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FlingitNow wrote:Yes in your example the falcions would give both +2 I and +1 attack for being double armed.

I know that the Falchion is a single weapon, and wielding a pair of (nearly all, not necessarily identical) CCWs grants you an extra attack.

In order for that to happen a single Falchion must be a CCW - and it is stated nowhere that it is as such. Let us distance ourselfs from "pair", falchions, etc. so that I can try to make my point clear.

Upgrade X - 4 points, +2 Ini

Upgrade Y - 5 points, +1 Att

We're talking about LD 9/10, WS4 troops that cost 20 points, have 1 base attack that on a successful roll causes ID. Getting another two attacks on the base profile should be worth a LOT more than 5 points.

At least I think that was what Ward was thinking... Of course we'll only know until the 'dex gets FAQ'd, but it is a problem that could be answered by the Developer on one of the GW's site daily posts.

Actually, Falchions are stated as being CCWs.


they are called nemisis force weapons.


nemisis force weapons are Force Weapons.


force weapons are power weapons.


power weapons are, unless specifically stated as such, CCWs.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, Falchions are stated as being CCWs.

We know that, fluff wise, a NFW is a NFW no matter what.

But here they are only available in pairs, and the benefit for that upgrade is another Attack.

I don't think we'll ever reach a conclusion, GT. I see your point, but I still think that the rules weren't intended as that. There was a case where the Developer specifically stated that an upgrade granted, or didn't, the extra attack. I just can't remember where (and what edition) it was.

But if a Falchion is a NFW,

and a NFW is a FW,

and a FW is a PW,

and PW is a CCW,

therefore, according to the rules of Logic, a Falchion = CCW.

I'm not for making things any more over powered than they are...but it seems fairly clear that no one would take the falchions for +1 attack only. The halberd is a better choice for the same or lesser cost (depending on unit) in most cases.

Grey Templar wrote:But if a Falchion is a NFW,

and a NFW is a FW,

and a FW is a PW,

and PW is a CCW,

therefore, according to the rules of Logic, a Falchion = CCW.

If Falchion = NFW, it has no benefit alone (the Sword has +1 to Inv Saves, the Halberd for +2 Ini). Then you have two NFW that, together grant +1 Attack, as stated in the entry, which ought to reiterate what is stated in the BGB, under the entry regarding two CCWs.

Individually, it's just a NFW without any other bonus. Bought as a pair, it has the said bonus.

@Void, there are a lot of weapon options that are worse than other upgrades. Some people might prefer the look of the Falchions, or do it because they fight some enemies where +1 Attack might justify it. Not everyone cares for Mathammer - take, for example, if fighting lower initiative enemies like Orks or Necrons - in this case the extra attack upgrade would be a lot more useful (though the Halberd is more versatile).

Destrado wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:But if a Falchion is a NFW,

and a NFW is a FW,

and a FW is a PW,

and PW is a CCW,

therefore, according to the rules of Logic, a Falchion = CCW.

If Falchion = NFW, it has no benefit alone (the Sword has +1 to Inv Saves, the Halberd for +2 Ini). Then you have two NFW that, together grant +1 Attack, as stated in the entry, which ought to reiterate what is stated in the BGB, under the entry regarding two CCWs.

Individually, it's just a NFW without any other bonus. Bought as a pair, it has the said bonus.

@Void, there are a lot of weapon options that are worse than other upgrades. Some people might prefer the look of the Falchions, or do it because they fight some enemies where +1 Attack might justify it. Not everyone cares for Mathammer - take, for example, if fighting lower initiative enemies like Orks or Necrons - in this case the extra attack upgrade would be a lot more useful (though the Halberd is more versatile).

however, the Falchion, as a NFW, has additional rules. the additional rule is that Falchions(plural being the same plural by which the Halbard Entry says Halbards)


if a person bought a single Falchion(if it were possable) then, RAW, they would get +1A.

adding another Falchion gives an additional attack because you have a Falchion and an additional CCW. the additional CCW just happens to also be a Falchion.

According to Jaon's image on the first post, it clearly states that a pair of Falchions adds 1 Attack. It doesn't state that each Falchion gets 1 attack.

In any case, I emailed GW. I'm curious as to what their opinion on this might be.

the people who work the GW help line know absolutly nothing about the rules.

after you get the answer back, send the email again. you will most likely get a different answer.

It's not like I think it will settle the argument, but who knows what we'll get. It's not like we're nearing the end of the discussion (although I think it managed to stay quite insult-free).

Nice arguing with you, GT, and some others. People managed to pass their point without resorting to insults.

I could argue RAI, but if I did something as stupid as that I'd have to know exactly what Nemesis Force Weapon does (as in, is it ever possible to have two NFW? How much are the costs between these two options on an as similar model as possible?)

