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its a strange point value i know, its for an upcoming tournament that is themed after a civil war battle.

The idea is to have the army mostly remain still for a turn or two and hope to use dark lances to pop transports or at least keep them in check so my ravagers can start to clean up their units that fell out of them, then on turns 3-4 my wyches and lord/incubi move forward dropping horrorfexes on outliers while jumping out to engage the remains of my opponents armies. I am considering leaving one of the ravagers as 3 Dark lances just for monstrous creature hunting.

Suggestions?

1 Dracon (HQ)
>Punisher
>Combat Drugs
>Shadow Field
>Plasma Grenades
>Crucible of Malediction
>Tormentor Helm
2 Warrior Retinue
>Dark Lance (x2)
>Plasma Grenades
4 Additional Incubi
>Torm. Hl. & Punisher
>Plasma Grenades
1 Raider
>Dark Lance
>Horrorfex

6 Wyches (Elites)
>Splinter P. & CCW (x4)
>Blaster (x2)
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
>Punisher
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
>Tormentor Helm
1 Raider
>Dark Lance
>Horrorfex

6 Wyches (Elites)
>Splinter P. & CCW (x4)
>Blaster (x2)
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
>Punisher
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
>Tormentor Helm
1 Raider
>Dark Lance
>Horrorfex

6 Wyches (Elites)
>Splinter P. & CCW (x4)
>Blaster (x2)
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
>Punisher
>Plasma Grenades
>Wych Weapons
>Tormentor Helm
1 Raider
>Dark Lance
>Horrorfex

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
>Splinter Rifle (x3)
>Dark Lance (x1)
>Blaster (x1)
1 Raider
>Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
>Splinter Rifle (x3)
>Dark Lance (x1)
>Blaster (x1)
1 Raider
>Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
>Splinter Rifle (x3)
>Dark Lance (x1)
>Blaster (x1)
1 Raider
>Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
>Splinter Rifle (x3)
>Dark Lance (x1)
>Blaster (x1)
1 Raider
>Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
>Splinter Rifle (x3)
>Dark Lance (x1)
>Blaster (x1)
1 Raider
>Dark Lance

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
>Disintegrator (x3)

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
>Disintegrator (x3)

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
>Disintegrator (x3)

Models in Army: 65
Total Army Cost: 1863

My knee jerk reaction to Lances in a Lord's retinue with Incubi is to scream no. With the Lances and Crucible you'll be playing a sitting and waiting game with Incubi which seems a poor use of their points.

I'll also note you're breaking with the common concept of Wyches by equipping your Succubi with Punishers. Except against toughness 3 or less opponents you'll do just as well or better with an Agoniser and it's cheaper as well. (unless you happen to get the +1 Str drug effect in which case you'll do slightly better against toughness 4 and much better versus toughness 3 - but there's only a 1 in 6 of that happening per squad). Is there a particular line of thought that led you to go Punishers?

Finally, I'm a little lukewarm about the Blasters on the mini sniper boats. How much do you forsee them ending up within 12" of an enemy? The power of those squads is their Lance and they'll want to sit back and shoot with it as much as they can, but once the enemy gets closer you'll be wanting to scoot the Raider away. I can see some tactical options that could come up where this could be helpful, but I question how often it will come up.

I'd probably drop the Lance Warriors off the retinue, drop a Wych from each squad, switch to Agonisers, and drop the Raider squad blasters. That gives you over 105 points which could net you another Raider squad with Lance (which will be an even trade of two lances for two lances - and the new two lances will not be in your strongest assault unit which will free it up to assault when you wish without giving up lance shots. Plus you can now hide the Lord's Raider better since you don't need LOS for the Crucible.) You're also losing 4 Blasters, but I submit they wouldn't have been helping you much anyway - and overall your Wych units will be more adaptable to assault whatever you need with the Agonisers.

You could also use the freed up points to buy nightshields - as gunline DE can really use them to help survivability of their vehicles.

Man Thor beat me to it.


Everything he said is 100% correct.

