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The 3 images the OP posted, those are amazing models.

Then scrolling down, the bare thonged asses, high heels, and school girl lifted skirts... i rolled my eyes at those.

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Mastiff: you've pretty much exemplified my point there. Why do we need the models showing skin or cheesecake poses when there's plenty of troops which look professional, yet still maintain the manga/anime aspect that Infinity is built upon?

Because people like them. Why do you object to other people liking something you don't?

I don't object to people liking them. I object to the fact that they are forced down your throat by dint of being in the range.

As I said previously, you are entirely free to substitute a more conservatively-dressed and posed model for a model you find offensive. You never need to purchase or field a single model you object to. Why you object to it is entirely your business, and entirely legitimate.

And yet, as noted elsewhere: Infinity is not a game where options are plentiful. This isn't Games Workshop with a huge range to choose from or plastic kits to bastardize or whatnot. You're going to be stuck with these models for awhile as Corvus Belli is up to their neck updating things.

Why they don't just err on the side of practicality(and business sense) and create a "collectors" and a "gamers" range is beyond me.

Kanluwen wrote:They're the fact that the models don't fit within the range proper, and for some asinine reason this is considered acceptable because "Infinity has anime inspiration!"

I totally agree with this.

I'm no fan of anime in general, but anime fans constantly insist that "anime" or "manga" is a medium where things can be taken seriously or comically or anywhere in between. Like live-action, it's a medium.

Just because you embrace one facet of the medium doesn't mean you have to incorporate all facets of the medium. Using "anime" as an excuse for oversexualized pinup models striking poses in a professional and emotionless army makes as much sense as using "Hollywood" as an excuse for carelessly shoving a RomCom sex-scene into a gritty war movie. Same medium, different genre, wholly inappropriate.

Some "anime" tropes work. The whole Anime Chibi-Head syndrome arguably makes sense when you strap a bomb to it and give it to the faction known for genetic/sexual/psychotic deviance. However, there's a reason given for this silliness. The Odalisques are given a reason for being sexy. The pinup models in Ariadna are just there because anime,

JudgeShamgar wrote:
Double standard? You play miniature wargames. Your little plastic/metal units kill your opponents. You have to have some kind of heartlessness or you would not find any enjoyment in this as a hobby.

Wait what.

I know some odd points have been thrown about in this thread, but this is a little odd for me, above all so far. It's a fanatsy game, as in not real, no one dies, no one has died. Even if you take all the fluff to do with the 40K universe, that still equals zero actual people died. Your reactions are about people that do not, or never will exist.

If you are following a wargame based on WW2, or some such, then there would be some kind of merit (if a very weak one) to the point, (also one of the reasons Aurelia won't consider playing something like Flames of War) as actual people have suffered and died as a result of battles being recreated, but in a fantasy game. That exists only in the minds of its creators and players, it really makes no sense.

It's on a similar vein of the idea that people in the media tote around on playing violent video games and how it makes us all lining up to take part in the next shooting massacre, and even then its pretty much nonsense, and thats when playing within a detailed 3-d world, where you do in effect 'pull the trigger' each time you kill a graphical script on the screen. The kind of people who would do things based on the experiences in a game, would find a way to do them anyways, they are just wired that way.

The idea that you need to be 'callous' (the world I think you where looking for) in any kind of way to enjoy these games, is pretty laughable to me.

Isn't this debate starting to wander increasingly into strange, slightly hypocritical and badly defined concepts of acceptability based on toy soldiers? I think perhaps there is too much being read into our choices as "generals" of our tiny metal militaries. Pop psychology rubbish abounds.

Thus: Liking scantily clad, provocatively posed miniatures does not make one a proto-rapist, a sexist, or any other 'ist.'. Likewise, playing a GAME with teeny models does not mean that one is a heartless monster, a future war-criminal, or anything of the sort.

Next up: All the Flames of War players using SS units are declared to be actual Nazis and war criminals? All the Soviet players are now de facto Communists?

Melissia wrote:

JudgeShamgar wrote:You know going in that some of your units will die.

