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For me tacs work fine as tankhunters. I usually add Melta and combimelta plus a Las/plas RB. bolters hang back on objectives, sarge goes tank hunting. I even do this in KP missions and it didn't hurt me too bad yet ^^
The PF imo is needed if you don't have many (counter-)assault elements. But why bother if you have a squad of ASStermis riding around in their landraider or an assaultsquad at hand to get rid of troublemakers? Most times I'd prefer to add another sternguard or two scouts over a PF.

I'm with Phryxis and disagreeing with the posters who are saying that tac squads are versatile. Unless by "versatile" you mean they can either (1) hold objectives in objective missions and (2) hide and not die in KP missions and (3) not really anything else.

My local meta contains a little bit of everything, so I don't have the luxury of knowing that power fists or combi weapons are going to do me any good. In fact I found that my tac squads with power fists were getting killed, so I took the fists out and have been a lot more successful since then. But--as a mostly chaos and Eldar player--it took me a long time to wrap my head around this particular way of using SM tac squads, which is the most successful one for me so far in the widest variety of games:

1. Every tac squad needs a rhino and every marine should be in it. I experimented with combat squadding and putting the heavy weapon outside the rhino, but the guys in the open always get killed by the fifty billion infantry-killing things that are in the game now.

2. My tac squads never voluntarily get out of the rhino. Marines outside a rhino are dead marines. If it's near the end of the game and it's to my advantage to mop up a weakened, isolated unit with a lot of bolter fire or an assault, then that's the only time they voluntarily get out.

3. If there is no danger of the rhino being assaulted and there's a good target in range, my rhinos may sit still and shoot the heavy weapon from the hatch. If there's any danger of the rhino being assaulted, then moving is better because that one shot is not going to be worth losing the rhino (and getting the tac squad killed).

4. If there's very little danger of a viable assault and a really good target in the right spot, then my rhinos are allowed to move at combat speed and fire the special weapon out the hatch and the storm bolter. This almost never happens.

5. If there's any danger of the rhino being assaulted, then it moves at combat speed and doesn't shoot.

6. My rhinos hide as much as possible, out of true LoS if possible, in cover at minimum. They only break cover in turn 5+ in order to claim objectives.

Playing this way, it makes the most sense to take the 205 point tac squad with free special & heavy weapons and no other upgrades (maybe a dozer blade on the rhino to help its survivability). Then I use the extra points to jack up the rest of my army's killing power, since they're the ones who are doing all the actual offensive work.

I've even started wondering lately if I should do like the opponent Thor describes and just go to minsize tac squads (I personally wouldn't do razorbacks, though, because you need probably 5+ razors for that spam to be viable, and my tac squads spend too much time hiding and moving to be viable at shooting).

btw, this is not to say that this is the only way to use tac squads successfully. YMMV and if somebody has another realistic way to maximize the effectiveness of tac squads in 5th edition in an all-comers environment, I'd be the first to jump on that bandwagon.

I'm with Flavius Infernus & Phryxis. Tactical Space Marines are not very versatile, unless by "versatile" you mean they can either be (1) Tactical Space Marines or (2) not Tactical Space Marines. Otherwise they're not versatile at all.

I think that there are certainly times when hopping out the Rhino and rapid-firing bolters can be well worthwhile, so long as you have a reasonably reliable way to avoid being assaulted (eg firing through a small gap between the Rhino & something else, or rapid-firing your Tac Squad and then charging the dangerous enemy unit with your dedicated counter-assault unit).

A lot of what Flavius is saying is how I view Tac squads as well. Shooting out of the top hatch has gotten very attractive lately, and when you consider that a lot of the time the Heavy weapon is all they'd be shooting anyway, it makes a lot of sense.

That said, for some opponents (Tyranids and Orks come to mind), where there's nothing too much that can just pop up in your backfield, Combat Squadding and sending half the squad up to tar pit isn't a bad idea either. In my experience, it doesn't matter how good you are at 40K, some of your models have to die. This being the case, you want to have it happen in the way least detrimental to your cause. If you can cause a squad of Genestealers to spend turn 5 and 6 beating the crap out of your Tacticals in the middle of nowhere, instead of on your objective, you've won.

