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DarknessEternal wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
"Demiklaives are power weapons that can either be wielded separately - adding +2 to the bearer's Attacks - or clasped together to form a much larger blade that confers +2 to the wielder's Strength (choose which to use each round before the bearer make his attacks)."

Now, with the relevant rules, can we stop using the Demiklaives argument?

No. DemiklaiveS means there are at least two of them.

And you know for certain that the s means plural how? The fact is, the rules don't say there are actually multiple demiklaives, just that you can use the demiklaives as separate parts.

Look at the Incubi entry, you replace a Klaive with Demiklaives. No mention of a number(just like the actual rules for Demiklaives).

Look at the Grey Knight entry, you replace their Nemesis Force Sword with a PAIR of Nemesis Force Falchions.

Do you see the difference or do I need to point you to something that explains the difference grammatically?

It has already been stated that Demiklaives are 2 handed weapons, and as such, their arguement is moot.

"Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules "

Doesn't DR say it best with the FAQ answer? And Shardnet & Impaler follow this reasoning ', a "Pair of Flachions" do not state that they count (or each count) as single-handed weapons, nor is there any option to buy a single Flachion, where-in one could be defined as a CCW.

So 'a Pair of flachions' is a single handed CCW as per the rules and FAQ, they grant a bonus attack due to it's rules, as if they were being weilded as a pair of special CCW.

There is not standpoint from a rules perspective to say that this pair counts as two CCW weapons - if they were meant to they would have a qualifer along the lines of 'counts as two CCWs' as we see in the DE codex. As things stand one recives the bouns of +1 attack as if one was using the rules for two of the same special CCW.

Chris, A Nemeisis falchion is a single-handed CCW, but you buy a PAIR of Nemeisis falchions, so you get two falchions.

Seriously people check out the way the model is WYSIWYG on the 40k website, clearly a pair of Nemeisis falchions are two close combat weapons. It may not be clear in the rules, but the model is indisputable.

DeathReaper wrote:Chris, A Nemeisis falchion is a single-handed CCW, but you buy a PAIR of Nemeisis falchions, so you get two falchions.

Where do you buy a single flachion? Where is the wargear entry for a single flacion? Where is a single Flachion defind as a weapon at all in the codex? Rules man.

There is no option to buy a single falchion, you must buy the pair for the for the points listed.

Have you seen the model on the GW website?

WYSIWYG!

ChrisCP wrote:"Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules "

Doesn't DR say it best with the FAQ answer? And Shardnet & Impaler follow this reasoning ', a "Pair of Flachions" do not state that they count (or each count) as single-handed weapons, nor is there any option to buy a single Flachion, where-in one could be defined as a CCW.

So 'a Pair of flachions' is a single handed CCW as per the rules and FAQ, they grant a bonus attack due to it's rules, as if they were being weilded as a pair of special CCW.

There is not standpoint from a rules perspective to say that this pair counts as two CCW weapons - if they were meant to they would have a qualifer along the lines of 'counts as two CCWs' as we see in the DE codex. As things stand one recives the bouns of +1 attack as if one was using the rules for two of the same special CCW.

it doesn't matter that they can't be purchased singly.


Nemisis Falchions are a Pair of nemisis weapons.

Nemisis Weapons are Force Weapons with additional rules for each type(Sword, Halbard, Falchion)


Force weapons are Power weapons with additional rules.

Power weaponms are, unless specified in an entry, a single close combat weapon.


because there is a PAIR of Falchions, the model is wielding 2 force weapons.

because Force Weapons are defined as Power weapons the model is wielding 2 CCWs.



the Falchion's rules also say the wielder gets +1A for using them.


therefore, the wielder gets +2A RAW.

It is still a single item therefore weapon when purchased.
If it counted for two then it would recive a qualifer like Hydra Gauntlets, a pair of gauntlets, which say 'These count as two CCW'.

The weapon, is a "Pair of Flachions", 'invariably wielded as a pair.' If a GK had a single Flachion they wouldn't be able to use it. If they counted as two CCWs then they would recive the same treatment as other items which count for two CCWs. Pending an FAQ ruling otherwise, they are bought as a single item and grant a bonus attack.

Grey Templar wrote:models buy a PAIR of nemisis falchions.


it is impossable to use two 2 handed weapons at once(and don't bring up Stormshields because they arn't weapons) therefore, they are a singlehanded weapon.

because there is a PAIR of weapons bought in this instance the model clearly has 2 Nemisis weapons.


