RAW vs RAI: Do Nemesis Falchions grant 2+ attacks?

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**DevianID**

DarknessEternal wrote:
DevianID wrote:making them different from regular power weapons.

You know what else is different than regular power weapons? Force weapons. If you're going to claim the difference between power blades and power weapons is significant, you can't also expect people to buy your force weapons are the same as power weapons line.

There's only one solution for all these weapons. They must all work the same way, whatever that way may be.

It is true that nemesis force weapons are different weapons from powerweapons. However, they ARE still 1 handed weapons. Eldar Powerblades are not 2 1 handed weapon power weapons from the BRB. They are a 0 handed bit of wargear that modifies your attack profile and allows your attacks to ignore armor saves. The argument is that a pair of nemesis falchions are 2 special 1 handed weapons, because force weapons are 1 handed weapons, and you have 2 of them, and all of this is contained in the BRB.

All the weapons follow the exact same rules on page 42 to determine what does and does not count for granting bonus cc attacks.

**Jackster**

Nowhere on the rule section of that weapon entry on the first page says Falchions are 2 Nemesis Force Weapons either nor can you buy just one Falchion, if the powerblades and Chainsabres dont count as two CCWs then neither should they.

**DevianID**

All nemesis weapons are one handed force weapons. You buy a pair of force weapons for x points. Buying a pair of one handed weapons indeed gives you 2 one handed weapons.

Also, I explained with the verbatim eldar entries, the many many various differences between chainsabers and powerblades and a pair of one handed forceweapons. Holding up chain sabers and powerblades as similar to buying a pair of 1 handed weapons is a logical fallacy.

**Grey Templar**

Falchions are Nemisis Force Weapons.

Nemisis Force Weapons are Power weapons.

power weapons are CCWs.

a model that gets Falchions gets 2 of them.

therefore, a model with apair of nemisis falchions gets +2A.

**ChrisCP**

And to bring the loop back, NF are single wargear choice/purchase - in all other instances where such an item of wargear 'counts as two CCWs' - we are told explicitly.

**nosferatu1001**

ChrisCP wrote:And to bring the loop back, NF are single wargear choice/purchase - in all other instances where such an item of wargear 'counts as two CCWs' - we are told explicitly.

Marneus Calgar

Gauntlets of Ultramar are "bought" as a single pair. SHrikes Claws are bought as a pair.

Neither mention the bonus attack for 2 CCW

Falchions do not "count as" 2 CCW, they literally ARE 2 CCW. They are *2* Force Weapons, which are 2 Power weapons whcih are 2 CCW

There is NO rules argument against this. Absolutely NONE.

Mah - you can only "use" one weapon per turn, so power blades confer 2A in total - 1 for using one of the pair, one for the double weapon bonus

**ChrisCP**

We did that before and no-one actually answered properly,

ChrisCP wrote:
1) Yep that's right, they are. (**One weapon as they are a 'set' it's not the gauntlets of ultramar if there's only 1) and don't give a bonus attack.

2) No they are in-fact two weapons but as a PF is clearly defined as a single handed CCW in the dex there's no issue there. Can you find a flachion defined as a CCW?
....
That's just it a 'flachion' does not exist. They are only ever 'used in pairs' they can not be used independantly, so one alone can not be a CCW. If it were defined at all as a CCW then yes they'd have two CCWs but as things stand a flachion is not a CCW and it will need an FAQ to right it.
Jaon SaidIm going to be civil and simply state: The only reason they are bought as a pair is so they dont get taken as single weapons, hence looking like nemesis force swords. Being bought as a pair removes the possibility of confusing, and is a defining WYSIWYG of the model. I am not saying that because the model has 2 they are counted as 2, I am saying they are counted as 2 so the model is forced to take 2 to be WYSIWYG.
....
Or they could be a weapon 'set' like a 'shardnet and impaler' but aren't two close combat weapons... Taking them as a 'single weapon' isn't possible due to the codex section restrictions, and even if taking one was possible the GK in question has no other way of gaining a bonus attack.

