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Norade wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

Norade wrote:
The thing is no matter when you measure the rules allow you to measure center to center so everything is null anyway as the point to measured from never moved more than x". The diagram shows one way of measuring, but the rules simply say hull so how do you argue against that?

Do you have a citation for that? I've never found a rule allowing that, and I'd be interested if it exists.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull )ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners, and other decorative elements."

Thus you can measure from anywhere on the hull to anywhere on the hull provided the same points are used in both the beginning and the end of the measuring step.

Do you really want me to point out the logical flaws in your reasoning there?

Catachan_Devil wrote:tanks on tracks can pivot on the spot - one side goes forwards the other goes in reverse and the tank is doing 360's without moving any where.

i decide to spin my Chimera on the spot 6 times - how far has it moved??

Pvt. Jet wrote:0

wrong according to the pivot gains inches clan - depending on which way i am facing i have potentially moved 1-2"

hear is another question - if i only pivot 90 degrees and then go to shoot i count as moving at combat speed beacause i have move an inch in a given direction?? and therefore can only fire one weapon (+ defensive) instead of all my weapons

where do you draw the line.. the BRB states that pivoting on the spot does not count as movement when shooting and you dont lose movement

but some people now want to make it count


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just keep it simple

Catachan_Devil wrote:
where do you draw the line.. the BRB states that pivoting on the spot does not count as movement when shooting and you dont lose movement

but some people now want to make it count

Drawing a line is pretty easy. The rule itself says so...and has an interesting inference:

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary."

The rule itself says when pivoting does not count as moving. As a correlation, it would imply that pivoting in other circumstances would count as moving.

Like I said, its a horribly written rule.

Agreed with Centurian. Here's how I see pivoting. I've been arguing you measure before you move, then follow that move with any pivots up to your measured point. If you ONLY want to pivot, well, draw your line at 0". Then feel free to pivot. No move incurred. However, if you want to move, say, 2" to the left and your facing up, the pivot becomes part of the move. As Centurian said, "a vehicle that ONLY pivots in the movement phase counts as stationary."

Frankly, something I missed but only proves my point.

Also! Whenever one of you says "any movement gained is subjective," it's not. I can easily point out to you the difference. Leave a vehicle pointing straight up, move it 12", easy. Start a vehicle left or right, then move it up according to option A, and you are MORE than 12" off your starting point. Objectively, there is a distinct change that gives a benefit to the use, otherwise we wouldn't be arguing this.

Again, any movement is forward to back, you measure before your move, and only if pivoting is the only thing you do in your movement phase does it not count as movement. The rule here being that a tank can swivel on it's spot and still shoot, NOT allowing defying of physics to move faster by starting in a different direction.

Sorry, but IMO, this is sliding more and more for me as I read the rules from a RAI that should be fixed to misinterpreted and poorly written RAW that needs to be REinterpreted.

Pvt. Jet wrote:
Again, any movement is forward to back, you measure before your move, and only if pivoting is the only thing you do in your movement phase does it not count as movement. The rule here being that a tank can swivel on it's spot and still shoot, NOT allowing defying of physics to move faster by starting in a different direction.

Ignoring my previous argument does not make you right.

Several things are either being ignored or misunderstood here.


We are only given an ability to measure when it is required by the rules, we cannot just start measuring because we feel like it. In order to move we obviously do have to measure but we can only measure what is allowed.

A pivot doesnt count as movement. A vehicle that pivots in place doesnt count as having moved at all, so no measurement can be made when a vehicle first pivots. That alone blows a gaping hole in several of the posts here.

A vehicle can only move forward or backward...so its only the movement directly forward or backwards that can be measured.

How do we measure anything involving vehicles? From the hull. So for movement we have to measure from the hull forward and or backwards.



We can only measure when we are allowed to measure. So we can only measure movement...which is defined as moving the vehicle forward or backward.




Pivots are not allowed to be measured, because they arent counted as movement. Movement in 40k is fairly limited in nature, models may be moved in a variety of ways but only a very few of these ways are movement.



Sliggoth

It's possibly worth pointing out that under the 'measure before you pivot the vehicle' interpretation, vehicles tank shocking in any direction other than the way they are currently facing will move further than vehicles moving the same number of inches with normal movement, since the Tank Shock rules do specify that you pivot the tank in the appropriate direction before measuring movement.

I voted A.

Sliggoth wrote:
We can only measure when we are allowed to measure. So we can only measure movement...which is defined as moving the vehicle forward or backward.

