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Where in the rules (BRB) does it state a power weapon counts as a single handed CCW? I seem to remember reading this but can't remember where I saw it.

Have you seen the GK model that has a pair of falchions, he is literally wielding 2 swords...

look at the second group of images, its the model on the lower left.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160009a&_requestid=1220647

Shrike325 wrote:To quote from the FAQ:

Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Nowhere in that rule did I see that it is specifically states as a single-handed weapon.

Or, are we now saying that Demiklaves from the DE book give +3 attacks when wielded separately?

A pair of Falchions. Two weapons. Unless otherwise stated, a weapon is one-handed.

From the Dark Eldar codex (wych weapons):

"Shardnet and impaler: a shardnet and impaler count as two close combat weapons."
"Hydra gauntlets: these count as two close combat weapons, however instead of granting +1 attack as normal,..."
"Razorflails: Razorflails count as two close combat weapons."

Each of those clarify that that single wargear entry counts as two close combat weapons even if (in the case of the gauntlets and flails) they are two identical weapons.
The rules as written (based on the OP's picture) don't specify that the "Nemesis Falchions" wargear entry counts as two CCWs. It might be clarified that they do, and thus grant two(2) +1 attack bonuses, but right now RAW would only be one(1) +1 attack bonus for a model that takes that upgrade.

If you can buy a single "Nemesis Falchion" then that would probably also remove the need for them to clarify that that piece of wargear ("Nemesis Falchions") "counts as two close combat weapons."

Shrike325 wrote:To quote from the FAQ:

Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Nowhere in that rule did I see that it is specifically states as a single-handed weapon.

Or, are we now saying that Demiklaves from the DE book give +3 attacks when wielded separately?

Demiklaives are never stated as being 2 Power Weapons or a pair like the other examples in this thread. They are simply Power Weapons that can be wielded individually, we never get how many there are, just their bonus. Incidentally, it's never stated that using them assembled make it 2-handed, either, so we don't know if individual Demiklaives are even 1-handed weapons. Either way, there is no way to argue by the rules for the +3 attacks. It's a different situation worded differently(unlike the 2 Craftworld Eldar examples argued here).

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg. 31:

"Demiklaives are power weapons that can either be wielded separately - adding +2 to the bearer's Attacks - or clasped together to form a much larger blade that confers +2 to the wielder's Strength (choose which to use each round before the bearer make his attacks)."

Now, with the relevant rules, can we stop using the Demiklaives argument?

As for the Falchions, to me, it depends on how the wording on purchasing them is. Do you purchase Nemesis Falchions(only +1) or a PAIR of Nemesis Falchions(+2).

the wording is "a Pair of Nemisis Falchions"

Grey Templar wrote:the wording is "a Pair of Nemisis Falchions"

I'mma have to side with the "You buy a pair of weapons that also gives +1A, resulting in +2 total" group.

Platuan4th wrote:
"Demiklaives are power weapons that can either be wielded separately - adding +2 to the bearer's Attacks - or clasped together to form a much larger blade that confers +2 to the wielder's Strength (choose which to use each round before the bearer make his attacks)."

Now, with the relevant rules, can we stop using the Demiklaives argument?

No. DemiklaiveS means there are at least two of them.

Rulebook say two of identical things, but falchions can't be wielded as one of them, they always go as Pair. And so all they do is give wielder +1 attack, not two. Go read C: DE Scissorhand - it specifically says its a pair of weapons that can be combined with something else for +1 attack.
ie its not two falchions, its pair\set of them with fixed bonus.

penek wrote:Rulebook say two of identical things, but falchions can't be wielded as one of them, they always go as Pair. And so all they do is give wielder +1 attack, not two. Go read C: DE Scissorhand - it specifically says its a pair of weapons that can be combined with something else for +1 attack.
ie its not two falchions, its pair\set of them with fixed bonus.

Pair - noun: Two similar or identical things taken together; often followed by of. Unless you want to argue that Nemesis Falchions is a binary noun?