So I put to you. They are a pair for the rule of cool, a guy wielding two looks cool than with one. They grant a bonus attack, because they are so cool, otherwise they'd be force swords. If they'd stated grant +2 attacks we'd still be having this discussion for people wanting +3. If they'd been intended to grant +2 attacks then they would have stated 'counts as two CCW' or it will be attended to in the FAQ.

As things stand I would love for someone to show me what a 'nemesis falchion' is in the 40K Rules Universe and then justify it with Rules as being two CCWs. Powerfists are defined singularly, so are lightning claws. Flachoins are invariably wielded as a pair - otherwise they would be force swords. +5pts +1 attack not bad. Basically if people still disagree that A Falchion is not anything in a rules context, and that wargear does not need to explicitly state that it counts as two CCWs - then we will remain at this impasse until the issues is addressed by GW.

Putting the main issue aside. I have a sense or foreboding from the idea of counting anything with a plural or indication of a second item as an additional CCW. But it might give some old codexs a buff when they need it most.

**DevianID**

ChrisCP, when you get a chance read the wargear entry for Nemesis Force weapons. There, it tells you what a nemesis falchion (singular) is.

Ill reiterate. A nemesis falchion is a forceweapon with daemonbane. In addition, like all nemesis weapons, a nemesis falchion has an additional special rule. Under the heading of 'Nemesis Falchions' (not pair of Falchions) your additional special rule is that the wielder of a pair of Nemesis Falchions has +1 Attack. So you have +1 attack when using 2 Nemesis Falchions. Now turn to the army section. Here, we see that models can buy a pair of Nemesis Falchions. So, they buy 2 seperate Daemonbane Forceweapons, and they have +1 Attack for having a pair of them.

The logic is not a loop. Paired weapons existed before, in 5th edition no less. In addition, the rules are explicit that every Nemesis weapon counts as a force weapon, thus a 1 handed weapon.

Look at the Dreadknight. He has 2 Nemesis Doomfists. However, no mention is made, either in his profile or summary, that he gets the bonus for multiple CCW. Like a model with a pair (2) of Nemesis Falchions, he has 2 Nemesis Doomfists. He gets the bonus attack right, even though its not mentioned in the codex anywhere?

**nosferatu1001**

Chris - we have already defined this; all Nemesis weapons are Force weapons, and all force weapons are by definition Single Handed CCW. Until YOU find an entry stating the pair of Falchions are 2-handed, as the BRB FAQ states must be explicitly written, they remain singlehanded

And, as you are given two of them (A "pair") you have 2 single-handed CCW

There is currently no actual rules argument against the +1A/+1Bonus attack result - there is some wishlisting / supposition, but so far noone has been able to show anything lthat contradicts the above. Noone.

**ChrisCP**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chris - we have already defined this; all Nemesis weapons are Force weapons, and all force weapons are by definition Single Handed CCW. Until YOU find an entry stating the pair of Falchions are 2-handed, as the BRB FAQ states must be explicitly written, they remain singlehanded

And, as you are given two of them (A "pair") you have 2 single-handed CCW

There is currently no actual rules argument against the +1A/+1Bonus attack result - there is some wishlisting / supposition, but so far noone has been able to show anything lthat contradicts the above. Noone.

I've never said or implied that MF are two handed, just that they do not count as two single handed CCWs.
Where is the definition for NFWs that says, 'all NWF are single handed CCWs' or 'all power weapons are single handed', it would be a big assumption to enforce this view unless there is a quote that people have not provided.
As I've said, unless there is a bit attached to a single piece of wargear that states 'counts as two CCW' I'm very, very, hesitant to say anything with a plural counts as two CCW.

I've shown that any time something counts as two CCWs the entry says so.
I see an absence in the FAQs I've looked at, that would support a break of this piece of rules.