Flawed premises. The main one - and again, I quote the rules: "Pivoting on the spot does not count as movement, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase..." (emphasis added). All that means is that if all you do is pivot, it doesn't count as movement.

Insaniak wrote:
It's possibly worth pointing out that under the 'measure before you pivot the vehicle' interpretation, vehicles tank shocking in any direction other than the way they are currently facing will move further than vehicles moving the same number of inches with normal movement, since the Tank Shock rules do specify that you pivot the tank in the appropriate direction before measuring movement.

Yep, it does potentially create a contradiction. Again, its a horribly written rule.

I'm not arguing for either side. I'm just arguing that I don't think there's a RAW answer to this problem. Any answer that people are claiming as RAW really require a number of assumptions beyond the RAW.

what happens if i first pivot not intending to move and then change my mind and then decide to drive forward

Centurian99 wrote:Flawed premises. The main one - and again, I quote the rules: "Pivoting on the spot does not count as movement, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase..." (emphasis added). All that means is that if all you do is pivot, it doesn't count as movement.

What about "Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move."?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Flawed premises. The main one - and again, I quote the rules: "Pivoting on the spot does not count as movement, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase..." (emphasis added). All that means is that if all you do is pivot, it doesn't count as movement.

What about "Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move."?

I answered that question on Page 9, in a response to GWAR.

But in short...the question isn't whether turning reduces the vehicle's move, because it doesn't, obviously. The question is when do you measure the move: before or after the turn? The rules simply do not say (except in the case of of tank shocks/rams, which have their own rules).

Centurian99 wrote:

Norade wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

Norade wrote:
The thing is no matter when you measure the rules allow you to measure center to center so everything is null anyway as the point to measured from never moved more than x". The diagram shows one way of measuring, but the rules simply say hull so how do you argue against that?

Do you have a citation for that? I've never found a rule allowing that, and I'd be interested if it exists.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull )ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners, and other decorative elements."

Thus you can measure from anywhere on the hull to anywhere on the hull provided the same points are used in both the beginning and the end of the measuring step.

Do you really want me to point out the logical flaws in your reasoning there?

Please do try, according to the rules I can measure from anywhere on my hull and so long as after I move that point hasn't moved beyond x" I am legally within the rules.

all i have to say is thank god my gaming group does not care for an inch here or there - everyone i have ever played with has pivoted to the direction they want to travel.. measure front to front and are free to repeat the process through out the move only counting the actual distance moved forwards or backwards

what i want to know is how do people who are against this method deal with driving around the corner of a building or moves that require the vehicle to move in a number of differnt directions - you cant measure as the bird flies

Given that Tank shocking doesn't effect ability to shoot. Why not place the Land Raider on it's side on the edge of the deployment zone and then Tank shock directly at the opponent. Buy the Tank shock rules it details following the process options A & B describe hence you "gain" the extra movement...

As has been pointed out the movement rules provide only that you measure from the same point to same point and with vehicles you are free to measure anywhere from the hull. So again you can just use centre measurement and the answer is resolved.

Basically anything you try to nail down with clutching at straws can be easily overriden to retain the same effect using the RaW...

Centurian99 wrote:But in short...the question isn't whether turning reduces the vehicle's move, because it doesn't, obviously. The question is when do you measure the move: before or after the turn? The rules simply do not say (except in the case of of tank shocks/rams, which have their own rules).

"Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model." You can measure before and after any turn.

The rules are clear as anything, you CAN NOT GAIN OR LOSE MOVEMENT BY PIVOTING!

That means not that any gain or loss is imaginary (I lold') it means that any gain or loss IS AN ILLEGAL MOVEMENT!

The rules for moving say that no part of the unit may be outside the units maximum movement. You are breaking the explicit instructions on page 12. You are directly making what GW call a common mistake.

So, if I want to about face and move my Rhino 6", I turn it 180 degrees and move one inch, as turning reduced my vehicle's move?

ihatehumans you're 3rd AND 4th diagrams are wrong. You have to move forwards or backwards for vehicles and you hacve to measure from the same point to the same point.

As slow poke has asked try your diagrams again using a 180 degree turn and remembering to always measure from the same point to the same point.

See how far the vehicle has moved.

Then try to find a measuring system that works with multiple turns say druiving round a circular object.

It really isn't that hard to comprehend:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:So, if I want to about face and move my Rhino 6", I turn it 180 degrees and move one inch, as turning reduced my vehicle's move?

