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+1Attack /= BONUS attack

Guess what 2 CCW gives you. Hint: not the former.

Until the rules state otherwise, you get +2A, 1 for the special rule and 1 bonus attack for 2 CCW from having 2 power weapons.

Seriously - the fluff has them attacking far faster than normal. Well, according to some "faster than normal" == "like any schmuck with a power weapon and pistol"

Oh wait, thats not faster. Thats the same. Sigh

Look through the codexes. +10 points is standard fare for a sergeant model to gain power weapon for his 2 basic attacks. For stronger (PA) sergeants it's not uncommon with +15 points.

Here we're talking about a model that gets an additional force weapon attack at +10 points. Not at all unreasonable. Now, you're only allowed to make the single force weapon check, but each additional attack makes you more likely to use it. +2 force weapon attacks for mere +10 points sounds insanely strong. (Plus it'd have ramifications on how other codexes are played)

akean also brings up a very good example where +1 power weapon attack costs exactly +10 points, albeit from a 4th edition codex.


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Now, here's another leading question: can these models use a normal force weapon with a pistol?

If they can, then having +2 attacks from a considerably more expensive upgrade is not unreasonable. If a force weapon might as well be or is two-handed, on the other hand...

Mahtamori - yet 10 points to LOSE +1 inv save on your terminators to gain 1 attack makes NO sense whatsoever, points wise

RAW is clear, FLUFF is clear (for once!) so why the problem?

If it were as clear as you seem to think, I don't think this giant thread would be here...

my guess is that the people who think it doesn't give 2 attacks don't want to be on the recieving end of those attacks.

Slinky wrote:If it were as clear as you seem to think, I don't think this giant thread would be here...

No, the thread is here because people try to ignore the rules in favour of their perceived ideas of what the rules should be saying.

The rules in this case are very, very simple. You havea pair of power weapons that give you +1Attack. they are 2 CCW so you get a bonus attack

REALLY simple

nosferatu1001 wrote:Mahtamori - yet 10 points to LOSE +1 inv save on your terminators to gain 1 attack makes NO sense whatsoever, points wise

RAW is clear, FLUFF is clear (for once!) so why the problem?

That's +5 points to lose +1 inv to gain +1A. +10 points is on the models that doesn't give up anything.

akeon nailed it in my opinion, with the Mirror Swords. No one is ignoring the rules, the rules are badly written and can be differently interpretated.

If a pair of Falcions grants + 1 attack, then thats what a PAIR does.

No it is what Falchions do. Not what a pair do they are never referred to as a pair in their wargear section. The +1 attack is for weilding 1 or more falchions. Thus weilding 2 falchions grants +1A plus another +1A for being double armed.

This is the difference between Falchions and the other wargear you have mentioned. Falchions have an entry and are then purchased as a pair. Your examples have their entry and are purchased as per their entry. The entry for falchions makes no mention of them being a pair, that only comes from the purchasing option. Sop just like purchasing a pair of lightening claws you gain +1 attack alongside any other bonuses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Look through the codexes. +10 points is standard fare for a sergeant model to gain power weapon for his 2 basic attacks. For stronger (PA) sergeants it's not uncommon with +15 points.

Here we're talking about a model that gets an additional force weapon attack at +10 points. Not at all unreasonable. Now, you're only allowed to make the single force weapon check, but each additional attack makes you more likely to use it. +2 force weapon attacks for mere +10 points sounds insanely strong. (Plus it'd have ramifications on how other codexes are played)

akean also brings up a very good example where +1 power weapon attack costs exactly +10 points, albeit from a 4th edition codex.

Look at standard codexes Thunder hammers and powerfists are 25-30 points, here the daemon hammer (which is superior) is a 5 point upgrade compared to the 10 points you are paying for the falchions. Double strength or +1 attack in every other incidence in every other codex you pay far more for double strength than for 1 extra attack... Surely that tells you within the confides of this codex that the Falchiosn MUST do more than be +1 attack.

Very good point right there.

More over. Purifiers have 2 attacks and cleansing flame AND the ability to take twice the special weapons FOR HALF THE PRICE! And they are 24 points, as opposed to Strike squads being 20ppm. This leads us to believe that Falchions give 2+ attacks, because otherwise purifiers would be 30 points each.

Moreover, Halberds are 2+ ini. Thats an insane boost, and they are half the cost of something that supposedly adds one attack. That doesnt sound right does it?

FlingitNow wrote:
No it is what Falchions do. Not what a pair do they are never referred to as a pair in their wargear section. The +1 attack is for weilding 1 or more falchions. Thus weilding 2 falchions grants +1A plus another +1A for being double armed.

Not wanting to be too picky but the wargear section does indeed call them a pair I'll quote the book

"A wielder of a pair of Nemesis falchions has +1 attack"

Now I'm on your side here i think it's 2 bonus attacks for falchions it makes sense really the wording to me reads that a model with them receives +1 to their attack characteristic and it's makes no mention to multiple CCW therefore we follow the rules as stated in the rule book which state model with 2 single handed close combat weapons receive an additional attack in close combat which we know a pair of falchions are as they are as stated in the codex a pair which is 2.

Any way that's just the way I read it.

Grey Templar wrote:my guess is that the people who think it doesn't give 2 attacks don't want to be on the recieving end of those attacks.

Actually, I just want my Demiklaives and Powerblades to get an extra attack too. Chainsabers aren't used, so no one cares about them.

Either way, these 4 weapons all work the same way.

Well, Demiklaives sure wouldn't give you an extra attack as they already do in their rules.