One purchases one piece of wargear 'nemesis flachions', 'they are invariable wielded as a pair' is not the same as, say, 'Shardnet and Impaler: A Shardnet and Impaler counts as two CCW'. No one has been able to show that NF count as two CCWs, because there is no rules to support this. One may suppose as there is a pair that it counts as two, but that would be an interpretation, not rules, I've shown rules that display when a single piece of wargear is intended to count as two CCWs (or two pieces of warger) the entry will include that detail. This is why it needs to be FAQ'd - I do not think that it needs to be FAQ'd, I feel the intention is clear, they provided a +1A bonus because they are a pair in the fluff, and they do not count as two CCW or the entry would not have missed that detail.

By the way, if they were two weapons or pieces of wargear, why would the wielder not be allowed to use the two additional powers in CC? "The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon’s power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn." two weapons, two lots of the weapons power.

**nosferatu1001**

BRB FAQ, as was provided abotu 10 pages ago

In the BRB FAQ ALL CCW are single handed unless otherwise specified. Nemesis weapons are Force Weapons, Force weapons are power weapons whcih are single handed CCW. So you ha ve 2 Nemesis Falchions meaning you have 2 (FOrce Weapons + bonus) meaning you have 2 (Power weapons + bonus) meaning you have 2 (single handed CCW + bonus)

Here, it doesnt "count as" 2 CCW; it IS 2 CCW. No counts as required.

Again, this has been given a million and one times in this thread.

To your fnial point - so what if they are two weapons? You can only ever *use* one, see page 42. Not to mention that you dont even need to "use" the activation of force weapon power twice - reread the rules for Nemesis weapons: ONE activation and EVERY attack made by EVERY model in that unit counts as causign ID.

**Pyriel-**

For 5/10 points they should give +2A though, and this should be FAQ'd.

This.

For the cost it has coupled with the severe disadvantage of removing the +1inv save in Cc it will never be used.
I cant see anyone ever taking such an expensive upgrade for the little it does (+1A) when there are halbeards that grant you +2I for cheaper.

**VoidAngel**

I still think that you folks arguing RAW need to be able to look at what rules and unit/gear entries mean conceptually.

GW lacks a completely unified language around such things, so getting down into the nitty gritty of the words doesn't actually serve the game very well. They're getting better, but they are not there yet.

Conceptually, each fighting limb can control a weapon in close combat. Generally, on a bipedal model - that's two. If each fighting limb has a weapon suitable for melee, that should grant a bonus attack as per the main rules. Gear entries stack with the main rules - otherwise, why make a statement at all?

Going by that, there are very few instances that are not clear. And I think it is fair to say that the above reflects game designer logic through every edition.

Thoughts?

**ChrisCP**

nosferatu1001 wrote:BRB FAQ, as was provided abotu 10 pages ago

In the BRB FAQ ALL CCW are single handed unless otherwise specified. Nemesis weapons are Force Weapons, Force weapons are power weapons whcih are single handed CCW. So you ha ve 2 Nemesis Falchions meaning you have 2 (FOrce Weapons + bonus) meaning you have 2 (Power weapons + bonus) meaning you have 2 (single handed CCW + bonus)

Here, it doesnt "count as" 2 CCW; it IS 2 CCW. No counts as required.

To your fnial point - so what if they are two weapons? You can only ever *use* one, see page 42. Not to mention that you dont even need to "use" the activation of force weapon power twice - reread the rules for Nemesis weapons: ONE activation and EVERY attack made by EVERY model in that unit counts as causign ID.

Yes the weapon is a 'Pair of flachions' otherwise one would buy both, it's one piece of wargear, one weapon. Unless there is a bit of rules saying 'it counts as two'. Please show where it says that this single piece of wargear 'counts as two CCWs', something every 'single piece' of wargear has if it's indisputably two CCWs.

Lastly it wasn't a point, it was an aside

But, unlike MC weapons "A master-crafted weapon allows the bearer to re-roll one failed roll to hit per player turn when using the weapon." Pg 98 C:SM
FW say "but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat," which shares language used in the DE codex, something I belive you supported?

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have two different special weapons that you must choose from, and as such can NEVER gain the bonus for wielding two close combat weapons.
It doesnt matter that it is a power weapon, you still have "Huskblade" and "Djinn Blade" which are special CCW.
Note that the +2A only requires you are the bearer of the Djinn Blade, not that you are wielding it. However thats expensive way to gain +1 atack overall....

