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NO. the rule is that if a vehicle pivots ALONE then it doesnt count as movement, so by deduction if a vehicle pivots AND moves then it DOES count as movement. To clarify that that vehicles are free to pivot without losing total move distance they clarify that you are free to pivot as much as you want. NOTHING gives you ANY permission to exceed your maximum move.

the rules say to measure from the hull, the most logical way to get the most movement out of the vehicle is to measure from the point of the hull closest to the destination, any other way would skew your movement and potentially result in an illegal move.

No you are free to measure from any point as long as you measure from the SAME popint for both start and destination. The easiest most consistent way to do this is using the centre. Using methods A or B from eth original example though would both work from any starting point where as your method gives different results depending on where you measure from which should tell you something of its validity...

Demogerg wrote:No, because he is still measuring BEFORE the first pivot, not after.

Ok, how about he moves (and measures) a single planck length forward first and then does the rest?

FlingitNow wrote:

No, its correct. All you do is rotate 180 degrees and then move.

But that is exactly what he is arguing against. If you can do that then you can pull the start sideways, pivot and move trick.

That is my point if he allows this then he has to allow the pivot trick he's arguing against he can't have it both ways as he is trying.

No, because he is still measuring BEFORE the first pivot, not after.

Then he isn't using the same point to measure the start and finish point which is against the rules. How are you not getting this. If the measure before the first pivot then you measure from the front to the front in which case the Rhino has moved about 11" (assuming it is about 5" long) not 6" as the diagram claims is correct. Only if you measure after the pivot has that Rhino moved 6". So which is it has the Rhino moved 11" or are you finally agreeing the pivot trick is correct?

Fundamentally it is the only way the rules can work. You measure movement for vehciles only in straight lines forward and back as per the vehicle rules. You are not allowed to measure a wheeled turn and pivoting does not reduce your movement. You have to measure from the same point to the same point. As soon as you try to implement your method you are measuring wheeled moves, pivoting is reducing movement and/or you have to start measuring from different points start to finish and where you measure from makes a difference to how far you've moved. Our method never breaks any of the rules and is consistent no matter what point on the vehicle you measure from as long as you use the same start to finish of each section (between each pivot)...

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:No, because he is still measuring BEFORE the first pivot, not after.

Ok, how about he moves (and measures) a single planck length forward first and then does the rest?

Irrelevant, because if he exceeds his maximum movement then its an illegal move, so he would need to measure out the entire move before moving through any part of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:words

Maximum move is maximum move is maximum move. Exceeding this through pivoting is breaking the rules. Pivoting does not give you persmission to exceed your movement allowance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

@Demogerg So then lets walk through the following scenario:

Place a vehicle (rhino would be good, LR would make it easier to see...or for those of us with none of the above a playing card will still serve) on a piece of paper. Mark the corners of the vehicle on the paper...this is the premove measurement that you are suggesting is the only way to measure.

Now pivot the vehicle/ card a bit to the right. Say...20-40 degrees should work, depends on if its rhino or LR shaped a bit. Now look at the corner mark on the paper. Please notice that the mark is in FRONT of the card/ vehicle...by as much as an inch for something the shape of a LR.

According to the initial measurement camp, we can now move the LR 13" straight ahead and claim that we are only "moving" it 12".

It is absurd to measure from some starting position, because it ignores any angled movement problems.


Sliggoth

Demogerg - except you have still failed at providing a *rule* whcih states you must measure the way you keep stating.

If i choose the point to measure as the cenre of the vehicle, and end my move with that centre 12" away I *have*, by the definition of moving in the rulebook, moved 12".

the fact that another measurement, taken from another point, shows a different value is entirely irrelevant. You will in fact have at least 3 possible values - 1 greater, one less and one equal to the move. Your interpretation "requiring" you to take the highest value has no rules basis.

In other words: it is a houserule.

FlingitNow wrote:

ihatehumans wrote:It really isn't that hard to comprehend:

I'll go anti clockwise round the J of diagrams explaining why your interpretation is against what the rules say:

1st Diagram correct.

2nd Diagram correct, this is not allowed as you are measuring from 2 different points.

3rd Diagram Wrong. This is a no, you can not measure from 2 different points you are doing the same thing that you said you couldn't do in diagram 2!

4th Diagram not allowed, you are moving in a bend or wheel which is strictly forbidden. You can only move in straight lines and pivots with your tank as detailed in the tank movement rules.

5th Again wrong again you persist with the wheeled movement explicitely forbidden in the tank movement rules (tanks pivot on the spot rather than wheeling round).