In general, I don't necessarily advocate using Tacticals as passively as Flavius does, as I think they're worth having around to provide support and to distract from the harder hitting units. But, if you do bring them into the action, don't expect them to rip it up, they're just there to provide bodies and a little support.

Last item: I'd always recommend having one squad with Lascannon and Plasma Gun. This is the "my objective" squad. In 2/3rds of games there are objectives, and in virtually all of those, there's one that's close to your own side. This squad's job is to hold that objective, and their weapons are chosen to allow them to provide some amount of firepower while they do it.

Phryxis wrote:
That said, for some opponents (Tyranids and Orks come to mind), where there's nothing too much that can just pop up in your backfield, Combat Squadding and sending half the squad up to tar pit isn't a bad idea either.

Heh, normally I'd agree but this made me laugh because of a game I played last night where I broke my "no combat squads" rule against a tyranid army an a lictor popped out and killed the five guys who were in the open. No other tactical marines died during the course of that game, because they stayed in their rhinos.

But that was an unusual case and I should have remembered the lictors.

Phryxis wrote:
Last item: I'd always recommend having one squad with Lascannon and Plasma Gun. This is the "my objective" squad. In 2/3rds of games there are objectives, and in virtually all of those, there's one that's close to your own side. This squad's job is to hold that objective, and their weapons are chosen to allow them to provide some amount of firepower while they do it.

I've been more and more attracted to the idea of taking this squad with a Sicarius army for tank hunters. I really like the idea of being able to hit a land raider or vindicator with a str10 shot from 48" away (even the plasma gun would be str8 vs vehicles).

Flavius Infernus wrote:I've even started wondering lately if I should do like the opponent Thor describes and just go to minsize tac squads (I personally wouldn't do razorbacks, though, because you need probably 5+ razors for that spam to be viable, and my tac squads spend too much time hiding and moving to be viable at shooting).

If his battle results are any indication it's not a bad strategy. I personally sweat the R.Backs because I'm flying around in styrofoam skimmers - but going with pure Rhinos instead could probably be reasonably viable. The big advantage for the R.Backs is that if he's sitting there claiming objectives and no one is around he can add some extra pressure via the lascannon or whatever. If there is a threat around he can always hoof it away if he needs to (As he often does versus my Orks). But, yeah, his extra points usually go well in serving up lots of other more horrible Marine options that I have to worry about rather then focusing on the mini Tacs.

Personally power weapons are a better buy for tac squads. except for squads that you are dedicating to tank hunting. PFs are OK for killing MCs, but most MCs are capable of wiping a squad of marines out in a maximum of 2 turns and many MCs are immune to ID(either because of T6 or better, or eternal warrior)

Pweapons are better all around because

1) cheaper

2) power weapons CAN eat MEQs. going at I4 means less chance of you not being able to use your weapon.(the chaos marine with a power sword kills your sergeant before he gets to swing)

3) there are only a few instances where a PF is better. Vehicles with a rear armor of 11 or better, walkers with 12 front, and things with T6. these are things you probably shouldn't be assaulting anyway.

I'm pretty meh about PWs. They don't really inflict additional wounds against MEQ, don't help against Rhinos and other AV10 rear armor vehicles, and don't scare ICs/Bikes/Walkers. Once again, though, I think this is a preference thing and depends on meta and how you use your tacticals.

Pweapons are better all around because

Why does every thread devolve into this?

You're completely wrong, PWs are not better than PFs. Taking a PF is questionable, in a lot of cases it's just too many points to put into the squad, but if you are going to upgrade the Sarge, you take a PF.

A PF is more effective against MEqs that a PW. The situations where the a PF gets killed off before it can attack certainly arise, but having the PF means you're less likely to get there in the first place.

You're not take a PF so you can attack TMCs, etc, you're taking it so the TMC is less likely to attack you. A PF hidden in a Tac squad will kill off a shooty Fex faster than that Fex can kill off the Marine squad. So in some cases you DO want to attack a TMC with a PF squad. You'd never do it with a PW.

