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Grey Templar wrote:Well, Demiklaives sure wouldn't give you an extra attack as they already do in their rules.

Not by the logic the pro-2 Attack Falchions group are using.

Demiklaives should always give +1 attack more than what it says, whether you're using the extra attack or extra strength options. They are more than one close combat weapon after all, just like Falchions.

Demiklaives have 2 profiles.


1 is a single 2 handed weapon and the other is 2 blades.

the Single weapon gives you a Str bonus, the 2 blades give you +2 attacks.


you get the bonus aready.

Grey Templar wrote:Demiklaives have 2 profiles.


1 is a single 2 handed weapon and the other is 2 blades.

the Single weapon gives you a Str bonus, the 2 blades give you +2 attacks.


you get the bonus aready.

That's exactly the same as saying one already receives the bonus from NF btw.

ChrisCP wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Demiklaives have 2 profiles.


1 is a single 2 handed weapon and the other is 2 blades.

the Single weapon gives you a Str bonus, the 2 blades give you +2 attacks.


you get the bonus aready.

That's exactly the same as saying one already receives the bonus from NF btw.

no its not.


now, if Demiklaives said, the wielder of Demiklaives gains +1Str and then went on to say that they have 2 options of wielding them. as a single handed weapon with +2Str, or 2 CCWs with +1A. the single handed weapon would give a total of +3Str(1 for being a Demiklaive, 2 for being used 2 handed) the 2 CCWs would be +1A and +1 Str.




when i said you get the bonus already i meant Demiklaives get +2A for the same reasons the Falchions do.


Falchions give the wielder +1A. the wielder of Nemisis Falchions always uses 2 of them, therefore he also gets a bonus attack for using 2 hand weapons.

..So the wielders of Demis always receive +2 attacks, and is using two of them, so receives a bonus attack for two fo the same SCCW...

(Gosh I dislike wireless sometimes)

The wielder of the demiklaives only recieves +2A when using them as 2 CCWs.


When wielded as a single blade they give the Str bonus(the 2 weapons become 1 blade so arn't 2 CCW anymore)


for reference as to how this works look at Logan Grimnar's ax.

it is a CCW that has 2 options for how to wield it. either as a PF or a frost blade.


the Demiklaives are a special type of 2 CCWs that have 2 options for how to use them. either as 2 CCWs or as a single CCW. both ways have special rules.




Falchions are way simpler. they are a special type of CCW that gives the bearer +1A. because there are 2 of them they give a total of +2A.

Yes and as I'm wielding them as two of the same SCCW then I also recive the +1 bonus for that, just as you are saying for NF.

Very well. you can have the bonus attack as it seems to be the rules.


so Demiklaives actually give +3A when used as 2 blades(no bonus attacks when used as a single weapon)

2ChrisCP
its meaningless... its GK they are elite, so normal rules doesn't work for them.. so they get +2 attacks with falchions and others get 1 less attack with something alike. Their vehicles psykers, but can't be targeted by stuff that target psykers... because they psykers only when they want.


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Grey Templar wrote:so Demiklaives actually give +3A when used as 2 blades(no bonus attacks when used as a single weapon)

they don't have any bonus attacks when in "Huge-blade" mode.

penek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:so Demiklaives actually give +3A when used as 2 blades(no bonus attacks when used as a single weapon)

they don't have any bonus attacks when in "Huge-blade" mode.

Thats what i said

note bolded print


i think the main reason people are getting worked up is that they missed the hidden bonus attacks in those previous codexs, but the GK players were actually perceptive enough to find it in theirs.

GKs have also changed the most as far as their Structure and Wargear is concerned since their previous codex so everyone was analyzing the codex in detail. the DE codex got alot of new toys, but many changes were subtle and so got missed.

Demiklaves are not a pair of weapons. Demiklaves have an 's' at the end of the word, but that does not mean that you have a pair (2) demiklaves. You DO have a pair of falchions, however, so you have 2 falchions.

I dont know what the writer intended, and I eagerly await the FAQ. I do know that here, a model has 2 daemonbane force weapons. Thus the BRB grants a bonus attack. In addition, under the nemesis weapon rules, it states that all nemesis weapons have an additional rule. The only rule listed for Nemesis weapons is that when you have a pair of falchions you get +1 attack. So we have a special rule saying +1 attack for a pair, and the BRB saying bonus attack for a pair. The bonuses are not exclusive.

As for the eldar weapons...
A model with chainsabers has +1 attack and rerolls all to-hit and to-wound rolls. In addition, it is implied that chainsabers count as a pistol weapon.

Now, you must replace 2 ccw weapons for chainsabers on an exarch. This leaves you with 1 weapon, chainsabers, that most likely count as a twin linked pistol (though they dont have the pistol rule explicitly, it is implied). You do not replace your claw+pistol for a PAIR of chainsabers.