Nemisis Weapons are defined as Force Weapons with additional rules for the different types.

Force Weapons are Power Weapons.

Power Weapons, unless otherwise specified, are single handed CCWs.


therefore, the model with Nemisis Falchions has a pair of Force Weapons that have an additional rule granting +1A.

Powerblades are also bought as a pair. Powerblades grant +1 Attack.
Power blades are power weapons. Power weapons are single handed.
So a model armed with powerblades gains +1 Attack, and +1 attack.

Chain sabres are also bought as a pair. Chainsabres grant +1 Attack.
Chainsabres are CCW, they are not stated as 2-handed, so are assumed to be single handed.
So a model arned with chainsabres gains +1 Attack, and +1 attack.

Now, if this is the case... why have the following...

Mirror swords are also bought as a pair. Mirror swords grant +2 Attack as opposed to the +1 normally for having 2 CCW.

---

If a pair of weapons, bought together as a single item (see Powerblades, chainsabres, mirror swords and falchions) indeed granted +1 +1 attacks. Why would you have the mirror swords entry?

ChrisCP, look at the model I referenced on the GW site, How many CCW's does it have?

ChrisCP wrote:It is still a single item therefore weapon when purchased.
If it counted for two then it would recive a qualifer like Hydra Gauntlets, a pair of gauntlets, which say 'These count as two CCW'.

The weapon, is a "Pair of Flachions", 'invariably wielded as a pair.' If a GK had a single Flachion they wouldn't be able to use it. If they counted as two CCWs then they would recive the same treatment as other items which count for two CCWs. Pending an FAQ ruling otherwise, they are bought as a single item and grant a bonus attack.

just because they are bought together doesn't mean they are a single weapon.


my Assault Marine sergeant can buy a pair of LCs. does that mean he doesn't get the bonus for 2 CCWs?

DeathReaper wrote:ChrisCP, look at the model I referenced on the GW site, How many CCW's does it have?

We are discussing rules here DR, if you want to take that modelling stuff over to the P&M section I'll gladly address it there.

Again one buys 'Nemisis Flachions' as a pair. A single item of wargear or weapon. If they counted as two then they would have recived the same treatment as items from previous and recent codex by the same author 'Count as two CCW'.
They may have been meant to count as two sperate items of wargear but they do not when one follows the rules. They are a Pair of flachions and grant +1 attack, as if they were two of the same CCW. If they were two CCW's then the entry for this single item of wargear would state it.

ChrisCP wrote:
Again one buys 'Nemisis Flachions' as a pair. A single item of wargear or weapon. If they counted as two then they would have recived the same treatment as items from previous and recent codex by the same author 'Count as two CCW'.

What, you mean like in C:SM and C:BA, both written by the same author, where you buy a pair of Lightning Claws as a single item?

ChrisCP wrote:Again one buys 'Nemisis Flachions' as a pair. A single item of wargear or weapon. If they counted as two then they would have recived the same treatment as items from previous and recent codex by the same author 'Count as two CCW'.
They may have been meant to count as two sperate items of wargear but they do not when one follows the rules. They are a Pair of flachions and grant +1 attack, as if they were two of the same CCW. If they were two CCW's then the entry for this single item of wargear would state it.

The model "has +1 Attack", thats not the same as being granted +1 attack. Uppercase means there talking about characteristics. While a pair of weapons (pair is what you buy then as, the codexs says so) gives a Bonus attack by BRB.

ok chriscp let us discuss rules, WYSIWYG P.47 says '...weapons and wargear they can use - ... The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model...'

So now please tell me: how many weapons are visually represented on the model that has a pair of nemesis falchions?

DeathReaper wrote:ok chriscp let us discuss rules, WYSIWYG P.47 says '...weapons and wargear they can use - ... The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model...'

So now please tell me: how many weapons are visually represented on the model that has a pair of nemesis falchions?

Where are their bolters?





Where are their bolt pistols and close combat weapons?





Where are their bolt pistols?

There is wargear on the sprues to make those guys WYSIWYG if you want.

most people choose not to put the extra wargear on.

What Grey Templar said.

The GK pic shows you exactly what i mentioned, a Pair of Force falchions.