Here's the bottom line: A PW improves what a Tactical squad can already do. Since they're not very good at it in the first place, improving it is of dubious value. A PF completely changes what a Tactical squad can do, changes what they can threaten, protects them from the things that normal prey on them.

There's no contest, a PF is still the best option.

Sarge:
3 attacks with power weapon base, 4's to hit, 4's to wound vs. MEQ.
Results: '0.75 dead marines on average'.

2 attacks with power fist base, 4's to hit, 2's to wound vs. MEQ.
Results: '0.83 dead marines on average'.

PW PHAIL.

Edit after Phryxis's post below.
And no binomiawhatchamacallit

Flavius Infernus wrote:1. Every tac squad needs a rhino and every marine should be in it. I experimented with combat squadding and putting the heavy weapon outside the rhino, but the guys in the open always get killed by the fifty billion infantry-killing things that are in the game now.

2. My tac squads never voluntarily get out of the rhino. Marines outside a rhino are dead marines. If it's near the end of the game and it's to my advantage to mop up a weakened, isolated unit with a lot of bolter fire or an assault, then that's the only time they voluntarily get out.

3. If there is no danger of the rhino being assaulted and there's a good target in range, my rhinos may sit still and shoot the heavy weapon from the hatch. If there's any danger of the rhino being assaulted, then moving is better because that one shot is not going to be worth losing the rhino (and getting the tac squad killed).

4. If there's very little danger of a viable assault and a really good target in the right spot, then my rhinos are allowed to move at combat speed and fire the special weapon out the hatch and the storm bolter. This almost never happens.

5. If there's any danger of the rhino being assaulted, then it moves at combat speed and doesn't shoot.

6. My rhinos hide as much as possible, out of true LoS if possible, in cover at minimum. They only break cover in turn 5+ in order to claim objectives.

Playing this way, it makes the most sense to take the 205 point tac squad with free special & heavy weapons and no other upgrades (maybe a dozer blade on the rhino to help its survivability). Then I use the extra points to jack up the rest of my army's killing power, since they're the ones who are doing all the actual offensive work.

I like where your head is at. But I don't feel like you are getting nearly 205 points out of the unit.

For 100 points, you can get a stealthed sniper rifle/missile launcher scout unit. With leadership 9 and a 3+ cover (2+ once someone even looks at you) this is bargain basement "home base" campers.

For 130 points you can buy 5 space marines and a razorback and for 160 you can have a las/plas razor. If all you are going to be doing is alternating between moving 12" to stay alive or remaining stationary to shoot heavy weapons and refusing to disembark under any circumstances, then save 45-75 points and buy this thing.

If you want to use special weapons with your troops, then why not field 4x bikes and an attack bike. that opens up access to two specials and one heavy, with the appropriate ratio of survivability/cost/output. You have to pay the captain tax. But thats just the way it is...


Now, I'm not saying any of those options are any better than a full tac squad with rhino. but if you aren't interested in any flexibility in you troops slot, those are WAY better buys.

If you DO want flexibility (not necesarily the right answer) then you should buy a rhino, buy 10 guys, the heavy weapon you think your army needs and the special weapon AND combi-weapon you think your army needs. by doing so, you gain these following configurations....

10x marines in rhino...
stationary rhino shooting heavy weapon and one long range bolter.
mobile rhino shooting both special weapons.
makeshift assault unit or when its completely safe to do so, move 12" spin, debark bolter drill unit.

5x marines with sergeant and special in rhino, 5x marines with heavy weapon in cover.
small 3+ armor having firebase/scoring unit plus mobile special weapon rhino.

As far as "all of the weapons that can kill space marines on foot from range". i don't really know what all that is about. I play a nasty IG army, and outside of my two vendettas (which are easily handled), none of my long ranged firepower is ap3. I also am disadvantaged when facing armies that can create MSU gunlines. Neutralizing firepower with weaken resolve becomes harder and I tend to do more overkill with hydras and manticores, when I'm facing a bunch of 100 point units, versus half as many 200 point units.