I know my grandmother's going to die too. Everyone dies, it's a matter of trying to make the best of what's left of their lives. The main difference is the guardsmen have a job to do (and as their commander, it's my job to ensure they accomplish this objective as efficiently as possible, keeping them alive if at all possible) while my grandmother is long since retired, lol.

That's not heartless. There's a great amount of heart there.

Nod to your point, although grandmothers and solders are worlds apart. Hmmm...perhaps I'm the one who is heartless. AGGGGG GAAA BLLLLGGGGHHH!!!!! (Found face down at his desk, dead from a heart attack.)

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Next up: All the Flames of War players using SS units are declared to be actual Nazis and war criminals? All the Soviet players are now de facto Communists?

You're too late, already happened two pages ago.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Isn't this debate starting to wander increasingly into strange, slightly hypocritical and badly defined concepts of acceptability based on toy soldiers? I think perhaps there is too much being read into our choices as "generals" of our tiny metal militaries. Pop psychology rubbish abounds.

Thus: Liking scantily clad, provocatively posed miniatures does not make one a proto-rapist, a sexist, or any other 'ist.'. Likewise, playing a GAME with teeny models does not mean that one is a heartless monster, a future war-criminal, or anything of the sort.

Next up: All the Flames of War players using SS units are declared to be actual Nazis and war criminals? All the Soviet players are now de facto Communists?

Aside from your complete irrelevance to the topic being discussed, you really invalidated your entire argument by downplaying everyone's hobby on a forum dedicated to that hobby.

The topic being discussed isn't whether or not "sexy" miniatures are appropriate per se or whether it makes people into rapists or whatever you misread. It's about whether sexualized models striking up pinup poses in an otherwise serious range are appropriate.
Put quite simply, people are arguing whether or not unfittingly sexualized models are fitting for a range.

JudgeShamgar wrote:You know going in that some of your units will die.

Welcome to the not-real-world where my Eldrad Ulthran has been 'killed' countless times in petty skirmishes... and that's years after he officially died in the fluff. I think I'll field him in yet another game next week for funsies.
Some of us like a bit of believability in our wargames. Believability =/= realism.

would be quite interesting to have a poll on this thread, see what the majority of people think about the subject

Kanluwen wrote:No actually, it doesn't. None of the objections raised by myself or Slarg or Melissia are based simply upon "Hurr sexy models are bad". They're the fact that the models don't fit within the range proper, and for some asinine reason this is considered acceptable because "Infinity has anime inspiration!".

If that is indeed true that Infinity is inspired by Anime and Manga, you realize that Anime generally has some "cheesecake" elements to it and it's not inconsistent at all.

Kanluwen wrote:It's like if the Space Marines suddenly started fielding Assault Marines in bananahammocks and rollerblades, with wifebeaters on. It ruins the whole visual tie of the army--and it's not something that can simply be fixed with a paintjob.

Why on earth would I care about that? If it was well converted and painted I think that would by hysterical.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Mastiff: you've pretty much exemplified my point there. Why do we need the models showing skin or cheesecake poses when there's plenty of troops which look professional, yet still maintain the manga/anime aspect that Infinity is built upon?

Because people like them. Why do you object to other people liking something you don't?

I don't object to people liking them. I object to the fact that they are forced down your throat by dint of being in the range.

Who's the bad man making you buy these models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Why they don't just err on the side of practicality(and business sense) and create a "collectors" and a "gamers" range is beyond me.

Because scantily clad women don't move product.

Oh, wait...

Absolutionis wrote:The topic being discussed isn't whether or not "sexy" miniatures are appropriate per se or whether it makes people into rapists or whatever you misread. It's about whether sexualized models striking up pinup poses in an otherwise serious range are appropriate.
Put quite simply, people are arguing whether or not unfittingly sexualized models are fitting for a range.

I want to publicly apologize for bringing feelings or mental inclination into the discussion.

That said, and more to the point on topic, if the entire unit or army is based on this premise it may be fitting. For example GW Witch Elves. All female, all lightly clothed, but they all look the same, in the same unit. Infinity's issue is that they are inserting these type of models into a range where they mostly would be "eye candy", and that is where people have the problem. I do think they don't really fit like that.

