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ChrisCP wrote:Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules.

where?

by your definition, if i buy a pair of LCs for my assault marine sergeant he doesn't have 2 LCs.

the fact i can buy them singly is irrelavent.

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules. To classify a piece of wargear as two CCWs one needs a qualifier as seen with 'Razorflails'.
They can't be used alone so how can one be one CCW weapon. It isn't and there is nothing in the rules to indicate that one is.

Tell me where in the rules "Lightning Claws" are explicitly stated as 2 (and only 2!) weapons.

This is an interesting thread, to say the least.

Culler wrote:A) Falchions are 2 separate weapons that give +1 attack as a special ability (for +2A total)
B) Falchions are 2 separate weapons that have no special ability conferring bonus attacks, and the codex entry is merely confirming the fact they are 2 separate weapons (for +1A total)
C) Falchions are a single weapon that gives +1 attack as a special ability (for +1A total)

I'd side with Culler's B.

From where I stand, a Lightning Claw is a Close Combat Weapon. You buy a pair of them, and you get +1 attack. The tradeoff is not having a Storm Bolter (Wolf Guard, for example).

I don't have the GK codex (so please bear with me) but don't NFW cause ID on a failed LD test per wound?
If so, one extra attack on 5-10 guys could mean a LOT.
For 5 points gaining two extra attacks seems a bit OTT.

Apologizing in advance if I got it wrong, but I'm curious about this discussion. People on both sides have made interesting points.

to activate the ID part of a FW it requires a psychic test to cause one attack to be ID.

so a regular GK squad can only do one ID attack each.


Level2 and 3 Gk psykers could do multiple ID attacks with their force weapons though.

Ah, thanks GT. Still, having an extra attack to hit and wound under those circumstances still seems good, given that you're improving your chances of landing that blow, right?

I would be ok with playing a game with someone who presented one of the more sensible arguments about the pair getting +2, though. It's a thin line, after all.

Grey Templar wrote:to activate the ID part of a FW it requires a psychic test to cause one attack to be ID.

so a regular GK squad can only do one ID attack each.


Level2 and 3 Gk psykers could do multiple ID attacks with their force weapons though.

Wrong. A GK Squad makes every attack inflict instant death if they pass their test. See Brotherhood of Psykers on page 21 and Nemesis Force Weapons on page 54.

Really?

Thats, interesting.

It's really freaking awesome, is what it is.

And even better, Terminators and Paladins can take a banner which makes them automatically pass the psychic test for them to activate, so not even Tyranids are safe.

To me it's kind've like the Templar's Chapter Banner. Units that charge a BT squad with the Banner give it both counter-attack and an additional attack (page 27, wargear section). Is it stretching? Hell yeah, but it's written in black and white. At least to me, anyway.

Grey Templar wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules.

where?

by your definition, if i buy a pair of LCs for my assault marine sergeant he doesn't have 2 LCs.

the fact i can buy them singly is irrelavent.

Except that you CAN'T buy Pair of lighting claws to your assault sergeant, do you have codex at all? In all latest books that share similar design you buy\switch items one by one, not as pairs.

Grey Templar wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules.

where?

the fact i can buy them singly is irrelavent.

By the wargear entry, 'weapons' are purchsed singularly or one at a time. The 'weapon' one is purchasing is a 'pair of flachions' which grant +1A and count-as a nemisis force weapon. If one was in fact purchasing two CCW's then the enrty need to explictly state this, as shown with 'Shardnet and impaler' and many other things which 'count as' two CCW.

Lightning Claws BRB
"Lightning claws are commonly used as matched pairs and consist of a number of blades, each a mini-power weapon, normally mounted on the back of the hand. A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound." Is defined as a singular item. Thus when one has two one gains a bonus attack for two of the same special CCW. They are bought as a single item - unless you want to say that every entry which allows one to swap for two claws is redundant.

Nemisis Flachions are a singular wargear entry, for it to 'counts as two CCWs' it actually needs word to that effect. As other pairs of items which are purchased as pairs of items show.
For a single wargear entry/purchase, it's one weapon unless told otherwise.

So Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, are 1 weapon because they are one wargear entry, even though they are listed as a pair of power fists?

Hint: they are two power fists, Pair means two.