Wiley..........What in the world. Like you need help with a list. I no longer fear the Nord like I used too. I will be seeing list (hopefully) at the BFSR. And I have new dice. Not that it will help but I am just saying. HeHeHe!!!

My knee jerk reaction to Lances in a Lord's retinue with Incubi is to scream no. With the Lances and Crucible you'll be playing a sitting and waiting game with Incubi which seems a poor use of their points.

i posted why i have these lances at the beginning of my post, i generally spend one to 2 turns sitting still to fire as many lance shots as possible to pop people out of their transports, those warriors are a cheap way to beef the Dracon's squad up to a DL ravager for 1 - 2 turns, then later in the game (when lances aren't as effective anyway because their vehicles have been wiped out) the dark lance warriors become ablative wounds.

I'll also note you're breaking with the common concept of Wyches by equipping your Succubi with Punishers. Except against toughness 3 or less opponents you'll do just as well or better with an Agoniser and it's cheaper as well. (unless you happen to get the +1 Str drug effect in which case you'll do slightly better against toughness 4 and much better versus toughness 3 - but there's only a 1 in 6 of that happening per squad). Is there a particular line of thought that led you to go Punishers?

i have no real reason for giving them punishers and helms over agonizer and pistol other than i was short some points and spent them, and after reading your post i concede the fact that taking punishers keeps them out of the fight vs monstrous creatures, changing that now.

Finally, I'm a little lukewarm about the Blasters on the mini sniper boats. How much do you forsee them ending up within 12" of an enemy? The power of those squads is their Lance and they'll want to sit back and shoot with it as much as they can, but once the enemy gets closer you'll be wanting to scoot the Raider away. I can see some tactical options that could come up where this could be helpful, but I question how often it will come up.

my thinking is (and this seems to happen to me often) is that when my raiders become shredded paper i either have to get on the move to head for objectives or i sit still, and if i'm moving that means i have no lances to fire, but for 5 points i can get a 12" lance, but i can see the argument both ways.

I'd probably drop the Lance Warriors off the retinue, drop a Wych from each squad, switch to Agonisers, and drop the Raider squad blasters. That gives you over 105 points which could net you another Raider squad with Lance (which will be an even trade of two lances for two lances - and the new two lances will not be in your strongest assault unit which will free it up to assault when you wish without giving up lance shots. Plus you can now hide the Lord's Raider better since you don't need LOS for the Crucible.) You're also losing 4 Blasters, but I submit they wouldn't have been helping you much anyway - and overall your Wych units will be more adaptable to assault whatever you need with the Agonisers.

6 troops do sound pretty tasty...hmmm

You could also use the freed up points to buy nightshields - as gunline DE can really use them to help survivability of their vehicles.

i have found night shields to only really be effective vs heavy bolters, as if lascannons/autocannons/missle launchers locate centrally, they can still hit me thru night shields if i want to be in range to shoot at them...so i rarely take shields on anything but ravagers.

thanks for the suggestions, i'll look at my list and see what i can come up with!

Wiley..........What in the world. Like you need help with a list. I no longer fear the Nord like I used too. I will be seeing list (hopefully) at the BFSR. And I have new dice. Not that it will help but I am just saying. HeHeHe!!!

I don't know which B&B you are, but it sounds like we have played before, which means I'm sure I lost!

wileythenord wrote:

My knee jerk reaction to Lances in a Lord's retinue with Incubi is to scream no. With the Lances and Crucible you'll be playing a sitting and waiting game with Incubi which seems a poor use of their points.

i posted why i have these lances at the beginning of my post, i generally spend one to 2 turns sitting still to fire as many lance shots as possible to pop people out of their transports, those warriors are a cheap way to beef the Dracon's squad up to a DL ravager for 1 - 2 turns, then later in the game (when lances aren't as effective anyway because their vehicles have been wiped out) the dark lance warriors become ablative wounds.