And as far as "space marines can't assault" tell that to any tau unit (even kroot if they don't get the charge), any competitive IG unit except infantry platoons. And also tell that to rear armor 10 vehicles that would prefer to remain stationary or move 6" in order to do their job. It should be obvious that space marines aren't a dedicated assault unit, but you need to be prepared with any space marine army (even silly razorback spam armies) that you are going to face opponents who can outshoot you. When that happens, using the tac marines aggressively can give you another tool to win. Hiding 205 points from mass autocannons for as long as you can seems more like playing a 1150 sized army versus a 1750 to me.

I would say it's only partially wrong, and that naturally the choice of Powerfist or Power Weapon should be dictated by the strategy you wish to pursue.

A Tactical Sergeant with a Power Weapon and a Pistol has A2(3) while one armed with a Power Fist has A2.

A Power Weapon has:
50% less Strength
50% more Attacks
300% better Initiative
40% less Points cost

A Tyranid Monstrous Creature is going to attack no matter what - they're not going to sit back and shoot when they can shoot and assault. You're better off with a Melta Gun to shoot after using Combat Tactics to escape the monstrosity rather than hoping your Tactical squad can somehow hold its own.

Against transports and light vehicles, the entire squad has krak grenades, and a Power Fist isn't going to do much to the heaviest vehicles, the ones with AV14 rear armour rather than AV10 rear armour.

Basically the only reason to take a Powerfist is enemy walkers, because at least a lucky hit can destroy them, and there's usually only one in combat (so you don't need so many attacks). Nonetheless, that is a very powerful reason to take them considering that all kinds of Marines have walkers, Daemons have Soulgrinders, Chaos Space Marines have Defilers, Orks have Kans and Deff Dreds, and Space Marines themselves have Ironclads that are immune to krak grenades.

Take the Powerfists commensurate with the number of enemy walkers you expect to come plowing into your lines, or counter-attacking your assault troops. Otherwise you're better off hunting the buggers with Melta weaponry.

Results: 83% change to kill a marine.

For the sake of Mathhammer Accuracy: It's actually .83 dead Marines on average. I'm not going to run the binomial distribution right now, but that .83 breaks into some set of odds for killing 0, 1, or 2. Probably something like .17 to kill 0, .60 to kill 1, .17 to kill 2.

A Tyranid Monstrous Creature is going to attack no matter what - they're not going to sit back and shoot when they can shoot and assault.

Not true, sir. I play Nidzilla, and I learned pretty quick that a unit with a PF in it is to be avoided. I have Dakkafexes and Gunfexes, and both have low A, poor WS, and poor I. They actually pretty much suck in CC. 5+ Marines with a PF will kill them off in CC.

Even a more vicious CC TMC, like a Tyrant or Screamer Killer, is going to lose to a big squad of Marines with a Fist.

It's not just Walkers. It's Walkers, Plague Marines, Bikes, any IC who you can Instant Kill, TMCs, etc. etc. It's stuff that's actually very common. It's the stuff that's tougher than MEqs. And that's the stuff you need help with. Who cares if you're 15% better at killing GEqs? You don't need help doing that anyway.

Fetterkey wrote:Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics shouldn't take power fists.

Why? The possibility of No Retreat! wounds?

Monster Rain wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics shouldn't take power fists.

Why? The possibility of No Retreat! wounds?

What does that even mean? You suffer No Retreat regardless of whether you have the fist, which is actually a good thing. Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics want to either win immediately or else lose combat and fall back when they are charged. Taking power fists makes it less likely that you will lose combat, while also not giving you enough of a boost to make it so that you'll have a clear victory. The fist also gives you a chance of tying assault, especially against walkers, which you never want to have happen.

Shep wrote:
For 100 points, you can get a stealthed sniper rifle/missile launcher scout unit. With leadership 9 and a 3+ cover (2+ once someone even looks at you) this is bargain basement "home base" campers.

Got one of these squads and I use it. But not as home base campers because they're too vulnerable to mobile flamers. I actually get much more milage out of them by outflanking to force bad deployments, or infiltrating them waaaay off to one side where the enemy has to send something out of position after them.