Again, I bring up the idea of a "Pair of Trousers". There is no way to buy a single trouser.....
Just as there is no way to buy a single Falchion.

LCs can be bought singly, and buying a "pair" costs extra points.

Regardless of how the weapon is modelled, (granted it is listed as a "pair" when purchased) it is still a single weapon system, purchased as such, much like you would purchase a "pair" of scissors, which is, similarly a "pair" of blades that are invariably used together.

Grey Templar wrote:There is wargear on the sprues to make those guys WYSIWYG if you want.

most people choose not to put the extra wargear on.

Of course, which was the point of me posting the picture. A person cannot reference a model from Games Workshop to reinforce an interpretation of the rules----as there are multiple instances of Games Workshop photos (which those are directly linked from their site) showing erroneously armed models.

Why are we even talking about the appearance? It's the wording that's the issue.

WYSIWYG is an awful argument.

It only applies to specific war gear, as general war gear is automatically included. Just because something is represented as being 2 swords DOESN'T make it 2 swords in the game according to the rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440239a&prodId=prod1060094

Look at this Eldar Warlock. He is clearly wielding a 2 handed witch blade. We know he has a shuri pistol as well, but WYSIWYG- according to your interpretation would mean he would only get 1 attack because the pistol isn't modeled, and hes wielding a 2 handed weapon.

WYSIWYG only applies insofar as your opponent can clearly understand what wargear you have. It does not dictate how many attacks you get per model or anything else.

The fact still remains that a PAIR of force weapons is two force weapons.

DeathReaper wrote:ok chriscp let us discuss rules, WYSIWYG P.47 says '...weapons and wargear they can use - ... The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model...'

So now please tell me: how many weapons are visually represented on the model that has a pair of nemesis falchions?

The upgrade, the weapon, has been clearly represented on the model. It's a pair of Flachions, and purchased as such. There is no privisor to count each as a 'single flachion' as they are invariably weilded as a pair. That's why one only pays the upgrade for the wargear item once.

Point being the WYSIWYG is a seperate rule from the lack of one we are discussing - otherwise none could claim a FF save or any other pice of wargear that somehow misses it's visual representation... as others have already pointed out, plese stop throwing this strawman around.

Again RAW we have a single wargear entry, no indication that it 'counts as two CCW'. Two blades invariably wielded as a pair, one weapon, one wargear purchase, one entry for the pair. And no text saying they count as more than one weapon.

^This actually makes some sense...

My word that GK FAQ will be massive

They are bought as a pair of weapons. they are invariably wielded as a PAIR.
This indicates there is 2 of them.

DeathReaper wrote:They are bought as a pair of weapons. This indicates there is 2 of them.

and, since Nemisis Weapons are defined as Force Weapons with additional abilities,

and since Force Weapons are defined as Power Weapons with additional abilities,

and since Power Weapons are defined as CCWs that disallow armor saves in CC,

we can finally conclude that the Falchions give the wielded +2A total. one for being Nemisis Falchions, and 1 for being 2 CCWs.




and the pair of pants argument is a little rediclous. it's an exception rather then a rule.

helgrenze wrote:Again, I bring up the idea of a "Pair of Trousers". There is no way to buy a single trouser.....
Just as there is no way to buy a single Falchion.

LCs can be bought singly, and buying a "pair" costs extra points.

Regardless of how the weapon is modelled, (granted it is listed as a "pair" when purchased) it is still a single weapon system, purchased as such, much like you would purchase a "pair" of scissors, which is, similarly a "pair" of blades that are invariably used together.

BA Assault terminators come by default with a "lightning claws". it doesn't say 1, 2 or even 3. I mean, technically, "claws" means 2 or more. My assault terminators could therefore have 20 lightning claws each if I wanted them to. Infantry rules state that they can only ever get +1 for 2 or more weapons though, but that's not he point here. The point is, we have to use the English language and the written rules to determine how many CCWs a model has. If anything, "claws" is more ambiguous than "A pair of nemesis falchions".

Yes, and the pair of Flachions is defined as a single weapon as per the rules. To classify a piece of wargear as two CCWs one needs a qualifier as seen with 'Razorflails'.
They can't be used alone so how can one be one CCW weapon. It isn't and there is nothing in the rules to indicate that one is.

The Word Pair in the rules is an indicator that it is in fact, a, wait for it, Pair of weapons, and not a single weapon.