Regardless, there is such a thing as being overly clear on the rules. Re-stating what a weapon or pair of weapons do just for clarity is not beyond GW and may very well be exactly just that.

It is generally accepted that the two Eldar options that Steelmage99 brough up on page 2 only gives exactly what the rulebook entry says - and no extra attack for being a pair.
What changes that for Grey Knights when it is how we've been playing other armies for nearly a decade now? I mean, it's nice if I can add power weapon and +2 attacks for +10 points on a Warp Spider (which is far, far, below the standard fare for such upgrades), but it's still a pretty marginal gain for me personally.

Previously a single weapons entry meant that in spite of the actual model having two weapons and it being described as a dual weapon, on Dakkadakka it had been accepted as being a single weapon.

But regardless, I'm doing something silly and have skipped a few pages of posting. I believe the real answer lies in how much the weapon upgrade costs, if that can even be discerned.

P.S. helgrenze, stop bringing up trousers. It's a pair since each leg is one. The fact that it's sewn together into a single item of clothing is a very recent thing and it wasn't that many years ago (historically speaking) when it was two or three separate pieces of clothing.

P.p.s. So I did skim them after all...

Let's look at it another way. What does a single Falchion do? Give 0.5 attacks? 1 Attack?

It would grant the user +1 attack as that is the rules for a model armed with a falchion, if he also had another CCW he would gain a further additional attack.

Initially I read the NemFalch entry and responded to the OP 'huk huk 1 attack stoopid'. Then going through this thread, and especially looking at how Grey Templar broke it down, I think RAW it probably is 2 attacks, such that a charging Grey Knight Terminator would get 5 attacks total.

So now I'm completely undecided as to how they should work. It wouldn't be the first time wargear improved an attack characteristic (Thunderwulf Cav), but it would be the first time that a weapon did so without being a variable number (daemon weapon d6, MotW d6).

It's not worth 5 points if all it does is increase the A characteristic by 1, but I'm not sure if 5 points is enough spent to justify increasing by 2. Taken in a vacuum, 8 grenade-toting Terminators getting forty attacks on the charge with force weapons certainly does seem worth 360 points.

And in all fairness, the terminators end up sacrificing a significant increase in invulnerable save in order to get it. I'd say, for five points, it's a fair trade off.

For a normal Grey Knight it is 10 points, given that giving him a superior version of a thunderhammer only costs 5 points (is free for the terminators) gaining 2 attacks seems about right for the spend.

Im interested to see what the GW dudes say, reguardless of their lack of knowledge. I will play it as 2 attacks for wysiwyg purposes, until it is FAQ'd.

From a pointswise standpoint, it does seem 10 points = 2 attacks more. Now just grant them counter attack and the unit is rock hard

Ah, so I see the dogma has shifted back to Demiklaives, Powerblades, and Chainsabers all giving +2/3 attacks then.

Demiklaives are listed as a two handed weapon (dont quote me, someone else said it)

I have realized something so very horrible.

Terminator with 2 attacks base. 1+ for banner. 2+ for falchion, 1+ for charge / counter attack (if given). 6 attacks.

Between 4 terminators, thats already 24 power weapon attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
..now I feel bad :/

Yup, its brutal.

although a squad like that is costing 250 points minimum and they only have a 5++ save so TEQ hunters will rip them up pretty bad.

Jaon wrote:Im interested to see what the GW dudes say, reguardless of their lack of knowledge. I will play it as 2 attacks for wysiwyg purposes, until it is FAQ'd.

From a pointswise standpoint, it does seem 10 points = 2 attacks more. Now just grant them counter attack and the unit is rock hard

I'd argue pointswise that 10 points for 2 extra attacks is too cheap. Given that Power Armour Grey Knights wouldn't be sacrificing anything to make that trade.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone else who wants an extra attack with no strings attached pays 10 points for it. (Mark of Khorne on a Lord, Aspiring Champion Upgrades)
Alternatively, they pay less for the extra attack, but have to sacrifice shooting ability to get it (swap boltgun for bolt pistol).

Power Armour Grey Knights don't give up any shooting ability when buying Falchions, nor do the Falchions have any built in drawbacks like initiative loss. They lose a bonus to an invulnerable save they don't have, but that doesn't mean anything. Ten points for 1 attack looks fair to me.

A 50% increase in price for 1 attack? Nope, definintely not "fair"

Only 1 attack really doesnt fit with the description - they can attack "lightningly fast", yet at +1 attack they can attack exactly the same number of times as someone holding ONE of the weapons and a pistol?

The RAW is fairly clear, as there is nothing stating the +1attack replaces the bonus attack for 2CCW and you literally have a pair of (Force Weapon) Falchions

They go from being a complete nobrainer of a none choice to a serious contender.