DeathReaper wrote:So Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, are 1 weapon because they are one wargear entry, even though they are listed as a pair of power fists?

Two approachs for this issue depending on which argument one wished to make.

1) Yep that's right, they are.

2) No they are in-fact two weapons but as a PF is clearly defined as a single handed CCW in the dex there's no issue there. Can you find a flachion defined as a CCW?

Is a falchion a CCW? then it is one handed, since it does not state that it is two handed, as per the FAQ.

Your #1 is a logical fallacy, since P.42 tells us, under "two of the same special weapon', that you use only the special weapon's bonuses and penalties.

Better lol.

That's just it a 'flachion' does not exist. They are only ever 'used in pairs' they can not be used independantly, so one alone can not be a CCW. If it were defined at all as a CCW then yes they'd have two CCWs but as things stand a flachion is not a CCW and it will need an FAQ to right it.

ChrisCP wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules.

where?

the fact i can buy them singly is irrelavent.

By the wargear entry, 'weapons' are purchsed singularly or one at a time. The 'weapon' one is purchasing is a 'pair of flachions' which grant +1A and count-as a nemisis force weapon. If one was in fact purchasing two CCW's then the enrty need to explictly state this, as shown with 'Shardnet and impaler' and many other things which 'count as' two CCW.

Lightning Claws BRB
"Lightning claws are commonly used as matched pairs and consist of a number of blades, each a mini-power weapon, normally mounted on the back of the hand. A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound." Is defined as a singular item. Thus when one has two one gains a bonus attack for two of the same special CCW. They are bought as a single item - unless you want to say that every entry which allows one to swap for two claws is redundant.

Nemisis Flachions are a singular wargear entry, for it to 'counts as two CCWs' it actually needs word to that effect. As other pairs of items which are purchased as pairs of items show.
For a single wargear entry/purchase, it's one weapon unless told otherwise.

Im going to be civil and simply state: The only reason they are bought as a pair is so they dont get taken as single weapons, hence looking like nemesis force swords. Being bought as a pair removes the possibility of confusing, and is a defining WYSIWYG of the model. I am not saying that because the model has 2 they are counted as 2, I am saying they are counted as 2 so the model is forced to take 2 to be WYSIWYG.

Or they could be a weapon 'set' like a 'shardnet and impaler' but aren't two close combat weapons... Taking them as a 'single weapon' isn't possible due to the codex section restrictions, and even if taking one was possible the GK in question has no other way of gaining a bonus attack.

So I put to you. They are a pair for the rule of cool, a guy wielding two looks cool than with one. They grant a bonus attack, because they are so cool, otherwise they'd be force swords. If they'd stated grant +2 attacks we'd still be having this discussion for people wanting +3. If they'd been intended to grant +2 attacks then they would have stated 'counts as two CCW' or it will be attended to in the FAQ.

As things stand I would love for someone to show me what a 'nemesis falchion' is in the 40K Rules Universe and then justify it with Rules as being two CCWs. Powerfists are defined singularly, so are lightning claws. Flachoins are invariably wielded as a pair - otherwise they would be force swords. +5pts +1 attack not bad. Basically if people still disagree that A Falchion is not anything in a rules context, and that wargear does not need to explicitly state that it counts as two CCWs - then we will remain at this impasse until the issues is addressed by GW.

Putting the main issue aside. I have a sense or foreboding from the idea of counting anything with a plural or indication of a second item as an additional CCW. But it might give some old codexs a buff when they need it most.

Grey Templar wrote:Really?

Thats, interesting.

Yeah, it is so you dont have to roll every single gk's attacks individually so you know if any gk's didnt cause any wounds.

Falchion (pronounced /ˈfɔːlʃən/, from Old French fauchon, ultimately from Latin falx "sickle") is a one-handed, single-edged sword of European origin, whose design is reminiscent of the Persian scimitar and the Chinese dao.

Definition of PAIR

a (1) : two corresponding things designed for use together (2) : two corresponding bodily parts or members

The argument that you can't use a single falchion is ridiculous. You can't BUY a single falchion, but it certainly is a weapon in its own right.

The 'pair' of pants argument is similarly inane. A 'pair' of scissors would have been a better illustration - but please tell me that none of you would suggest that GW meant its most elite warriors to be running about with Nemesis Force Scissors. Everyone knows that's just not safe.