Powerblades: "Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points." Powerblades are also demonstrated to be purchaced SINGLY, not in a PAIR.

So both Powerblades AND Chainsabers are purchased singly, not in pairs, AND their special rules are very different than a PAIR of nemesis force falchions. Using powerblades, klaves, and chainsabers to illustrate your point about nemesis force falchions is the defination of a strawman argument, as you hold up for an example to prove your point an item that is only superficially similar, but not even close to identical.

As a final note, I did kick around for balance purposes the effect of falchions granting a total of +2 attacks over a base guy. The results are that on terminators, versus halberds or force swords, the charger wins the combat. If neither side charges, then halberds beat falchions and falchions beat force swords.

Versus Lclaw termies of the vanillia variety, without hammerhand then even on the charge lclaw termies do more damage than falchion termies. With hammerhand active, the falchion termies have to assault to eventually win combat.

Versus vanilla THSS termies, again falchion termies need both hammerhand to go off AND to get the charge in order to beat THSS termies, just like Lclaws.

Without the +2 attacks, falchions would never make their points back compared to the other grey knight weapons, and would not even beat vanillia termies (either variety) on the charge.

While the statistics dont make the rules, I would hope that the statistics would at least be convincing that +2 attacks is not at all overpowered for termies. In fact, +2 attacks just barely puts the falchions on par with vanilla termies, WITH hammerhand going off, by making the side that gets the charge the one with the advantage (the way it should be IMHO). Without +2 attacks, the elite GK termies are never better than their vanilla brethren in CC.

DevianID wrote:Demiklaves are not a pair of weapons. Demiklaves have an 's' at the end of the word, but that does not mean that you have a pair (2) demiklaves. You DO have a pair of falchions, however, so you have 2 falchions.

go and recheck all last SMurf codexes, BA especially - you not find any assault termies with PAIR of LC's ... you find Assault Terminators that have "Lighting Claws"

Grey Templar wrote:
i think the main reason people are getting worked up is that they missed the hidden bonus attacks in those previous codexs, but the GK players were actually perceptive enough to find it in theirs.

People did notice, that's why this is a problem. The previous zeitgeist was that such weapons provided no bonuses over what they specifically stated.

Well, i sure didn't notice anything like it when the DE codex came out.


and a model with Falchions is clearly wielding 2 weapons while the Demiklaive rules are kinda wierd.

DevianID wrote:Demiklaves are not a pair of weapons. Demiklaves have an 's' at the end of the word, but that does not mean that you have a pair (2) demiklaves. You DO have a pair of falchions, however, so you have 2 falchions.

I dont know what the writer intended, and I eagerly await the FAQ. I do know that here, a model has 2 daemonbane force weapons. Thus the BRB grants a bonus attack. In addition, under the nemesis weapon rules, it states that all nemesis weapons have an additional rule. The only rule listed for Nemesis weapons is that when you have a pair of falchions you get +1 attack. So we have a special rule saying +1 attack for a pair, and the BRB saying bonus attack for a pair. The bonuses are not exclusive.

As for the eldar weapons...
A model with chainsabers has +1 attack and rerolls all to-hit and to-wound rolls. In addition, it is implied that chainsabers count as a pistol weapon.

Now, you must replace 2 ccw weapons for chainsabers on an exarch. This leaves you with 1 weapon, chainsabers, that most likely count as a twin linked pistol (though they dont have the pistol rule explicitly, it is implied). You do not replace your claw+pistol for a PAIR of chainsabers.

Powerblades: "Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points." Powerblades are also demonstrated to be purchaced SINGLY, not in a PAIR.

So both Powerblades AND Chainsabers are purchased singly, not in pairs, AND their special rules are very different than a PAIR of nemesis force falchions. Using powerblades, klaves, and chainsabers to illustrate your point about nemesis force falchions is the defination of a strawman argument, as you hold up for an example to prove your point an item that is only superficially similar, but not even close to identical.

As a final note, I did kick around for balance purposes the effect of falchions granting a total of +2 attacks over a base guy. The results are that on terminators, versus halberds or force swords, the charger wins the combat. If neither side charges, then halberds beat falchions and falchions beat force swords.

Versus Lclaw termies of the vanillia variety, without hammerhand then even on the charge lclaw termies do more damage than falchion termies. With hammerhand active, the falchion termies have to assault to eventually win combat.

Versus vanilla THSS termies, again falchion termies need both hammerhand to go off AND to get the charge in order to beat THSS termies, just like Lclaws.

Without the +2 attacks, falchions would never make their points back compared to the other grey knight weapons, and would not even beat vanillia termies (either variety) on the charge.