No, you measure before you pivot, and you measure from a point on the hull facing the direction of travel. Therefore you still move a full 6" without the added effect of being able to bend the rules to move farther than allowed when making 90 degree turns.

And where does it say anything like that?

Here is my little X Rhino....

This is how people are getting extra/infinite moving capabilities.

They measure from the front, to the side.

.......................XXXX
XXXXXXX...........XXXX
XXXXXXX...........XXXX
XXXXXXX...........XXXX
.......................XXXX
............|--------------->
....................6"

And then rotate the vehicle for an extra inch or so.


XXXXXXX.........XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX.........XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX.........XXXXXXX
............|--------------->->
...................6"........Extra

I wouldn't allow this, because using this technique one could theoretically move a vehicle infinitely.

EDIT - 11 edits to get it right!

Demogerg - please state WHERE in the rules it states that you MUST measure from the "direction of travel"? Page number or a quote please.

The relevant rules on how to measure with vehicles have been pointed out many times now, if you could just show where we have been wrong all these times?

ihatehumans: please state where it states "or increase", as you keep quoting this incorrectly. ALso please respond to how measuring from the centre is somehow illegial - you have failed entirely in your diagrams to account for that. Try it, see what happens!

You dont have too, but if you dont then you are just gimping yourself out of movement with regards to pivoting.

also, regardless of where you measure from, you cannot exceed the maximum movement of the vehicle because nothing allows you to. I dont care how you slice it, maximum movement is maximum movement is maximum movement.

If your vehicle has a 12" maximum movement, and somehow its 14" past its deployment zone at the end of your first movement phase assuming you cant scout move), then either you have outright cheated, or bent the rules in such a way as to make it nearly identical to cheating. There is no way around that.

@Centurion99 There is nothing flawed about the premise. You quoted the rules but arent thinking about what the rules mean...pivot on the spot is defined in the rules, one of the very few terms defined in the rules btw. Any time a vehicle turns it pivots on the spot around its center point, it doesnt wheel. So 40k is making turning an abstraction that doesnt cost a vehicle any movement.


@Demogerg There is nothing in the rules to suggest that we measure that way. We cannot start measuring until a vehicle starts to move and the rules specifically tell us that if a vehicle initially pivots that doesnt count as movement.


GW decided that turning a vehicle is not going to cost a vehicle any movement. There are systems where wheeling and turning can be limited by movement....40k does not use any such system.

This does create the situation where portions of a vehicle are going to be farther from their starting point than only the movement range of the vehicle would allow. But thats because the rules are built that way. Its a part of the movement system that GW uses in order to speed up moving.


Yes, one can use more accurate, more realistic systems. But then you are no longer playing 40k.



Sliggoth

ihatehumans wrote:It really isn't that hard to comprehend:

I'll go anti clockwise round the J of diagrams explaining why your interpretation is against what the rules say:

1st Diagram correct.

2nd Diagram correct, this is not allowed as you are measuring from 2 different points.

3rd Diagram Wrong. This is a no, you can not measure from 2 different points you are doing the same thing that you said you couldn't do in diagram 2!

4th Diagram not allowed, you are moving in a bend or wheel which is strictly forbidden. You can only move in straight lines and pivots with your tank as detailed in the tank movement rules.

5th Again wrong again you persist with the wheeled movement explicitely forbidden in the tank movement rules (tanks pivot on the spot rather than wheeling round).

So again re-draw these diagrams so that they are correct by the rules. That means you have to measure from the same point on the vehicle to the same point on the vehcile always and movement is only forwards and backwards or pivots. Then as you claim pivoting is costing movement (because the corner is moving as soon as you pivot) explain how the hell you measure that...

FlingitNow wrote:
3rd Diagram Wrong. this is a no you can not measure from 2 different points you are doing the same thing that you said you couldn't do in diagram 2!

No, its correct. All you do is rotate 180 degrees and then move.

No, its correct. All you do is rotate 180 degrees and then move.

But that is exactly what he is arguing against. If you can do that then you can pull the start sideways, pivot and move trick.

That is my point if he allows this then he has to allow the pivot trick he's arguing against he can't have it both ways as he is trying.

[quote=Sliggoth

@Demogerg There is nothing in the rules to suggest that we measure that way. We cannot start measuring until a vehicle starts to move and the rules specifically tell us that if a vehicle initially pivots that doesnt count as movement.


Sliggoth