I think it's safe to say that everyone knows what a pair is. It's been insisted time and time again that a pair grants +1 Attack, if you have two CCW.

You pay for the pair, and as far as we know, that combination is a single CCW that grants +1 attack. Perhaps it is a pair on the miniatures because they found it had to be different to the regular Nemesis Force Sword. If it was meant to be an extra CCW it'd be easier if you bought a Falchion in addition to the NFW you already had.

Ok.... since a "pair of pants" is a bad comparison...how about this for a real world example...

A "Pair of" Chopsticks! Now it can be argued that you only need one but they are best used as a single item. Yes, you get 2 chopsticks, but they are most effective when employed as a single item.

So, who wants to argue that having a "pair of" chopsticks means you can pick up more with each because they are a "Pair"?

The same can be said for Knitting needles...... You need two for them to be any use, but individually, they are nearly useless.

That's just it a 'flachion' does not exist. They are only ever 'used in pairs' they can not be used independantly, so one alone can not be a CCW.

You'd have a point if their wargear entry also listed them as a pair of falchions. They are listed only a falchions and they have special rules that apply to falchions and when purchased you get a pair and alll the benefits that stem from that...

FlingitNow wrote:

That's just it a 'flachion' does not exist. They are only ever 'used in pairs' they can not be used independantly, so one alone can not be a CCW.

You'd have a point if their wargear entry also listed them as a pair of falchions. They are listed only a falchions and they have special rules that apply to falchions and when purchased you get a pair and alll the benefits that stem from that...

The wargear entry simply says what the Falchions rule is.


However, the unit entry says you buy a PAIR of them.

so what you can only ever buy them in a pair. i can only buy shoes in pairs, but there are still 2 of them.

helgrenze wrote:Ok.... since a "pair of pants" is a bad comparison...how about this for a real world example...

A "Pair of" Chopsticks! Now it can be argued that you only need one but they are best used as a single item. Yes, you get 2 chopsticks, but they are most effective when employed as a single item.

So, who wants to argue that having a "pair of" chopsticks means you can pick up more with each because they are a "Pair"?

The same can be said for Knitting needles...... You need two for them to be any use, but individually, they are nearly useless.

Good examples...but a single falchion is perfectly serviceable weapon. A single chopstick or a single knitting needle can't really do the job they were intended for - a single falchion, can.

yes, i can still spear my food with a single chopstick, or poke someones eye out.

if i have 2 i can do it even better.

The wargear entry simply says what the Falchions rule is.


However, the unit entry says you buy a PAIR of them.

so what you can only ever buy them in a pair. i can only buy shoes in pairs, but there are still 2 of them.

I agree entirely

Wargears just says what falcions do. So thus what each falchion does, that you have to purchase them as a pair is largely irrelevant it just means you have to gain a further benefit.

Destrado wrote:I think it's safe to say that everyone knows what a pair is. It's been insisted time and time again that a pair grants +1 Attack, if you have two CCW.

You pay for the pair, and as far as we know, that combination is a single CCW that grants +1 attack. Perhaps it is a pair on the miniatures because they found it had to be different to the regular Nemesis Force Sword. If it was meant to be an extra CCW it'd be easier if you bought a Falchion in addition to the NFW you already had.

Except that would give you the benefit of both +1 attacks for 2 CCWs as well as the +1 to the invulnerable save granted by the orignal NFW.

Rephistorch wrote:Except that would give you the benefit of both +1 attacks for 2 CCWs as well as the +1 to the invulnerable save granted by the orignal NFW.

I merely meant it as illustrative. Imagine changing the bonus around. The Falchions grant +2 Initiative, the Halberd +1 to the Invulnerable Save, and the Sword +1 Attack.

If it was written like this, would the Falchions being a pair grant another attack on top of it? I still think they did it like that to show a clear difference between the equipment you pick.

Let's look at it another way. What does a single Falchion do? Give 0.5 attacks? 1 Attack?

If it was written like this, would the Falchions being a pair grant another attack on top of it?

Yes in your example the falcions would give both +2 I and +1 attack for being double armed.

yup, the Falchions would give +2I and +1A for being 2 CCWs in that situation.