While the statistics dont make the rules, I would hope that the statistics would at least be convincing that +2 attacks is not at all overpowered for termies. In fact, +2 attacks just barely puts the falchions on par with vanilla termies, WITH hammerhand going off, by making the side that gets the charge the one with the advantage (the way it should be IMHO). Without +2 attacks, the elite GK termies are never better than their vanilla brethren in CC.

Thank you for having the time to post the argument I have been brimming to make while reading this whole thread. Your points are absolutely the salient points of this discussion, including the specific wording on the wargear entry, the lack of the same (not similar, similar doesn't count) wording on other wargear purchases besides lightning claws; and lastly, the balance issues associated with the two interpretations: Either A) completely underpowered and uncompetitive option for all the units who can take it; or B) On par with both other options available in the same codex AND with other similar units in other codices.

Part of the problem (strictly from a balance perspective) is that it's not just Terminators you can put the things on.

Purifiers, already the best unit in the 'dex IMHO - become 4 attacks standing there, 5 on the charge!

I fielded 3 squads of them last week, but they never got into combat for me to see how they'd do. They SHOT everything to death first!

From a rules perspective...there's no argument. Just for a moment, think about the thought process of the designer. If you have an atom of imagination...it went a little like this:
"OK, we have guys with one long pointy force thing. Lets give them an initiative bonus. We have guys with a Force Sledge-O-Matic...they get STR...and..um...speed vs. Demons. Makes sense. Let's see...what else...ok, the basic weapon. We'll make that a sword. Swords are cool. It's a force weapon. Hmmm...needs something else...oh! How about a parry rule! That hasn't been around since 2nd edition! Er...because it made things take forever...*sigh*...ah, just make it a save bonus. Fine. Now, what about this idea for a guy with a weapon in each hand? Hmm..two weapons. Ok, you buy them as a pair...and...that's +1 attack...but they are quick, and lighter than Lightning Claws...so...they...confer an attack inherently! Cool. Done."

The models have two weapons. They are described as two weapons, fast, etc. Just because you label that 'fluff' doesn't mean you can ignore it when you try to interpret a vaguely written rule. I think you have to factor in what the designer was LIKELY to be thinking. It's not hard to figure out what someone else is thinking - you do it every day.

DevianID wrote:
As for the eldar weapons...
A model with chainsabers has +1 attack and rerolls all to-hit and to-wound rolls. In addition, it is implied that chainsabers count as a pistol weapon.

Now, you must replace 2 ccw weapons for chainsabers on an exarch. This leaves you with 1 weapon, chainsabers, that most likely count as a twin linked pistol (though they dont have the pistol rule explicitly, it is implied). You do not replace your claw+pistol for a PAIR of chainsabers.

Powerblades: "Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points." Powerblades are also demonstrated to be purchaced SINGLY, not in a PAIR.

So both Powerblades AND Chainsabers are purchased singly, not in pairs, AND their special rules are very different than a PAIR of nemesis force falchions. Using powerblades, klaves, and chainsabers to illustrate your point about nemesis force falchions is the defination of a strawman argument, as you hold up for an example to prove your point an item that is only superficially similar, but not even close to identical.

Chainsabres are two chainswords which also comes with gauntlet mounted pistols. The Exarch replaces his pistol and normal sabre for them. It says in the description that powerblades are two power weapons, which are fix to forarm so you dont lose any weapons for it. (If you ask me I think the Eldar Codex was a lot better at dealing with these things than the GK one)

The "pair" thing is a matter of wording, there are plenty of places where lightning claws are simply refer to as "Lightning Claws" or they are bought one at a time, but we assume they mean the same thing.

The problem with the entry for Falchions is that they're headed in the wargear section as just 'Falchions' while you take a pair of them when equipping your models.

Which doesnt alter that a "Falchion" is a power weapon, RAW, and you take a pair of them. The Heading is entirely irrelevant there.....

DevianID wrote:Powerblades: "Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points." Powerblades are also demonstrated to be purchaced SINGLY, not in a PAIR.

Jackster already wrecked your argument on Chainsabres, so I'll just wreck your argument on Powerblades.

Codex wrote:Powerblades are twin power weapons fitted to the forearms, enabling the wearer to use both hands freely. Powerblades confer +1 A and ignores armour saves.

It's actually the Eldar weapons which have a bonus not explicitly stated as for the pair, so I honestly don't understand where this argument sprung from. In fact, while the Falchion explicitly states what you get for wielding a pair, let's have a new argument;

Eldar Powerblades offer +1 attack per powerblade and is a single handed special close combat weapon purchased as a pair. Subsequently, logically, the Warp Spider Exarch gains +3 attacks - one for each powerblade and one extra for having two special close combat weapons.

No, I'm not serious, but if the argument for Falchions are serious, that's the kindred outcome - the Warp Spider Exarch is suddenly a rather good melee model.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Which doesnt alter that a "Falchion" is a power weapon, RAW, and you take a pair of them. The Heading is entirely irrelevant there.....