So again re-draw these diagrams so that they are correct by the rules. That means you have to measure from the same point on the vehicle to the same point on the vehcile always and movement is only forwards and backwards or pivots. Then as you claim pivoting is costing movement (because the corner is moving as soon as you pivot) explain how the hell you measure that...

3rd diagram
It's not points on a base/hull it's points on the board. Otherwise you can measure from a model facing backwards and then turn it around to measure from the same point, getting an extra base worth of movement.

You do NOT measure from a point on the base/hull, you measure from a point on the board corresponding to a point on the base/hull.

As for 4th and 5th diagrams, do you know what a circle is made of? Infinitesimally small straight lines wit infinitesimally small angles... in simpler words, you move 1/12" then pivot 15* then repeat 12 times, so that at the end you have moved 12" and pivoted 180* facing the opposite direction a distance of 24 / pi inches (given by C = pi D).

Let me clear some things up:

You may only Pivot AS, or DURING your move, you measure your maximum movement BEFORE you move a unit, pivoting on the spot (without moving the vehicle at all) counts as that units 'movement' but does not count as moving the vehicle.

Show me rules where it says "A player may pivot a tank any time during the movement phase." and you can use those rules. The BRB I use has rules that explicity state that only as part of a vehicles movement may it be pivoted, but if it ONLY pivoted THEN it doesn't count as moving.

The corresponding rules from the BRB:

Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model.

As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover.

Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot).

Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move. Note that a player doesn’t have to move all (or indeed any) of his units.

If you exceed this 12" distance measured from the hull, then you have exceeded your maximum movement, no matter how you try and slice it.

Maximum move is maximum move is maximum move. Exceeding this through pivoting is breaking the rules. Pivoting does not give you persmission to exceed your movement allowance.

Given your "response" I think you are conceeding the point now.

But to persist What about measuring front corner to front corner? Actually your movement description of the bending moves equates to our movement method not yours are at each step you are measuring stopping turning and measuring again and not measuring the turning process as you claim you must do.

This is the crux of the issue do you measure the distance travelled whilst pivoting? If no you are following our method if so then you are following your method. The game then horrendously breaks trying to work out how to turn using your method, the distance moved will depend on which points you count movement from. The distance travelled will depend on whether you pivot before or after your move. Our method will produce the same measurement no matter where you measure from and whether you pivot and then move or move and then pivot...

Your method is:

a) a totally inconsistent way of determining distance moved (pivot that 180 degree rhino first and it could have moved move anywhere from 1", 6", 11" to 11.4"; assuming it is exactly a 5" by 3" rectangle).

b) logistically impossible when you start turning the tank.

Surely that should tell you something?

Ahhh, it IS a language problem! What one needs to remember here is that we have to use words are they exist in the 40k rules, also known as GWese.

Movement in 40k for vehicles is when the vehicle moves straight forward or backward. Since models have a movement limit we are thereby allowed to measure this movement to make certain that this limit is not exceeded. So we can measure as the vehicle goes forward or backward.

By the rules, pivots are NOT movement. If distance is covered by pivots, this is expressly not how we move vehicles. Other ways in which vehciles may appear to move are also not movement. Being moved from a tyranid popping oput of the ground or a BA dreadnought dragging your vehicle are two ways that come to mind. Pivots are another way in which vehicles can be moved that are not actually movement.

So we can only measure as vehicles move forward and backward. And for vehicles, we can only measure from the hull. We cannot measure from where the hull used to be, we have to measure from the hull. And for movement, we only measure as we move...which is forward or backward.

Yes, portions of a vehicle may end up at different distances from the starting point. Thats inherent in any turns, there is no way to avoid this if the vehicle turns.

Yes, the method GW uses for movement allows for this. Yes, its by no means perfect. And yes, by the rules some portions of a vehicle may end up farther from their starting point than the vehciles movement allowance. This is because of how GW defines vehicle movement.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Ahhh, it IS a language problem! What one needs to remember here is that we have to use words are they exist in the 40k rules, also known as GWese.

Movement in 40k for vehicles is when the vehicle moves straight forward or backward. Since models have a movement limit we are thereby allowed to measure this movement to make certain that this limit is not exceeded. So we can measure as the vehicle goes forward or backward.

By the rules, pivots are NOT movement. If distance is covered by pivots, this is expressly not how we move vehicles. Other ways in which vehciles may appear to move are also not movement. Being moved from a tyranid popping oput of the ground or a BA dreadnought dragging your vehicle are two ways that come to mind. Pivots are another way in which vehicles can be moved that are not actually movement.

