 15 for a combi-melta and meltagun. I've got the points to spare for a little insurance. It's not really 2 one-shot wonders. It's 2 twin-linked 1 shot wonders. (Vulkan)
That 25 point fist is a "hidden" powerfist: you can't single it out. That's what makes the points increase for a cheap sergeant worth it: you have to eat through 10 Tac Marines before you get it.
Also, unless you regularly play very poor players, they aren't going to let your Marines sit in that Rhino forever on the objective. Rhinos aren't exactly difficult to destroy. Outflanking warwalkers are a pretty good example. You really want to sit there and shoot it out with 3 scatterlaser armed warwalkers with 10 Tactical Marines? Hell no. Assault with krak grenades and the fist. The fist adds a lot against War Walkers in the assault, and it eats through MEQs. Even if you're running a multimelta and meltagun in the squad, that's a maximum of two of them that are going down. More than likely 3. I like my chances a lot more with 2 meltagun shots, then following it up with an assault to get rid of the threat.
In the 1,500 list I play, I'm already running 4 MM/HF speeders. I don't need 5. I'd rather have versatility in my tactical squads.
What works for me may not work for you. I'm undefeated with that list in my location's league and won the league last weekend so it obviously works for me. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. We have a lot of MEQ players, so I know what works well against the types of lists I'm used to playing.
That's why people ask for advice. Different opinions.
But most people are looking for opinions based on good advice.
If you use vulkan, combi-melta or flamer is a solid choice. However, pf's do not 'eat' through meq's. They kill one meq on average per assault phase. That's not 'eating' anything.
Assaulting tac marines? Really? And you wonder if I play regularly vs poor players?
All a power fist does (besides costing 25pts) is allow tac marines to go from bad assault units to kinda good/kinda bad assault units. I don't believe that vulkan lists are going to be worrying to much about eldar walkers.
I am aware that you cannot single out the sgt. However, taking a model that is iffy on cost from the get go and turning it into something that is 40+% more expensive than an assault terminator is not...cost effective.
By the way, I think you would be better off with that 5th speeder.
I am also not drawing this from a league, or the fact that I'm undefeated. I am drawing these conclusions from a ton of play testing. I used to be in the combi-weapons pf group. I then needed to start shaving points from lists to fit in other things. Slowly, I dropped the fists and combi-weapons. I can't say I have never missed them, but it's a rare occassion where they work out better than what I put in their place. Very rare.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 01:56:14
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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imweasel wrote:
But most people are looking for opinions based on good advice.
If you use vulkan, combi-melta or flamer is a solid choice. However, pf's do not 'eat' through meq's. They kill one meq on average per assault phase. That's not 'eating' anything.
Assaulting tac marines? Really? And you wonder if I play regularly vs poor players?
All a power fist does (besides costing 25pts) is allow tac marines to go from bad assault units to kinda good/kinda bad assault units. I don't believe that vulkan lists are going to be worrying to much about eldar walkers.
I am aware that you cannot single out the sgt. However, taking a model that is iffy on cost from the get go and turning it into something that is 40+% more expensive than an assault terminator is not...cost effective.
By the way, I think you would be better off with that 5th speeder.
I am also not drawing this from a league, or the fact that I'm undefeated. I am drawing these conclusions from a ton of play testing. I used to be in the combi-weapons pf group. I then needed to start shaving points from lists to fit in other things. Slowly, I dropped the fists and combi-weapons. I can't say I have never missed them, but it's a rare occassion where they work out better than what I put in their place. Very rare.
This post is a fine example of an instance in which you need to say, "agree to disagree".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 02:27:10
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
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Yeah... PFs seem to be a love or hate thing, and TBH, I think very meta specific. My meta is full of MCs, multi-wound T4 models, and walkers, so a few PFs scattered around actually do make a difference.
That and as a starting player, having the "insurance" of a PF is actually a decent thing. As you get more comfortable, you can remove the PF "training wheels".
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Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 02:56:49
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Lethal Lhamean
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I agree with Gornall - it's certainly got to somewhat depend on local meta. At my FLGS a tac squad without a power fist is in for a visit from Mr. Dreadnaught or Mrs. Talos or something along those lines.
Most of the players who don't bother with the fist also never bother getting out of their transports really either - so I do suppose that's an option. (one of my toughest local SM opponents actually runs razor spam and the minimized marine squads basically just sit inside playing harmonicas while he and I duel with Lances and Lascannons.
I hate that list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/12/16 06:40:37
Subject: Understanding Basic SM Tac Squad Tactics
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics shouldn't take power fists.
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