Actually, they are force weapons, which "have the same effect as power weapons".

I went to my local black shirt and discussed this situation in length with him. He came to the conclusion that until there is a FAQ on the subject the total attack for this weapon to be used in combat is +1A and +1A only.

That is how it will be played in his store until an FAQ states otherwise.

go and recheck all last SMurf codexes, BA especially - you not find any assault termies with PAIR of LC's ... you find Assault Terminators that have "Lighting Claws"

Dont worry, i did. Shrike. 'Pair' of master crafted claws that also grant rending. No mention anywhere about the bonus for wielding a pair of lightning claws. Yet he has 2 lightning claws, and 2 claws give you a bonus attack. Shrike has a 'pair' of something, with special rules. Falchions are a 'pair' of something, with special rules. In both cases, no mention of having the 2 ccw bonus is in the codex, yet thanks to the BRB we can claim that a model with 2 identical special close combat weapons gets a bonus attack.

jackster says "Chainsabres are two chainswords"
Sadly this is wrong. Neither the words two or chainswords are in the writing for chainsabres. They are NOT 2 chainswords, they are not chainswords, and there is not two of them, if they were I would not have stated my argument as I did.

As for powerblades, powerblades have fluff telling you they are powerweapons... twin ones at that, grafted to your arms I like to think Guyver style. HOWEVER, powerblades sadly are not even power weapons. They do ignore armor saves, but only have the power weapon description in the fluff. If powerblades were a power weapon it would use a hand, by the way.

As an aside, L Claws have many micro powerweapons on a single claw. That too is fluff, and does not state you are armed with multiple power weapons with a single claw.

Adam LongWalker wrote:I went to my local black shirt and discussed this situation in length with him. He came to the conclusion that until there is a FAQ on the subject the total attack for this weapon to be used in combat is +1A and +1A only.

That is how it will be played in his store until an FAQ states otherwise.

This is almost entirely irrelevant (Is there a difference between blackshirts and redshirts?), he has no authority to make rulings other than in his own store, so it doesnt affect anyone here.

Jaon wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:I went to my local black shirt and discussed this situation in length with him. He came to the conclusion that until there is a FAQ on the subject the total attack for this weapon to be used in combat is +1A and +1A only.

That is how it will be played in his store until an FAQ states otherwise.

This is almost entirely irrelevant (Is there a difference between blackshirts and redshirts?), he has no authority to make rulings other than in his own store, so it doesnt affect anyone here.

The lenght of time since their last shower

Sorry GW staff

[quote=DevianID

As for powerblades, powerblades have fluff telling you they are powerweapons... twin ones at that, grafted to your arms I like to think Guyver style. HOWEVER, powerblades sadly are not even power weapons. They do ignore armor saves, but only have the power weapon description in the fluff. If powerblades were a power weapon it would use a hand, by the way.

VoidAngel, did you bother to read the rest of the rule? I will quote the rest.

"Powerblades are twin power weapons fitted to the forearms, enabling the wearer to use both hands freely. Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points."

Now, is the model armed with 2 one handed powerweapons?

Come on man! It says they "are twin power weapons". ARE. Are we going to argue what "is" is?

Where does it say that a weapon must be held in the hand? Can you please point that out to me? Does a tyranid warrior have to hold his bonesword in his hand? Oh, wait, it IS his hand...now what? The intent is obvious. There is no need to make things so difficult.

Nowhere does it state they count as single handed weapons in either the codex or the BRB. Seeing that's it's a completely new weapon the BRB being an older source for rules cannot adequately account for this particular case. We can look for precedences set in older codices but they do not necessarily apply.

Void angel, think about it. You are saying that the powerblades should grant the bonus for using 2 of the same 1 handed weapons. In the same sentence you mention that powerblades 'say' they are powerweapons, it also says they use 0 hands. The bonus for 2 ccw is not compatible.

Read page 42, under 'Fighting with 2 single handed weapons.' Your argument is that powerblades falls under the subheading 'Two of the same special weapon' but you dont qualify as they are not 2 single handed weapons. As I said, powerblades are not even powerweapons as defined in the BRB, as those are 1 handed. The powerblades specifically say they are 0 handed, making them different from regular power weapons.

PS: I remember powerblades from before this codex, where you would put them on Harlequin solitares, while keeping your hands open for even more ccw weapons. Man he was a brute!

DevianID wrote:making them different from regular power weapons.

You know what else is different than regular power weapons? Force weapons. If you're going to claim the difference between power blades and power weapons is significant, you can't also expect people to buy your force weapons are the same as power weapons line.

There's only one solution for all these weapons. They must all work the same way, whatever that way may be.