So we can only measure as vehicles move forward and backward. And for vehicles, we can only measure from the hull. We cannot measure from where the hull used to be, we have to measure from the hull. And for movement, we only measure as we move...which is forward or backward.

Yes, portions of a vehicle may end up at different distances from the starting point. Thats inherent in any turns, there is no way to avoid this if the vehicle turns.

Yes, the method GW uses for movement allows for this. Yes, its by no means perfect. And yes, by the rules some portions of a vehicle may end up farther from their starting point than the vehciles movement allowance. This is because of how GW defines vehicle movement.


Sliggoth

but you forget, Pivots ALONE are not considered movement, you guys keep ignoring the word "alone" here. If you move any other way than just pivoting during your move, then you have not Pivoted alone, and thus it does count as movement.

Demogerg - so produce the rules stating you must measure the greatest distance. The rules only require that I measure from the hull - and I choose the centre. Show why this s agains tthe rules, this time with ACTUAL rules.

ihatehumans - sorry, no. Just no. Your argument now seems to be that you measure a point on the table, despite this being expressely against the rules for how to measure distances for models without a base.

Your last diagram is just laughable, really. I'd stop with the fake swearing as well, it isnt exactly clever and likely to earn a report or two if you continue...

Moving Vehicles in 40K:

In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance.

1) Declare the miniature you are going to move:


A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead.

2) Measure THE MAXIMUM DISTANCE YOU CAN MOVE from THE HULL OF THE VEHICLE:


A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases – this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase.

Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it.

Impassable terrain cannot be moved across or into.

2) a- To avoid moving through enemy models, impassable terrain, or difficult terrain (assuming you do not want to have to roll for it) you must follow the rules and measure the distance AROUND them:


As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than ‘wheeling’ round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move.

When moving models, it’s a common mistake to measure the distance and then place the model on the far side of the tape measure. This is incorrect, as it adds the entire length of the model’s base to the distance moved.


3) You may now move your tank to any point within the measured MAXIMIMUM distance and turn it to face ANY direction, as long as no part of the model's base is outside of the maximum distance, otherwise it will have "exceeded its maximum move":


Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot). Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

3) a- When you choose to move a unit, you may simply pivot it. In this case it will count as stationary:


Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit.

4) You now move on to the next unit you wish to move, you may NOT go back and decide to "change the move already made by a previous unit" including moving a tank which merely pivoted.


The problem CLEARLY arises as you try to move a unit TWICE, your pivoting it, then your measuring to move it. This is illegal, you measure for movement BEFORE pivoting, and you MAY pivot AS you move, not before, not after, only AS you move, ending your movement WITHIN THE MAXIMUM RANGE. You may also ONLY pivot, and then you count as stationary, but you have still declared the movement you have made for that unit (a pivot).

The RaW on this is clear, crystal as a wine glass, clearer than the desert sky, so clear it makes a vacuum seem like a fog!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...

Oh, and just so we are clear:



Are all legal moves.

Also, to clarify this line where you may have some confusion:

This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move.

Maximum move is considered as a distance measured from a point on the hull to a point on the board, as described here:

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead.

Where in this case it is between a model and a point.

Meaning that, yes, in the 40K universe, Vehicle drivers are quite good at parallel parking!

Which still, despite repeated attempts, require that you measure from any one spot.

So your argument still fails.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which still, despite repeated attempts, require that you measure from any one spot.

So your argument still fails.

"When measuring distances" you measure "the closest point of the model’s hull" to the point you wish to move to determine a "maximum move" and then move the model, you may "turn any number of times as you move" as long as your "vehicle does not exceed the maximum move" so, if you place any part of the hull outside of that 12" range, you are "exceeding the maximum move" and thus breaking the rules.

Show me EXACTLY where it says you can just measure from any spot on a vehicle and place that spot within range, it says the whole vehicle must not exceed the maximum move, not just some small part of it!



You simply can not exceed the maximum movement with pivoting. If ANY part of your vehicle manages to travel outside of the maximum range then you are making an illegal movement, at the same time, ANY part of your vehicle can be at the maximum movement range and you are making a legal move.

40K movement is about ranges, never exceeding them, and always reaching them, they are set numbers given by the rules, not abstractly determined by doing dodgy movement/pivot plays. That is WHY they made a Diagram entry showing NOT to exceed the maximum distance. Did they make a diagram showing how you are allowed to exceed it? NO! Why? BECAUSE IT'S BREAKING THE RULES!