The best home base camper I've found for my particular army is ten tac marines in a rhino. Even if they get shot out, the numbers and cover of the wreck let them persist indefinitely against any long-range fire.

Shep wrote:
For 130 points you can buy 5 space marines and a razorback and for 160 you can have a las/plas razor...

Been thinkin about that. Haven't decided if the security of ten space marines when I do need a rapid-fire or assault is more important to my list.

Shep wrote:If you want to use special weapons with your troops, then why not field 4x bikes and an attack bike. that opens up access to two specials and one heavy, with the appropriate ratio of survivability/cost/output.

Again, trading firepower for numbers as with the razorbacks. But I'm not sure I miss the firepower. That's the surprising thing for me as a relatively new marine player: the heavies and speeders and dreads are soo points-efficient, that apparently I can have 600 points of my army sitting around doing nothing and still have a huge number of guns lobbing shots downrange in 1750+ point games.

Shep wrote:
As far as "all of the weapons that can kill space marines on foot from range". i don't really know what all that is about.

Yeah, I don't know what that's about either, since I didn't say it

There are only like three things I see regularly that can hurt marines in cover from med/long range, and that's battle cannons, dire avengers (18" is a decent range) and, uh, okay that's it. I've never actually seen a colossus, but I hear they do exist.

What I meant when I said "the billion things that kill marines" was mostly assaulting units that are flying/fleeting, deepstriking or outflanking. Those daemon princes, termicide squads, pod dreads and genestealers just blow past everything and go straight for the tac squads in the open. In a rhino moving at cruising speed, those things are mostly ineffective. That would also be true of five guys in a razorback for cheaper (although not of bikes), and that's where I'm debating whether the extra five marines are worth it for the turn following the odd lucky hit on the moving rhino. Also I reckon I probably shoot each tac squad's heavy weapon two or three times per game when the enemy is coming to me, so that's pretty worthwhile if it's a multi-melta, which you sadly can't get on a razor.

Also I'd obviously use tac marines to assault Tau or Necrons or isolated units of guardsmen, anything with only 1 attack, low initiative or str3 and no power weapons. That's just good sense. But a power fist or power weapon in my tac squad is not going to make 15-25 points worth of difference on the rare occasion when I'm assaulting Tau. But it is a case where the extra five marines will help, especially against Necrons. So I'm still debating that part.

Probably I'm overstating the whole "they do nothing" argument, mostly because it's a conclusion I recently reached. Actually when I think about it, I'm starting to see how by just being there and moving around in particular ways, they let me influence what my opponent is forced to do in objective missions at least. Makes me think of Von Mellenthin tactics, active defense that lures or drives the enemy into kill zones...

If you're really worried about tying combat with the PF, just allocate wounds on him and let him die before he gets to swing. However, in those cases where you only need one or two wounds to kill an MC/IC (or to actually tie/win combat so you stay locked), you can still keep him alive and go for broke. Once again, it's a playstyle preference issue. The SM Codex is flexible/rounded enough that it's not suprising for people to use it differently.

I use Combat Tactics, but the times when I get to break combat are few and far between. Running from shooting is another story as it can be huge. But that requires your opponent to shoot you, something you can't count on.

Fetterkey wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics shouldn't take power fists.

Why? The possibility of No Retreat! wounds?

What does that even mean? You suffer No Retreat regardless of whether you have the fist, which is actually a good thing. Tactical Squads with Combat Tactics want to either win immediately or else lose combat and fall back when they are charged. Taking power fists makes it less likely that you will lose combat, while also not giving you enough of a boost to make it so that you'll have a clear victory. The fist also gives you a chance of tying assault, especially against walkers, which you never want to have happen.

Don't know if the attitude is necessary...

I was saying that if you lose combat by a lot and you take a bunch of No Retreat wounds you'll have to put some on your Sgt and would be losing a 41 point model instead of a 16 point one.

Though I totally disagree with your premise here. If your tactical squad with a fist wipes out the squad that it charges, how is combat tactics even relevant?

Sorry if that post came off as having an "attitude," but I legitimately didn't understand your post. In general, I find that Tactical Squads shouldn't charge, and the targets that they should charge aren't particularly weak to power fists in any case.