I was well aware of your plan, I was just commenting on my reaction to it. I hate to have to sit my Lord's Raider out in the open trying to shoot with it - because that's when people can they shoot back. The psuedo-Ravager sounds awesome, but it seems like he'd be priority number one (or maybe two after the Ravagers depending on the list type) for the enemy to shoot and it's not easy for a Raider to survive the enemy deciding to kill it. Do you often end up having your Incubi needing to steal another squad's Raider after their own has been blown out from under them? I just don't see the defense option available to the squad.

my thinking is (and this seems to happen to me often) is that when my raiders become shredded paper i either have to get on the move to head for objectives or i sit still, and if i'm moving that means i have no lances to fire, but for 5 points i can get a 12" lance, but i can see the argument both ways.

Yeah, that makes some sense. I usually run at least two Gunboats so those are my objective claimers but you're correct - with no other troop choices the mini-snipers have to be the objective nabbers. I'd probably leave those with blown up Raiders just sitting put using their wrecked vehicle for cover and still shooting from where they're at and use the still mech-ed ones to nab stuff. I suppose my counter point would be if you need them to get into cover or nab an objective then you should probably be running with them, not shooting.

i have found night shields to only really be effective vs heavy bolters, as if lascannons/autocannons/missle launchers locate centrally, they can still hit me thru night shields if i want to be in range to shoot at them...so i rarely take shields on anything but ravagers.

Night Shields really start to shine when you're fighting Eldar though, and Eldar are a tough fight for us. Personally I agree with you - but I thought it worth mentioning.

lol you know us B&B guys i think i will be bringing my wolves so i would have a tough time against this army. i only have one weapon that fires more the 24 inches so i have to hope to get very lucky on my other shots and get close enough to do the things i need to. Uhg might hurt. i think the only thing that would give you problems would be a longfang heavy space wolf army, a heavy weapon heavy guard army or tau. or maybe a straight hoard of 200+ orcs with lots of lootas. i think its very solid.

This list needs more cowbell.

Why are DE players never bringing enough cowbell?

You fool, ever since 5th edition cowbell has no effect under the rules because our codex is fifty-bajillion years old. Only n00bs bring cowbell.

Ok Thor, i took some suggestions, how does this look? i kept the crucible though, with the chance of 4 rune priests or the ability to kill some farseers i see no reason not to take it and pop it first turn if needed...
Unnamed1863 Pts - Dark Eldar Army

1 Dracon (HQ)
> Punisher
> Combat Drugs
> Shadow Field
> Plasma Grenades
> Tormentor Helm
> Crucible of Malediction
5 Incubi Retinue
> Plasma Grenades
1 Raider
> Dark Lance
> Horrorfex

5 Wyches (Elites)
> Blaster (x2)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
> Agoniser (x1)
> Splinter Pistol (x1)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Raider
> Dark Lance
> Horrorfex

5 Wyches (Elites)
> Blaster (x2)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
> Agoniser (x1)
> Splinter Pistol (x1)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Raider
> Dark Lance
> Horrorfex

5 Wyches (Elites)
> Blaster (x2)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Succubus
> Agoniser (x1)
> Splinter Pistol (x1)
> Plasma Grenades
> Wych Weapons
1 Raider
> Dark Lance
> Horrorfex

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

5 Raider Squad (Troops)
> Dark Lance (x1)
1 Raider
> Dark Lance

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
> Disintegrator (x3)

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
> Disintegrator (x3)

1 Ravager (Heavy Support)
> Disintegrator (x3)

Models in Army: 67
Total Army Cost: 1863

I agree with you as far as Nightmare Doll goes. I'm actually really excited about how psykers are making a comeback in more armies because it will make a Doll inclusion into a tourney army very viable and valuable indeed (though I think I'll probably end up buying a Sybarite on a Raider squad to be my carrier simply because since I don't play gunline DE I can't emotionally deal with not moving my Archon every turn). I think it's a very solid option to include and if I ever suggested otherwise ignore me.