But it's impotant to note that the DB entry does in fact contain both words bearer/wielder.

Oops guess we've just disproven that one~! (This was also addressed in the FAQ with aminus vitae)

**nosferatu1001**

Chris - how can i put this more plainly:

I do not need to show it "counts as 2CCW", it literally IS 2 CCW. While it is one piece of wargearm it is 2 weapons in total. Same as "Sponsons" are one piece of wargear but are phsycially 2 weapons. The same as "Gauntlets of Ultramar" ARE 2 powerfists. And so on. You have zero rules support for 1 wargear == 1 weapon argument, and plenty of occasions where that supposition is proven wrong.

This is because it is a Pair of NEMESIS falchions

NEMESIS weapons are Force WEapons
Force WEapons are power weapons
power weapons are CCW

So, you have LITERALLY got 2 CCW. No "counts as", nothing!

Shardnet and Impaler need that language, as neither are listed as CCW. A power weapons IS listed as a CCW. That is the massive difference you seem to be blind to in your requirement for the "counts as" language.

What you are asking for is something entirely un-needed. YOU Have to show that it *isnt* 2 CCW, as I have shown (along with many, many others) that is IS 2 CCW. Where is the disconnect, btw? You have not addressed this simple point directly, but kept on about "counts as" - i dont care one jot about counts as, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Also remember the FW rule is modified by the Nemesis entry, which states it effects all attacks made by everyone - BoP then kicks in to let you know you only make one test for all members of the unit. There is no functional difference between holding 2 NFW or holding 1: a succesful check makes *all* attacks ID, not one.

**DarknessEternal**

nosferatu1001 wrote:A power weapons IS listed as a CCW.

So then Powerblades and Demiklaives also get an extra attack, as they're power weapons. Therefore they are CCWs.

**nosferatu1001**

Did I say they werent?

**Grey Templar**

I belive that Powerblades and Demiklaives get the additional attack as well(naturally, demiklaives only get it when wielded as 2 blades instead of the big combined blade)

**VoidAngel**

Hmmm..just found this:

Under "Master-Crafted Weapons" Page 57 of Codex: GK

"A pair of Nemesis Falchions can only be master-crafted the once, for a single re-roll."

How does this figure into the debate, do you figure?

To me, this is supporting evidence that the designer meant Falchions to be a +1 A only, single wargear choice (sad as that makes me). I don't expect it to have any impact on the RAW argument...but I think it gives some insight.

**Kiwidru**

Well, I think we should all first realize that if anyones 20 word forum blurb could clarify this, the thread wouldn't have gone to 10 pages... Ergo let's try to delve a step deeper...

Basically the arguements (to my knowledge) comes to this:
1. The falchion's benifit comes from their ability to be a demonbane force weapon, the +1 attack mentioned is only to clairify that they do count as 2 hand weapons and follow all according rules. (this is the falchion's are wargear arguement/falchion's are bought as a single entry arguement)
2. The falchion's benifit comes from the extra attack the weapon grants, the +1 attack mentioned is in addition to the general rules for 2hw which don't need to be rehashed everytime there is a new book, or an advance in game mechanics (this is the +2 attacks arguement)
OR my personal stance: the falchion's count as 2hw AND they EACH give +1 A
(just kidding I really don't care, I would rather face the falchion's over the other upgrades anyday... Please load up on hoard killing attacks, for all those low init power armor hoard armies proliferating the game)

**ChrisCP**

nosferatu1001 wrote:I do not need to show it "counts as 2CCW", it literally IS 2 CCW. While it is one piece of wargearm it is 2 weapons in total. Same as "Sponsons" are one piece of wargear but are phsycially 2 weapons. The same as "Gauntlets of Ultramar" ARE 2 powerfists. And so on. You have zero rules support for 1 wargear == 1 weapon argument, and plenty of occasions where that supposition is proven wrong.

This is because it is a Pair of NEMESIS falchions

NEMESIS weapons are Force WEapons
Force WEapons are power weapons
power weapons are CCW

So, you have LITERALLY got 2 CCW. No "counts as", nothing!