I charge with mine all the time. They can really do a job on a depleted mob of Ork Boyz or if they happen to find themselves within range of some guardsmen or fire warriors I send them right in there. I'm not arguing in favor of always bringing a fist, since it's usually the first thing to go when I'm freeing up points but if you're going to finish off something that's at least toughness 4, like Boyz or MEQ, the Fist is indispensable.

@Fetterkey:

But Combat Tactics is not a plan to rely on. It's not always Sunshine and Rainbows...they could get raped pretty bad with just someone walking up and skipping after them.
In combat it's around only 50% to actually break from combat, and even then the opponent does get a consolidation roll to move in after them.

Risk Averse:they take fists.
Risk Loving:they rely on what you have said.

I personlly don't take any Tactical Squads or Scouts in my SM army...

What troops do you have?

All bikes maybe?

@Grey Templar:
You win a nonexistant cookie.

I am underwhelmed with tacticals... it's mostly because I'm used to using plague marines.

I play a biker list, but I've always wanted to use 2 Rhino tacticals to support them.
But they've never been on a 'need' basis.

If I were to go with them I'd love to include a fist, just cause it's done very well for me in the past, but if I'm hurting for points, the fist on the tac is generally the first thing I drop.

The only tacticals i've seen doing well are:

10, plasma gun, plasma cannon. (Vanilla List)
10, Melta gun, Combi-melta, MM, Fist (Vulkan List)

The theme is role and specilization.
They can still hold their own, but the SM codex is all about overlapping supporting elements.
This 'should' make a fist not needed, but like the old adage, plans do not survive enemy contact, so fists are always welcomed.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Probably I'm overstating the whole "they do nothing" argument, mostly because it's a conclusion I recently reached. Actually when I think about it, I'm starting to see how by just being there and moving around in particular ways, they let me influence what my opponent is forced to do in objective missions at least. Makes me think of Von Mellenthin tactics, active defense that lures or drives the enemy into kill zones...

More good stuff....

This thread is funny, because its a monumentally complicated answer. I consider myself a good player. I think about 40k a LOT... and I never feel like I maximize my 10 man tac squads. When you have the 10 man in a rhino, you are constantly thinking, Missile? Set up melta? Redeploy 12"? Hide? You are almost never going to fire the special and the heavy in the same turn, and if you want to fire melta you need to spend a turn setting it up. Also, depending on how many troops you run, you never want to give your opponent an opportunity to 'end around' your army and take out all of your troops in a couple turns... so i tend to play cautiously with tac squads...

That squad has LD9 ATSKNF, BS4 bolters, and an amazing statline/armor save. It needs to be in the mix, or its just way too expensive.

Another of my philosophies I developed for 5th edition was that I don't believe in ablative wounds. If the model I just purchased has offensive potential that I have no plans on capitalizing on, then I shouldn't have bought that model. That philosophy has really helped me tighten up my lists, which i felt were already pretty tight. To carry this into an example about tac marines... I don't see 10 tac marines as being twice as survivable as five. Not even close. With 3+ armor, leadership 9, ATSKNF and plenty of support units nearby, its unrealistic to think that in most cases, 5 tac marines can just get "wiped out" by enemy shooting. The unit gets smaller, maybe pins itself, but at some point, it gets small enough to hide behind mech. Games just aren't long enough to shoot down leadership 9 marines without ignoring your offensive output for too long to win. the things that can easily and quickly kill 5 man tac squads, can certainly handle 10 man tac squads. The CC you menioned...

Ok, so all of that basically just leads to the fact that i, on a certain level, agree with the sentiment that tac squads don't do 'anything'. Its because I have a really hard time maximizing my own use of them, and i can believe that just the way 5th ed 40k works, getting 205 points out of a completely unfocused, multi-role unit in one particular game is theoretically impossible. You won't be called on to shoot heavy weapons, shoot special weapons and bolters AND win assaults in a single game very often. I feel like the combat squad heavy weapon, rhino with a special and a combi, makes increasing efficiency easier... But for my taste, taking away that flexibility by running 5mans in razor, scouts
or bikes just makes my decisions in the game easier.