BTW the Witch Elf on the far right in the GW picture has much the same pose as some of the Infinity models.

Cryage wrote:The 3 images the OP posted, those are amazing models.

Then scrolling down, the bare thonged asses, high heels, and school girl lifted skirts... i rolled my eyes at those.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thouht as well.

Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, as noted elsewhere: Infinity is not a game where options are plentiful. This isn't Games Workshop with a huge range to choose from or plastic kits to bastardize or whatnot. You're going to be stuck with these models for awhile as Corvus Belli is up to their neck updating things.

Why they don't just err on the side of practicality(and business sense) and create a "collectors" and a "gamers" range is beyond me.

Again, people like them. You don't, but why do you assume you are in the majority, when CV's sales figures say the opposite? CV has said that the "sexy" females are their best sellers. How does that fit your contention that selling them is bad business sense?

People aren't attracted to sci-fi because of "practicality". It's the fantasy they enjoy. You're suggesting that other people should only be attracted to the aspects of fantasy that appeal to you.

JudgeShamgar wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:The topic being discussed isn't whether or not "sexy" miniatures are appropriate per se or whether it makes people into rapists or whatever you misread. It's about whether sexualized models striking up pinup poses in an otherwise serious range are appropriate.
Put quite simply, people are arguing whether or not unfittingly sexualized models are fitting for a range.

I want to publicly apologize for bringing feelings or mental inclination into the discussion.

That said, and more to the point on topic, if the entire unit or army is based on this premise it may be fitting. For example GW Witch Elves. All female, all lightly clothed, but they all look the same, in the same unit. Infinity's issue is that they are inserting these type of models into a range where they mostly would be "eye candy", and that is where people have the problem. I do think they don't really fit like that.

BTW the Witch Elf on the far right in the GW picture has much the same pose as some of the Infinity models.

And I agree with you, but the makers of the game obviously think otherwise and since it is THEIR game, then THEY are the ones to decide what fits and what doesn't. And as this thread shows, there are allot of people that agree with CB and that like that serious / eye candy mix.

Don't like it? Then don't play with it but stop implying that your opinion is worth more than that of the creators of the game. (this isn't directed at you personally JudgeShamgar)

People also like the backstreet boys, should we all of the sudden stop any criticism of their music just because other people like them?

I know people don't like it when you criticise their favorite company but geeze.

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, as noted elsewhere: Infinity is not a game where options are plentiful. This isn't Games Workshop with a huge range to choose from or plastic kits to bastardize or whatnot. You're going to be stuck with these models for awhile as Corvus Belli is up to their neck updating things.

Why they don't just err on the side of practicality(and business sense) and create a "collectors" and a "gamers" range is beyond me.

Again, people like them. You don't, but why do you assume you are in the majority, when CV's sales figures say the opposite? CV has said that the "sexy" females are their best sellers. How does that fit your contention that selling them is bad business sense?

People aren't attracted to sci-fi because of "practicality". It's the fantasy they enjoy. You're suggesting that other people should only be attracted to the aspects of fantasy that appeal to you.

Again, people might like them but that doesn't guarantee they're being sold for the game.

Forge World sells quite a few Titans, but that doesn't mean everyone plays Apocalypse does it?

Kanluwen wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Because people like them. Why do you object to other people liking something you don't?

I don't object to people liking them. I object to the fact that they are forced down your throat by dint of being in the range.

Stop being dramatic. You feel you are the final arbiter in what Infinity is and isn't. CB has that responsibility, not you. They are in the range because other people want them to be there. If they didn't sell, CB wouldn't make them. Your responsibility is to pick models that suit you, not to ask that offending models be removed so others can't have them.

Mastiff wrote:
Stop being dramatic. You feel you are the final arbiter in what Infinity is and isn't. CV has that responsibility, not you. They are in the range because other people want them to be there. If they didn't sell, CV wouldn't make them.