@ ihatehumans I dont think you mean this...but it sounds as if you are argueing that a vehicle can move any distance it wants so long as it doesnt go more than its movement range from its starting point on the table.

@ Demogerg Please reread the rule. It is "Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving". This is in reference to a vehicle that does not move at all, it only pivots. This is important for the ensuing fire phase. The part about pivots later in the move is that "turns do not reduce the vehicle's move"


If a vehcile moves its entire movement allowance straight forward, by raw it can then pivot. By the other interpretation it cannot then pivot if either front corner would end up farther forward. Which the raw stirctly allows by saying that pivots do not reduce a vehicles movement.


Sliggoth

ihatehumans - stop adding words to the quote
"A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. "

The ONLY requirement is to "use the models hull...instead"

So still fail. good going though at making rules up!

You are neither measutring between two models (you are measuring how far one model moves) and even if you were that rule does not apply to models without bases.

So no, it is niot breaking the rules. It is following the rules, exactly.

Edit: LOL just spotted ANOTHER fail with your diagram - you have not folloewed the rules for movement *at all* - as you hav e not pivoted around the centre.

So not only do you not follow the rules you then make up diagrams to illustrate something not allowed by the rules anyway and seem to think it shows your point. Double fail. Amusingly so!

You haven't shown any rules supporting your point.

Do you want to know something?

There aren't any specific rules detailing precisely how you measure a vehicles movement.

It is a collection of:

1) How you measure ANYTHING

2) How you move units

3) How vehicles have different rules to units

So you can not say "that is the rules for measuring between two models" is not the rule to use. Because you have to make a Frankenstein of rules to move a vehicle.

Also, I have pivoted around the centre (or the close approximation since MS paint is not perfect) in every diagram, please indicate which one(s) you mean and I will describe the pivot in more detail.

@Sliggoth, I am unsure how you think I mean that? I am saying that you may draw a line from every point on your hull, those lines are your maximum movement distance long, they may not pass through impassable terrain, within 1" of an enemy model or through difficult terrain (unless you make a dfficult terrain test, in this case dangerous) you may then move your vehicle along any of those lines as long as it can fit (between impassable terrain, friendly models, outside of 1" of enemy models and difficult terrain, unless you roll for it) you may pivot your vehicle any number of times along that line, and you must end the vehicles move so that every part of the hull does not lay beyond the end of those lines, any part of your hull may also be at the end of any of the lines.

Simple really

ihatehumans wrote:Moving Vehicles in 40K:

In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance.

1) Declare the miniature you are going to move:


A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead.

You've quoted the wrong rules here, the vehicle rules are more specific so we use those and they say to measure from any point on the hull. Failing at this point makes you fail at the rest.

ihatehumans wrote:2) Measure THE MAXIMUM DISTANCE YOU CAN MOVE from THE HULL OF THE VEHICLE:

Measure all your points from the center and measure all end moves at the center and you get a diagram that makes more sense. But you're clearly pushing an agenda and not trying to make sense anymore.

ihatehumans wrote:2) a- To avoid moving through enemy models, impassable terrain, or difficult terrain (assuming you do not want to have to roll for it) you must follow the rules and measure the distance AROUND them:

Measure the red line and the black line and tell me if one is longer than 12", I'd be willing to bet one is. Thus you fail.

ihatehumans wrote:As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than ‘wheeling’ round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle’s move. This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move.

When moving models, it’s a common mistake to measure the distance and then place the model on the far side of the tape measure. This is incorrect, as it adds the entire length of the model’s base to the distance moved.

Bolded the part where wheels can never, even while moving, reduce your movement thus making them free at all times.

ihatehumans wrote:3) You may now move your tank to any point within the measured MAXIMIMUM distance and turn it to face ANY direction, as long as no part of the model's base is outside of the maximum distance, otherwise it will have "exceeded its maximum move":

Please show where the rules say no part of your base may move further when at all other places it says you measure from one point on a hull to the same point on the hull. Other parts may be further, but as you may not measure them you can't say anything and thus as far as the game is concerned the vehicle has moved correctly.

ihatehumans wrote:3) a- When you choose to move a unit, you may simply pivot it. In this case it will count as stationary:

Hey even a stopped clock is right once in a while, I guess you're the same. This one works fine.

ihatehumans wrote:4) You now move on to the next unit you wish to move, you may NOT go back and decide to "change the move already made by a previous unit" including moving a tank which merely pivoted.