The problem is "Nemesis Falchions" is the name of the single wargear entry. If you can buy a single Nemesis Falchion, then having a pair of them would indeed grant you the extra attack for two ccws (in addition to any other special rules that apply to the weapon). Otherwise, there should be a clarification like there is with the DE wych weapons.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

penek wrote:Rulebook say two of identical things, but falchions can't be wielded as one of them, they always go as Pair. And so all they do is give wielder +1 attack, not two. Go read C: DE Scissorhand - it specifically says its a pair of weapons that can be combined with something else for +1 attack.
ie its not two falchions, its pair\set of them with fixed bonus.

Pair - noun: Two similar or identical things taken together; often followed by of. Unless you want to argue that Nemesis Falchions is a binary noun?

Then fit "a Pair of Pants/Trousers" into your definition......

In English - yes, in game rules its nothing.
First of all because its nowhere stated that Falchion are single-handed special weapon from the beginning. So its just your assumption that it will give your additional +1 attack. It just something that look like pair of swords and give +1 attack, and use rules for nemesis weapons.
By RAW you need TWO Pairs of Falchions to get +1 attack for 2ccws

Falchion are single-handed special weapon if you look at the model GW made for them, it is clearly a pair, meaning two, single-handed special weapons.

Remember WYSIWYG!

DeathReaper wrote:Falchion are single-handed special weapon if you look at the model GW made for them, it is clearly a pair, meaning two, single-handed special weapons.

Remember WYSIWYG!

I don't care about your models, and i don't care about WYSIWYG. By GK codex its single entry for something that gives you +1 attack, its doesn't even say that its single handed or double handed weapon - all you got "force weapon that give +1 attack for that particular entry".
Don't confuse game rules with strange fantasies.

models buy a PAIR of nemisis falchions.


it is impossable to use two 2 handed weapons at once(and don't bring up Stormshields because they arn't weapons) therefore, they are a singlehanded weapon.

because there is a PAIR of weapons bought in this instance the model clearly has 2 Nemisis weapons.


Nemisis Weapons are defined as Force Weapons with additional rules for the different types.

Force Weapons are Power Weapons.

Power Weapons, unless otherwise specified, are single handed CCWs.


therefore, the model with Nemisis Falchions has a pair of Force Weapons that have an additional rule granting +1A.

Power weapons unless otherwise specified is only do not allow Armor saves, and its have nothing with one or two handed it is.
I will agree with you if you show me quote from Rulebook.

helgrenze wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

penek wrote:Rulebook say two of identical things, but falchions can't be wielded as one of them, they always go as Pair. And so all they do is give wielder +1 attack, not two. Go read C: DE Scissorhand - it specifically says its a pair of weapons that can be combined with something else for +1 attack.
ie its not two falchions, its pair\set of them with fixed bonus.

Pair - noun: Two similar or identical things taken together; often followed by of. Unless you want to argue that Nemesis Falchions is a binary noun?

Then fit "a Pair of Pants/Trousers" into your definition......

They're a binary noun, there's no singular of trousers.

penek wrote:In English - yes, in game rules its nothing.
First of all because its nowhere stated that Falchion are single-handed special weapon from the beginning. So its just your assumption that it will give your additional +1 attack. It just something that look like pair of swords and give +1 attack, and use rules for nemesis weapons.
By RAW you need TWO Pairs of Falchions to get +1 attack for 2ccws

Weapons are one-handed unless something else is stated...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Weapons are one-handed unless something else is stated...

Where did you find that? In your dreams? All you have is reference to Force Weapons from Rulebook. (which again just say that they don't allow armor saves)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

penek wrote:Rulebook say two of identical things, but falchions can't be wielded as one of them, they always go as Pair. And so all they do is give wielder +1 attack, not two. Go read C: DE Scissorhand - it specifically says its a pair of weapons that can be combined with something else for +1 attack.
ie its not two falchions, its pair\set of them with fixed bonus.