Grey Templar wrote:my guess is that the people who think it doesn't give 2 attacks don't want to be on the recieving end of those attacks.

If the GW would just make it clear that it gives 2 Attacks instead of 1 like Mirrorswords, this thread wont be needed.
I'd go with 2 Attacks, but there's the wording of Chainsabres and Powerblades... But the Eldar Codex is pretty old, so I am not sure if that counts for anything in this case.
RAI, hard to argue, 5 pts for 1 extra attack instead of other option seems bad, but it's not like sub-optimal options never appear in a codex.
Fluff, doesnt matter when it comes to actual gameplay...

If you want a newer codex, have a look at the Dark Eldar codex. All of the paired weapons explicitly state that they count as an extra hand weapon, and in the case of the Hydra Gauntlets that the +1 bonus is replaced with +d6.

Given that there's no rules for "A Nemesis Falchion" only for "A Pair of Nemesis Falchions" and that the rules don't explicitly state they count as having an extra hand weapon then they don't. On the basis they aren't explicitly stated as having two weapons in the rules, they don't technically have two weapons and so don't qualify for the two weapon bonus attack.

Btw last mention of PAIR lc's was in SM vanilla codex) all ones after that say claws, and when you switching weapons you switch each hand separately.

Jackster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:my guess is that the people who think it doesn't give 2 attacks don't want to be on the recieving end of those attacks.

If the GW would just make it clear that it gives 2 Attacks instead of 1 like Mirrorswords, this thread wont be needed.
I'd go with 2 Attacks, but there's the wording of Chainsabres and Powerblades... But the Eldar Codex is pretty old, so I am not sure if that counts for anything in this case.
RAI, hard to argue, 5 pts for 1 extra attack instead of other option seems bad, but it's not like sub-optimal options never appear in a codex.
Fluff, doesnt matter when it comes to actual gameplay...

Forgive me, but I can't find chainsabres or powerblades anywhere. What page is this wargear option listed? I'm guessing codex: eldar from the context, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:Nevermind, found it.

I would say yes, they get +2 as well, depending on how you argue it. The upgrade option states that you can replace both of your weapons with chainsabers. I could very easily assume that means 2 of them, and would allow +1, and the +1 for two CCWs.

Powerblades listed as i remember in Warp Spiders section

Chainsabres and Powerblades are from Codex: Eldar. Check the Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders entries respectively. Contrast them with Mirrorblades from the Howling Banshees entry.

I think the _+1 attack is intending to point out that it is in fact only an additional CCW based on this "A Pair of Nemesis Falchions" ... unfortunatly not a "special" CCW ie: +2 ini etc.

really for now its going to boil down to whom your playing as to how it will be interpreted.

I didn't see this so I'll add it ...
the said weapon is often the most or second most expensive weapon within the loadout options. in other words could be an indicator that it does indeed grant a +2 (fingers cross) esp. with ini. 4

the hali's give +2 ini
the Hammer = thunder @ ini. !!!
stave = 2++ in CCW

all this placed side by side, then slide in the point cost ... makes it really look like we are really gaining a +2 attack

ohh I don't remember ever seeing that termies can deep strike, but we know they can.

FAQ needed sort of

Hammer go by ini only vs demons\psykers - no?

penek wrote:Hammer go by ini only vs demons\psykers - no?

No. But since almost everyone in the codex has psyk out grenades, Daemons and psykers will be striking at I1 anyway.

Nope ... always based on ini. true they shall

Fafnir wrote:

penek wrote:Hammer go by ini only vs demons\psykers - no?

No. But since almost everyone in the codex has psyk out grenades, Daemons and psykers will be striking at I1 anyway.

It's ini 1, but in addition, it's at normal initiative if it's being wielded by the dreadknight.

Then you need go and read it better. its strike by ini only on Dread Knight.

damn I can't read ... Thanks!

And about blahblah Halberds +2Ini why i must lose +1 to invul(that not all models have) and get just one attack at 4Ini.. maybe you forgot that GK can get Ini10 ? And two force weapon attacks at 10\5 points is too much imho

penek wrote:And about blahblah Halberds +2Ini why i must lose +1 to invul(that not all models have) and get just one attack at 4Ini.. maybe you forgot that GK can get Ini10 ? And two force weapon attacks at 10\5 points is too much imho

With all the psychic defense out there, think of the halberd as insurance.

I voted no, because 2+ means '2 or more'. They certainly don't give you 2 or more attacks...

They might give you +2 attacks though, I'm not sure.....

Chrysis wrote:If you want a newer codex, have a look at the Dark Eldar codex. All of the paired weapons explicitly state that they count as an extra hand weapon, and in the case of the Hydra Gauntlets that the +1 bonus is replaced with +d6.

Given that there's no rules for "A Nemesis Falchion" only for "A Pair of Nemesis Falchions" and that the rules don't explicitly state they count as having an extra hand weapon then they don't. On the basis they aren't explicitly stated as having two weapons in the rules, they don't technically have two weapons and so don't qualify for the two weapon bonus attack.

4

Incorrect.

the entrry is for a Nemesis Falchion. ALL Nemesis Weapons are categorically listed as Force Weapons. All Power Weapons are Single Handed CCW, as defined in the BRB.

Thus you have a Pair of Nemesis Falchions == Pair of (Force Weapon) Falchions == Pair of (Power weapon + bonus) Falchions == Pair of (single handed CCW+ Bonus) Falchions == Pair of CCW (Falchions)

This has been posted 10 or 11 times now, so please either refute the decomposition given above or refrain from claiming the dont count as 2 CCW. They DO.