Pssst... Its CB (Corvus Belli), not CV...

Melissia wrote:
"Being sexy" has very little power in a warzone. That's just a myth created by male fantasy.

dogma wrote:Well, sure, but how many Infinity miniatures are merely sexy?

Given the number that are standing in pposes that are more likely to hurt themselves than to hurt the enemies? Quite a few I think.

Why are we assuming that the sexy pose is their wartime pose? Like all things done without animation we are looking at a still. A single moment captured in time for each mini. Maybe she was posing for the security camera as a joke with dead enemies scattered around her feet. Maybe its from her interview/spread she did with Modern Badass Issue 45 in the year 4374. Maybe she is sending a cheesecake image to her husband back on Volutunis 4 so the pose and lack of clothing is very intentional.

Its like thinking that the AOBR SM commander never puts his sword down or can even fire his bolter cause he isn't holding it by the grip/trigger. Why is it my 30 space wolves constantly walk on the only patches of dirt and grass while traversing a space hulk. Why does that damn sickly tree constantly follow that unit of pikemen around (someone modeled a tree on the corner of a movement tray).

There are somethings that you just have to go with the flow and do not make any sense at all from game to game.

Just looking at thread topic-is it suitable? I guess so because we have 10 pages of discussion about it, and more than one company has lines of models with "sexy" units. Is it completely inappropriate? For some it is, for others not so much.

Final word: If I'm playing a game with these type of models I want the "sexy" one to be the last one left in the unit just so I can defeat the enemy with a halter top, high heel, pony tailed, M16 toting uber babe.

Jayden63 wrote:Why are we assuming that the sexy pose is their wartime pose?

Because of the models they're standing next to.

"I'm gonna stand here and thrust my hips out and flip my skirt up while my friends are all firing their weapons at the enemy!"

Kanluwen wrote:
Again, people might like them but that doesn't guarantee they're being sold for the game.

Forge World sells quite a few Titans, but that doesn't mean everyone plays Apocalypse does it?

Absolutely correct. And the correlation is that while some are bought just for painting, the remainder are bought as a gaming piece. Why should the fact that some people aren't going to game with a particular model prevent everyone else from using it?

I'm getting the feeling that this boils down to people saying "I want them to make models that I want to buy and play with" and then the ones that like cheesecake are basically saying "no screw you I like the models they already have!"

Meh.

Melissia wrote:"I'm gonna stand here and thrust my hips out and flip my skirt up while my friends are all firing their weapons at the enemy!"

I'm having a significant problem not making an off-color comment about your imaginary quote.

So, everyone is saying "I want them to make models that I want to buy and play with"?

JudgeShamgar wrote:

Melissia wrote:"I'm gonna stand here and thrust my hips out and flip my skirt up while my friends are all firing their weapons at the enemy!"

I'm having a significant problem not making an off-color comment about your imaginary quote.

Yes, the model really is crap, isn't it?

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Why are we assuming that the sexy pose is their wartime pose?

Because of the models they're standing next to.

"I'm gonna stand here and thrust my hips out and flip my skirt up while my friends are all firing their weapons at the enemy!"

But they aren't the only one posing. Fill out the unit completely. Now fill out the army. Now put your army against another army. Suddenly you have a whole mess of models on the table just standing around striking a pose interspersed with those trying to fire a gun or swing a sword. They only really stand out because your looking at a single picture of 3 models and 1 happens to be posing for the camera. However in a unit of 10 of those same 3 models, the 3 that strike the pose will get pretty lost in the 7 that are doing stuff.

dogma wrote:So, everyone is saying "I want them to make models that I want to buy and play with"?

Isn't that what Customers do?

Jayden63 wrote:But they aren't the only one posing.

...

Noooooooooo... reaaaaaaaaally... it almost feels like... *gasp* I ALREADY SAID THAT?!?!?

dogma wrote:So, everyone is saying "I want them to make models that I want to buy and play with"?

But people are already buying their models so....what does that say?

JudgeShamgar wrote:But people are already buying their models so....what does that say?

I didn't buy the models in question. They suck.