Pair - noun: Two similar or identical things taken together; often followed by of. Unless you want to argue that Nemesis Falchions is a binary noun?

Then fit "a Pair of Pants/Trousers" into your definition......

They're a binary noun, there's no singular of trousers.

Ok.. now Can you buy a SINGLE Falchion for your GKs? if so, what is the points cost... 2.5 points?
It is possible to buy a single lightening claw, if you so desire.

nowhere, anywhere, are any weapons explicity stated as being 1 handed.

However, sopme weapons are explicity stated as being 2 handed(and not able to be used with other 2 handed weapons or single handed weapons)



Proove to me that Force or Power weapons are NOT single handed.

Power or Force weapon is just a effect that negate armor saves and in second entry give you ability on Psy test to do ID
with same success they can be used on pistols (but they have Ap for this)
ps. by your logic - everything that shine are gold.

penek wrote:Power or Force weapon is just a effect that negate armor saves and in second entry give you ability on Psy test to do ID
with same success they can be used on pistols (but they have Ap for this)
ps. by your logic - everything that shine are gold.

Would that be the same pistols that you're only allowed to use another 1-handed weapon in CC with? Also, power weapons, and by extension force weapons, are not "just an effect that negates armour saves". They're special close combat weapons, and as such grant a model wielding them in concert with another ccw an extra attack. Given that that is what this thread is all about I find it hard to understand how you could miss that.

By my logic, everything that shines MIGHT be gold, but isn't unless explicitly stated.

I was with you, penek, until you started arguing that a "power weapon" isn't a one-handed ccw that ignores armor saves. Many special weapons state that they are power weapons, *and then* go onto elaborate on any further abilities that they have (instant kill, increasing another stat, being two-haned, etc). The DE klaives, for example, state specifically that they are two-handed.


With such a small entry for the Nemesis Falchions, it's hard to tell if they had intended them to simply be the GK equivalent of BP/CCW, or if they wanted them to have an extra attack in addition to the bonus for being armed with two ccws. I'd lean toward the latter, but it's not cut and dry either way.

Judging by the point cost, I'd hope they intentioned for the latter, because they're just not worth taking at all unless you get +2 attacks.

Time (faq) will show.

penek wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Falchion are single-handed special weapon if you look at the model GW made for them, it is clearly a pair, meaning two, single-handed special weapons.

Remember WYSIWYG!

I don't care about your models, and i don't care about WYSIWYG. By GK codex its single entry for something that gives you +1 attack, its doesn't even say that its single handed or double handed weapon - all you got "force weapon that give +1 attack for that particular entry".
Don't confuse game rules with strange fantasies.

WYSIWYG IS rules...... P.47 this says you should care about models and WYSIWYG. the model comes armed with two CCW'S that is the way GW modeled it, that is the way they intended it, even if it is not super-clear to some people in the rules.

All close combat weapons are single-handed unless specifically stated otherwise, as per the FAQ, they are bought as a Pair of single-handed weapons with the special quality of granting an extra attack, and the 'two of the same special weapon' rules tell us they get a bonus attack for wielding the pair in CC.


Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules

Furthermore, Attack is different than attack in the rulebook. Attack modifies the profile while attack does not modify the profile.

Bonus, Bonus, Bonus attack, the BRB give a bonus attack, not a +1 Attack. While the end result is the same, it not the same as a +1 Attack.

One give you +1 Attack, while the other gives a bonus to your number of attacks. There not even close to the samething, dispite the effect they give being the same. Like I said before WORDING is IMPORTANT.

It's not that it's not 2 weapons, just that the +1 attack in the description *could be* the same +1 attack as for having 2 weapons...

That's what the discussion is about.

Slinky wrote:It's not that it's not 2 weapons, just that the +1 attack in the description *could be* the same +1 attack as for having 2 weapons...

That's what the discussion is about.

But you don't get +1 attack for 2 CCW, you get a Bonus attack. Different wording, different ability.