Shardnet and Impaler need that language, as neither are listed as CCW. A power weapons IS listed as a CCW. That is the massive difference you seem to be blind to in your requirement for the "counts as" language.

What you are asking for is something entirely un-needed. YOU Have to show that it *isnt* 2 CCW, as I have shown (along with many, many others) that is IS 2 CCW. Where is the disconnect, btw? You have not addressed this simple point directly, but kept on about "counts as" - i dont care one jot about counts as, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Also remember the FW rule is modified by the Nemesis entry, which states it effects all attacks made by everyone - BoP then kicks in to let you know you only make one test for all members of the unit. There is no functional difference between holding 2 NFW or holding 1: a succesful check makes *all* attacks ID, not one.

I will move my example to Hydragauntlets, as you're saying 'two differnt names' makes a difference.

I will point out that more than once said that in the case of the gauntlets, if one was to consider them two wepons, that they state they are a powerfist, something defined within the codex. Again please show where NF are defined, each as a single item already defined in the codex. Or any indication that using them together is not how the weapon itself is used.

It is a permissive rules set - something you yourself point out quite regularly - one has to show it's two CC weapons.

Anything which hasn't been questiond before as two weapons is a poor position to base ones argument from. One doesn't have knowledge of how the community as a whole plays/feels about each instance and it hasn't been addressed in an Faq to support one side or another.

**nosferatu1001**

It doesnt factor into this at all. You only ever "use" one weapon at a time - having two master crafter thunderhammers only gives you ONE rerll, as you choose which hammer you are using and THAT hammer only has 1 reroll.

How do you reconcile your supposition with the description? The description has them attacking "lightning fast" - but in your mind "lightning fast" == "as fast as ANYONE with a pistol and CCW"?

RAW AND FLUFF AND RAI are against +1 attack (you'd never pay 5 points to lose +1 to your inv save or +2I. Never)

**Grey Templar**

it works the same with LCs.

Master crafting allows you a single reroll in CC and wielding 2 master crafted weapons doesn't give you 2 rerolls.

**VoidAngel**

Please note the words, "makes me sad" and "don't expect it to affect the RAW."

It's not like I want it to be supporting evidence, just offering it up for consideration. I agree with your analysis, but I want to be fair and consider all the data.

I guess what it comes down to is: "No way I'm putting these things on models before the FAQ comes out." Because it they are +1 Attack and only ever + 1 Attack, there's no way they are worth it relative to the other choices. And hey, that means I don't have to buy many of the new models. There's a silver power armored lining after all!

**ChrisCP**

nosferatu1001 wrote:It doesnt factor into this at all. You only ever "use" one weapon at a time - having two master crafter thunderhammers only gives you ONE rerll, as you choose which hammer you are using and THAT hammer only has 1 reroll.

How do you reconcile your supposition with the description? The description has them attacking "lightning fast" - but in your mind "lightning fast" == "as fast as ANYONE with a pistol and CCW"?

RAW AND FLUFF AND RAI are against +1 attack (you'd never pay 5 points to lose +1 to your inv save or +2I. Never)

Sorry, what 'doesn't factor into this at all'? Are you referring back to a point we laid to rest already, by my own admission? Please address the points in my last posts and stop raising something I brought up as an aside to resolve the Djinn Blades must be the weapon one's using in CC to gain extra attacks situation - it's actually unrelated to our discussion, an 'aside'.

If you insist on bringing your argument down to fluff, then I'll point out "They are invariably wielded as a pair' they can't actually be used individual weapons, they are one weapon.

But I would much prefer if you addressed the rules.

**VoidAngel**

I think he was referring to my post about the Master-Crafted Weapons rules.

**ChrisCP**

Ah we'd already done a similar aspect of MC weapons a little bit ago, sorry

**Jidmah**

VoidAngel wrote:Come on man! It says they "are twin power weapons". ARE. Are we going to argue what "is" is?