Sanctjud wrote:@Fetterkey:

But Combat Tactics is not a plan to rely on. It's not always Sunshine and Rainbows...they could get raped pretty bad with just someone walking up and skipping after them.
In combat it's around only 50% to actually break from combat, and even then the opponent does get a consolidation roll to move in after them.

I don't consider that a real disadvantage. I would rather fall back off the board or die to No Retreat than stay in assault with a dangerous enemy unit and prevent the rest of my army from shooting it.

Shep wrote:I don't see 10 tac marines as being twice as survivable as five. Not even close. With 3+ armor, leadership 9, ATSKNF and plenty of support units nearby, its unrealistic to think that in most cases, 5 tac marines can just get "wiped out" by enemy shooting. The unit gets smaller, maybe pins itself, but at some point, it gets small enough to hide behind mech. Games just aren't long enough to shoot down leadership 9 marines without ignoring your offensive output for too long to win. the things that can easily and quickly kill 5 man tac squads, can certainly handle 10 man tac squads.

I definitely agree with this. There seems to be a popular myth that Combat Squads makes you somehow less resilient; the opposite is true. One other thing to note is that a Combat Squad can hide behind a Razorback fairly easily, while a Tactical Squad cannot do the same with a Rhino. I give one Combat Squad the heavy weapon, while the other rides in a Razorback with the special weapon and Sergeant.

that is one thing that i do now.

i take Razorbacks for ten man tacticals and combat squad them.

The sergeant, and the combat squad with the assault/special weapon ride to the front in the razorback, which will either have the heavy bolter or an especially evil assault cannon. if playing an objective based game or I have devestators the razorback will have a Lascannon or the heavy bolter. the combat squad with the heavy weapon can sit on an objective either in or behind the RBack and snipe vehicles or infantry. A dev squad can do pretty much the same(except hold the objective)

Devestator squads should have a Razorback just because it can augment/compliment the squads weaponry and the same can be said for a tac squad. a anti-tank squad can have a Heavy bolter/assault cannon to protect them from infantry or a lascannon to aid them in their goal. I had a game against Necrons and my Dev squad was all missile launchers and heavy bolters, the lascannon acctually managed to pop the mono, the Rbac was the only thing i had that could penetrate the mono i had taken(i was pourposing to go for phase out, which i managed) the cost for a Rback is great considering you get a TL Hbolter for a very cheap price

FYI: a nice way to get a TL-assault cannon for a Rback is to not glue the assault cannon that comes with a Crusader/Redeemer down to the hull.

I agree with pretty much everything you've written here, Shep, with one thing to add:

Shep wrote:
Another of my philosophies I developed for 5th edition was that I don't believe in ablative wounds. If the model I just purchased has offensive potential that I have no plans on capitalizing on, then I shouldn't have bought that model. That philosophy has really helped me tighten up my lists, which i felt were already pretty tight.

Well actually I'm playing a Stelek "king of tight lists" mech marine list variant. One thing that I haven't changed from the original version is the 3 full tac squads with multimelta & flamer. I might still experiment with switching out for razors, but this thread has got me thinking about how it feels like those multimeltas are part of a broader redundancy in this particular list. With 2 speeder-mounted multimeltas and 2 dread-mounted ones, those three multimeltas constitute the whole serious anti-heavy-armor firepower of the army. Yes I realize I'm paying, in effect, 120 points for three multimeltas versus the equivalent in lascannon-packing razorbacks, and I don't get the move-and-shoot ability of the razors...

Okay, now actually I'm realizing I could probably squeeze in a fourth razorback for the savings on tac marines, especially at 2K points...

I used to take 10 man squads w/razorback and combat squad.

Then the IG codex was printed in may '09.

That ended real quick.

imweasel wrote:I used to take 10 man squads w/razorback and combat squad.

Then the IG codex was printed in may '09.

That ended real quick.

Are you going to explain that? My ten-man squads with Razorbacks have done their duty admirably against Imperial Guard. A Combat Squad is harder to kill than one might think, especially with 3+ cover from Bolster Defenses and the option to go to ground.