Chrysis wrote:

Jaon wrote:Im interested to see what the GW dudes say, reguardless of their lack of knowledge. I will play it as 2 attacks for wysiwyg purposes, until it is FAQ'd.

From a pointswise standpoint, it does seem 10 points = 2 attacks more. Now just grant them counter attack and the unit is rock hard

I'd argue pointswise that 10 points for 2 extra attacks is too cheap. Given that Power Armour Grey Knights wouldn't be sacrificing anything to make that trade.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone else who wants an extra attack with no strings attached pays 10 points for it. (Mark of Khorne on a Lord, Aspiring Champion Upgrades)
Alternatively, they pay less for the extra attack, but have to sacrifice shooting ability to get it (swap boltgun for bolt pistol).

Power Armour Grey Knights don't give up any shooting ability when buying Falchions, nor do the Falchions have any built in drawbacks like initiative loss. They lose a bonus to an invulnerable save they don't have, but that doesn't mean anything. Ten points for 1 attack looks fair to me.

what you forget is you are putting the price of a single marine up to 30 points. Every plasma shot fired into that repays for the plasma gun and the model firing it.

I'd argue pointswise that 10 points for 2 extra attacks is too cheap. Given that Power Armour Grey Knights wouldn't be sacrificing anything to make that trade.

To the best of my knowledge, everyone else who wants an extra attack with no strings attached pays 10 points for it. (Mark of Khorne on a Lord, Aspiring Champion Upgrades)
Alternatively, they pay less for the extra attack, but have to sacrifice shooting ability to get it (swap boltgun for bolt pistol).

Power Armour Grey Knights don't give up any shooting ability when buying Falchions, nor do the Falchions have any built in drawbacks like initiative loss. They lose a bonus to an invulnerable save they don't have, but that doesn't mean anything. Ten points for 1 attack looks fair to me.

You're not factoring in survivability or what other options are available. Everyone to take a THunderhammer or Powerfist is normall paying 25-30 points the Grey Knights get a superior version for just 5 points. So in comparison they are comparatively paying 50-60 points for the falcions.

Look at Purifiers they have 1 more attack (and no strings) are 4 points more that a Strike. Everything in the codex points towards Falchions being +2 attacks.

As much as I love it, purifiers are horribly undercosted

Jaon wrote:Demiklaives are listed as a two handed weapon (dont quote me, someone else said it)

Demiklaives: Demiklaives are power weapons that can either be wielded separately - adding +2 to the bearer's Attacks - or clasped together to form a much larger blade that confers +2 to the wielder's Strength (choose which to use each round before the bearer makes his attacks).

Nothing in there about being two handed weapons. Same wording as Falchions on the bonus attack part. So if Falchions are +2 attacks, Demiklaives are +3 when used for extra attacks.

Culler wrote:I think RAW it says that they only give +1A, not +2. Here's my reasoning:

The entry doesn't say that a pair of nemesis falchions GIVE +1A (implying it is given above and beyond whatever else), they say that models with a pair of them HAVE +1A, meaning the total amount of bonus attacks for wielding that equipment on top of your base from stat line is +1A. Bonus attacks from sources besides this particular piece of equipment do stack.

For 5/10 points they should give +2A though, and this should be FAQ'd.

This.

Except nothing stating they are a pair, which is a fairly critical aspect....

Well, the Wargear entry AND the unit entry both say there are 2 of them.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the Wargear entry AND the unit entry both say there are 2 of them.

No, it doesnt. Page 31 just contains the rules text noted above - which never mentions a number, just a plural - and the Unit Entry simply states "Demiklaives"

Demiklaives are 1 weapon, whereas Nemesis Falchions DO come in pairs.

I have to agree with DarknessEternal.

As long as Powered Blades, Chainsabers, and Demiklaives are not being given a "free" attack I don't see why GKs should get one for a wargear with similar wording?

I mean when you think about it, you are doubling a Strike Squad's melee attacks for 50% of the cost. Thats not really a bad trade off...

I mean there is no reason that GKs should be different from anybody else in how their rules are interpreted.

As has been mentioned before, what a model is armed with by the rules, and how that is represetned on the table top are 2 very different things. I can model a khorne demon weapon as being 2 blades, but that doesn't make it more than one weapon.

If a pair of Falcions grants + 1 attack, then thats what a PAIR does.

I am constantly gaining more and more respect for the job Phil Kelly did writing the Eldar codex. Look at the entry for Mirror Swords. It says roughly that a model weilding mirror swords gets +2 attacks instead of the usual +1 for wielding 2 weapons. That is an example of a clearly worded pair of weapons granting +2 attacks.

If you play Powered Blades as granting +1 attack, then you need to play Falcions the same way. Simple as that.