The problem CLEARLY arises as you try to move a unit TWICE, your pivoting it, then your measuring to move it. This is illegal, you measure for movement BEFORE pivoting, and you MAY pivot AS you move, not before, not after, only AS you move, ending your movement WITHIN THE MAXIMUM RANGE. You may also ONLY pivot, and then you count as stationary, but you have still declared the movement you have made for that unit (a pivot).

The RaW on this is clear, crystal as a wine glass, clearer than the desert sky, so clear it makes a vacuum seem like a fog!

Except that you may measure from the center of your model, tap it with your finger and claim it moved on planck length forward, and then proceed as normal. So you fail, that ignores the fact that you may pivot as part of your movement and thus you are flatly wrong. Please go back and try to make a better point next post.

ihatehumans wrote:Oh, and just so we are clear:



Are all legal moves.

No the second example is illegal as you measured from two different points. You need to measure to the place on the side of the rhino not from side to front which is clearly not allowed in the rules. Your third example also has a rhino moving sideways, also illegal.

I cut the rest as he's using the wall of ignorance style of debate wherr-by he simply repeats himself a ton and hopes you go away.


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ihatehumans wrote:You haven't shown any rules supporting your point.

Do you want to know something?

There aren't any specific rules detailing precisely how you measure a vehicles movement.

It is a collection of:

1) How you measure ANYTHING

2) How you move units

3) How vehicles have different rules to units

So you can not say "that is the rules for measuring between two models" is not the rule to use. Because you have to make a Frankenstein of rules to move a vehicle.

Also, I have pivoted around the centre (or the close approximation since MS paint is not perfect) in every diagram, please indicate which one(s) you mean and I will describe the pivot in more detail.

@Sliggoth, I am unsure how you think I mean that? I am saying that you may draw a line from every point on your hull, those lines are your maximum movement distance long, they may not pass through impassable terrain, within 1" of an enemy model or through difficult terrain (unless you make a dfficult terrain test, in this case dangerous) you may then move your vehicle along any of those lines as long as it can fit (between impassable terrain, friendly models, outside of 1" of enemy models and difficult terrain, unless you roll for it) you may pivot your vehicle any number of times along that line, and you must end the vehicles move so that every part of the hull does not lay beyond the end of those lines, any part of your hull may also be at the end of any of the lines.

Simple really

Wow, you are so wrong, the book gives us rules which most of us can read clearly and that most of us use correctly to move our vehicles. They can be a bit unclear at points, but as long as you follow them strictly things work out.

You also fail to show with rules where no point of your hull may move further than the maximum distance allowed. I will take nothing less than a rules quote or you will have conceded the debate.

Except I DID quote the part of the rules that satisfies the reuqirements: that you measure from the hull (therefore ANY as no restrictions are given) and that turning does not reduce movement.

Those two items together let you know how to move. sorry if this is too difficult for you.

Your "absurd movement" deiagram is impossible: if you had moved the rhino forwards 12" and pivoted around the centre, the distance would not be 12" between but 12" - (length of rhino /2). remember this is the only bit you can measure - movement back and forth.

Norade wrote:
You've quoted the wrong rules here, the vehicle rules are more specific so we use those and they say to measure from any point on the hull. Failing at this point makes you fail at the rest.

The rules there say:

As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the
normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base
cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a
vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun
barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other
decorative elements).


So.. INSTEAD of measuring from a BASE you measure from the HULL.

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base(HULL), so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases (HULLS) as your reference points.

Norade wrote:Measure all your points from the center and measure all end moves at the center and you get a diagram that makes more sense. But you're clearly pushing an agenda and not trying to make sense anymore.

Making sense? Your arguing 'making sense' as a rules quote for 40K. You know what 'makes sense' is a fence giving the same cover save from a lascannon as a solid rock does a lasgun. Come back with actual RULES QUOTES!

Norade wrote:Measure the red line and the black line and tell me if one is longer than 12", I'd be willing to bet one is. Thus you fail.

Since MS paint does not allow me to turn a picture by smaller then 90* angles I was forced to supply the 12" red line, to emphasize the point. The red line in my picture IS longer, but the idea is that the vehicle itself would have to be slightly askew, something I can not easily portray in paint.

Norade wrote:Bolded the part where wheels can never, even while moving, reduce your movement thus making them free at all times.

Indeed they are. I have never said they weren't, in fact other have claimed you will lose a movement distance by pivoting.