Where does it say that a weapon must be held in the hand? Can you please point that out to me? Does a tyranid warrior have to hold his bonesword in his hand? Oh, wait, it IS his hand...now what? The intent is obvious. There is no need to make things so difficult.

Note to self: Convert ork boy to have his choppa attached to its helmet.

**Magister187**

Chris, how have you continued to ignore the connection of the Nemesis Force Weapons rules in the codex, and its relation to descriptions of force weapons and power weapons in the BRB. You keep bringing essentially unrelated strawman gack like the wording on Hydra Gauntlets (which need the descriptor of being two close combat weapons, as no one would otherwise know wtf a Hydra Gauntlet was).

You purchase a PAIR of Nemesis Force Falchions.
Falchions, in the GK codex are not listed as a pair in the wargear section. They do, however, mention in the fluff that they are ALWAYS used as a pair, ie. two of those weapons do exist, and while theoretically you could wield just one, this is almost never done. (ie. this is why they can't be bought separately).
Under Nemesis Weapons, it tells you that they are Force Weapons. ie, the ones in the BRB.
In the BRB, you find the description of force weapons, which tells you they are power weapons.
Power weapons are then defined.

It is absolutely clearly laid out that you now have a model wielding two nemesis force falchions, which are power weapons. What do models typically get when wielding 2 Power Weapons? an extra attack, per the assault rules in the BRB. Do Deathcult Assassins have a blurb about them having +1 Attacks from their two power weapons? Do inquisitors and warrior acolytes have mention that their Pistol and CCW give them +1 attack? No, because those are in the basic rules. NFF DO have that mention, that wielding a pair of them gives you +1 Attack (as in the attack characteristic, just like +1 Strength or +1 Weapon Skill). The BRB then tells you that since it is wielding 2 weapons, they get an extra attack in the assault phase. 2 different rules, 2 different affects, same model.

This. Is. Not. That. Hard.

**Grey Templar**

ChrisCP wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:I do not need to show it "counts as 2CCW", it literally IS 2 CCW. While it is one piece of wargearm it is 2 weapons in total. Same as "Sponsons" are one piece of wargear but are phsycially 2 weapons. The same as "Gauntlets of Ultramar" ARE 2 powerfists. And so on. You have zero rules support for 1 wargear == 1 weapon argument, and plenty of occasions where that supposition is proven wrong.

This is because it is a Pair of NEMESIS falchions

NEMESIS weapons are Force WEapons
Force WEapons are power weapons
power weapons are CCW

So, you have LITERALLY got 2 CCW. No "counts as", nothing!

Shardnet and Impaler need that language, as neither are listed as CCW. A power weapons IS listed as a CCW. That is the massive difference you seem to be blind to in your requirement for the "counts as" language.

What you are asking for is something entirely un-needed. YOU Have to show that it *isnt* 2 CCW, as I have shown (along with many, many others) that is IS 2 CCW. Where is the disconnect, btw? You have not addressed this simple point directly, but kept on about "counts as" - i dont care one jot about counts as, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Also remember the FW rule is modified by the Nemesis entry, which states it effects all attacks made by everyone - BoP then kicks in to let you know you only make one test for all members of the unit. There is no functional difference between holding 2 NFW or holding 1: a succesful check makes *all* attacks ID, not one.

I will move my example to Hydragauntlets, as you're saying 'two differnt names' makes a difference.

I will point out that more than once said that in the case of the gauntlets, if one was to consider them two wepons, that they state they are a powerfist, something defined within the codex. Again please show where NF are defined, each as a single item already defined in the codex. Or any indication that using them together is not how the weapon itself is used.

It is a permissive rules set - something you yourself point out quite regularly - one has to show it's two CC weapons.

Anything which hasn't been questiond before as two weapons is a poor position to base ones argument from. One doesn't have knowledge of how the community as a whole plays/feels about each instance and it hasn't been addressed in an Faq to support one side or another.

a Hydragauntlet is a single CCW that gives the bearer D6 bonus attacks instead of the usual one when used with another CCW. a Wytch buys a single Hydragauntlet IIRC to go with the models existing CCW.