Your list is very similar to lists I will commonly play now, so I really have no screaming complaints. You've got a potent gunline force and can use the Wyches as either counter charge or a driving assault force as the situation (or more likely opposing army) calls for it. Sixteen Dark Lances can be pretty intimidating and should also allow you to carve up mech pretty efficiently by turn 2-3. The Ravagers and Incubi are potent tools to deal with horde - which if your army has a weak point it's probably dealing with horde, but you're so mobile you ought to be able to control and limit what ends up getting swallowed by the mass. I think the army looks very sharp.

Try this out for side
dracon spinter pistol agonizer, combat drugs, shadowfield,hell mask
6 incubi
1incubi master with drugs
raider
haemonculi night mare doll, webway portal siscor hands stringer
haemonculi web way portal sissor hands destructor drugs 9 grotesques
raider
haemonculi web way portal sissor hands destructor drugs 9 grotesques
raider

warrior squad 10 man 2 dark lances
warrior squad 10 man 2 dark lances
warrior squad 10 man 2 dark lances
warrior squad 10 man 2 dark lances

ravager 3 dissies with night shields
ravager 3 dissies with night shields
talos
comes too 1850

What's coming out of the three portals you're paying for in that list? One Talos and the dracon and his retinue? Is that really worth 150 points worth of wargear? Speaking of the incubi, I would submit you're better off either saving the odd 70 points by not paying for that incubi master and his wargear or splurging on the extra 20 points to get Drahzar who is substantially more dangerous and has more wounds as well. I also question maximizing the Grotesque squads if they're there simply to help the survivability of the Haemys they're with.

Is it the lone footsloggin' Haemy's job just to drop a WWP and then to zap off the nightmare doll afterward? I'm guessing he links up with one of the Warrior sniper squads?

What is your local metagame like? I agree a great deal with some of your thoughts (extra DLs for a turn or two of shooting, no nightshields, etc), and depending on what you normally face could make a huge difference in what to take.

There are few horde armies where I play, and more and more mech players, and I'm finding DLs are pretty unreliable at reliably tackling vehicle hordes, so I've found myself gradually shifting to an extremely-heavy DL spam, which is working out pretty well for me. Conversely, I find wychs less and less effective, as they aren't great against vehicles, they're so fragile to shooting, and don't decisively win combats, leading to attrition and eventually losing combat (or winning and getting gunned down).

My 1750 list has currently evolved to the following, although I'm tempted to replace an HQ with 3 haemonculi with scissorhands and destructors and another wych squad:

Dracon with pistol, agonizer, 5 incubi, 3 warriors with 2 DL, raider

Dracon with pistol, agonizer, 4 incubi, 3 warriors with 2 DL, raider

2 x wych squad of 5 wyches, 2 with blasters, raider

6 x raider squad 5 DE, dark lance, raider

3 x ravager with 3 DL

Like you said, sit still for a turn or two chucking out 30 DL shots, then zip in to finish things off. If needed, the wyches can act as a shield for the HQs as they turbo-boost up a flank to assault the appropriate enemies.

Do you get much use out of the horrorfexes? I see some people swear by them, but I've never really seen the point.

I don't think the blasters are bad in the line squads, but they'd be one of the first places I'd look to shave points. Still, 5 points for the thing can be helpful if forced to move or cornered by something nasty.

For my list, at 1863, I'd either drop an incubi and add a third cheap wych squad, or possibly add a bunch of slave snares (weakness is hordes, and they could put out a lot of S4 hits as things close). That, and the possibility of the haemonculi (templates are always handy to have).

actually my last couple of games the horror fexes have been brutal, at 2k i have them on every raider, they are good for keeping units you aren't ready to deal with out of the fight.

your list looks similiar to what i ran for a while, just DL spam and few incubi for cleanup. but that got old to me really fast. I won quite a few games with it though, i quickly realized xenos didn't care as much about those lance shots as MEQ does, Eldar is frackkin tough to fight with DE.

Our local metagame is basically all mechanized everything, so my DL spam list works well, but i travel to tournaments in a few surrounding towns and want to make sure i'm competitive there as well.