Norade wrote:Except that you may measure from the center of your model, tap it with your finger and claim it moved on planck length forward, and then proceed as normal. So you fail, that ignores the fact that you may pivot as part of your movement and thus you are flatly wrong. Please go back and try to make a better point next post.

Show me WHERE in the rulebook, QUOTE and EXACT LINE from THE BRB that it says "you may measure from the center of your model" just one quote from the BRB please, in your entire post!

Norade wrote:No the second example is illegal as you measured from two different points. You need to measure to the place on the side of the rhino not from side to front which is clearly not allowed in the rules. Your third example also has a rhino moving sideways, also illegal.

Once again you are making up some rule about measuring point to point, I already showed what happens if you are allowed to move from a point to a point, it's absurd. Also, the Rhino does not move sideways, you are discounting pivoting, and you are refusing to accept what is commonly known as parallel parking, both methods used for that kind of movement.

Norade wrote:No you are free to measure from any point as long as you measure from the SAME popint for both start and destination. The easiest most consistent way to do this is using the centre. Using methods A or B from eth original example though would both work from any starting point where as your method gives different results depending on where you measure from which should tell you something of its validity...

Show me where in the BRB it mentions measuring "the SAME popint for both start and destination" anywhere at all? My method, if done correctly, gives you a set area in which you may place your vehicle as determined by it's current location, surrounding obstacles, and it's maximum movement distance. Read it carefully, it seems complicated but really isn't that difficult to understand.

Considering you didn't quote a single part of the BRB for any of your rules statements leads me to believe you simply have an opinion with no actual grounding in the rules. Any posts from now on that do not use actual quotes I will simply ignore for ease of argument

I'm going to ask everyone involved at this point to take a breath and remind themselves that they're talking about toy soldiers here. Enough with the shouting and the swearing... let's keep it civil, folks.



Meanwhile:

ihatehumans wrote: This is illegal, you measure for movement BEFORE pivoting,

Even though the tank shock rules say otherwise?

I'll let Gwar! handle this, I don't need another time out over this...

Wow, Dash's battle reports have a use besides just the batreps themselves.

As stated in that thread and the subsequent YMDC thread - I'm an Option A sort - it's the only way that makes sense within the rules.

Norade wrote:I'll let Gwar! handle this, I don't need another time out over this...

I'm not coming near this one with a 10 foot pole mate, I know it'll just end badly!

insaniak wrote:I'm going to ask everyone involved at this point to take a breath and remind themselves that they're talking about toy soldiers here. Enough with the shouting and the swearing... let's keep it civil, folks.



Meanwhile:

ihatehumans wrote: This is illegal, you measure for movement BEFORE pivoting,

Even though the tank shock rules say otherwise?

Tank shock rules explicitly detail otherwise... they are separate rules for tank shocking.

There are different rules for many things, for example with most random movement you MUST move the maximum distance, as compared to normal movement where you can move less.

To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the
spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare
how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The
vehicle must move at least at combat speed. Note that
because pivoting on the spot does not count as
moving, this is not enough for a tank shock.

Notice how it does not say "as you would for a normal move" at all. While this exemption is not proof, I take it as an indication that a tank shock is completely different. Especially since it explicitly states that the above rules are "additions and exceptions" so should be assumed to be different.

Tanks follow the normal rules for vehicles, with the
additions and exceptions given below.

**as a side note, thank you insaniak for your civil tone, please correct me if I at all address you rudely **

Gwar! wrote:

Norade wrote:I'll let Gwar! handle this, I don't need another time out over this...

I'm not coming near this one with a 10 foot pole mate, I know it'll just end badly!

Same, here. There are only so many times we can say the same things before it gets upsetting.

ihatehumans wrote:Tank shock rules explicitly detail otherwise... they are separate rules for tank shocking.

So, essentially, a vehicle limited to 12" movement can move 13" (or more, depending on actual shape) when tank shocking.

Are you putting the inconsistency there down to some characteristic of tank shocking, or just writing it off as 'one of those odd things' in the rules?



Because, to my mind, where there are two different ways being presented to read the rules, and one of those interpretations results in a related rule working in an inconsistent fashion, I start to wonder if that interpretation may not be the correct one. YMMV, obviously.

+1 to ihatehumans for making a diagram of my point several pages ago. You did a heck of a better job explaining it than I did.

Slackermagee wrote:+1 to ihatehumans for making a diagram of my point several pages ago. You did a heck of a better job explaining it than I did.

Except that his diagrams were wrong as he often measured to different points on the model and even broke his own rules once.