Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I live in the province of the Netherlands that has probably the most drugs.
Around 150.000 people in it, and they find a few Canabis plantages every week here
And I dont need a gun to feel safe.
Beat that, creeps.

Is it the third amenment "Right to bare to arms" or is it the second. Anyways, I love how Americans always cry wolf and come back to the third or second amendment. We have a right to bare arms and defend our families and homes!. Bullcrap, the amendment says right to bare arms... It actually go's a little something like this

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

A Militia America... not a single human being walking around with a .45 cal pistol or .9mm the point of the amendment was for the state or region to defend its selves against an invading force or movement, mainly the English during the time. ITS SAYS NOTHING about "Yes you can carry fire arms around to defend your "personl self" and/or family.

Here it is. Don't carry guns and less people will get killed, period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thenoobbomb wrote:I live in the province of the Netherlands that has probably the most drugs.
Around 150.000 people in it, and they find a few Canabis plantages every week here
And I dont need a gun to feel safe.
Beat that, creeps.

I like you

thenoobbomb wrote:I live in the province of the Netherlands that has probably the most drugs.
Around 150.000 people in it, and they find a few Canabis plantages every week here
And I dont need a gun to feel safe.
Beat that, creeps.

Because you live in The Netherlands. Hell I wouldn't even bother locking my doors if I lived there. We don't need guns to feel safe, we own them because we can. It is better to be prepared for the worst then not at all.

I really did not want to bring this up, but someone went and done used the tired old "-YOU- don't have any right to keep and bear arms, its for the MILITIA!" argument. (Also, you may wish to read up on a minor US supreme court case, DC Vs. Heller.)

10 U.S.C. § 311 : US Code - Section 311: Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

I am of the appropriate gender, between the ages of 17 and 45, and I am a US citizen.

Now give me my M16.

ParatrooperSimon wrote:Here it is. Don't carry guns and less people will get killed, period.

Flamey image removed MT11 (kinda literal this time)

thenoobbomb wrote:I live in the province of the Netherlands that has probably the most drugs.
Around 150.000 people in it, and they find a few Canabis plantages every week here
And I dont need a gun to feel safe.
Beat that, creeps.

I'm willing to bet you don't have quite as large a gang problem as we do here.

You don't carry a gun to feel safe. You carry a gun for the same reason you have a family emergency evacuation plan, a rope ladder in your upper-story room, a spare tire in your trunk. Chances are you'll never have to use them. If a situation arises where you do, you'll regret not having them.

I didn't read all 10 pages, but here goes:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/04/justice/oklahoma-intruder-shooting/index.html?iref=allsearch <--- Case of someone who would be much worse of had she not "taken care" of the problem. Also, I am of the opinion that I LOVE Oklahoma's "If I shoot someone who is breaking into my house, and I kill them, THEY go down on murder charges as well, instead of me" law.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-seven-myths-of-gun-control-richard-poe/1004458480?ean=9780761525585&itm=1&usri=%22seven+myths+of+gun+control <--- read this book a few years back, very good read, especially for those who think that owning a firearm is the worst thing a "civilized" people can do.


In most books and articles that I have read would suggest, in America, owning a gun and storing inside your home does not create an "arms race" between you and the criminal element. Rather, it makes the criminal types typically think twice about hitting a home, especially if they do not know whether there are firearms in the place.

While I do not currently own a firearm, when I return "home" I will be purchasing at least one. Owning a firearm as a measure of "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst" just makes sense.

The 'easiest' and best way to ensure kids don't kill themselves or their little friends? Teach them from the earliest age how to act around a firearm, and how to treat a firearm. I was raised to treat any firearm as being completely loaded, and never point it at anything I did not intend to shoot, don't put a finger anywhere near the trigger unless I'm ready to actually shoot, etc. If people are raised properly around a firearm, there are much less risks inherent in trusting them with one.

Guns are dangerous just like any other tool.

They take great respect, responsibility and education to handle.

They are not toy guns. You don't pretend to be a cowboy in the wild west.

I personally feel everyone should have a gun for safety. I own 7 guns. Luckily I never had to use one to protect myself from a home invasion but I am a bit of a paranoid with home security. Bars on all my windows, steel doors, and a few other gadgets.

As for defending my self with fists or a knife? Ha! I'm not chuck Norris, plus I do not want to take the chance of the intruder owning a gun himself.

Outside of the whole protection thing, I like the hobby of it as well. Gun shows, target practice, hunting.

Though I prefer to use bows and crossbows when hunting. Even if I have a less than 1% success rate at killing something with bow.


I think a better question would be, to what extent should buying weapons be legal? I am aware of the whole second amendment, but is owning a grenade launcher needed?

What are your thoughts?

Also lock boxes.

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:Also lock boxes.

I have a gun safe and trigger locks on all my guns.

I also have a tomahawk I smoke out of.

Anyone up for a hit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:Im pretty sure that a million armed jews would have been quite a problem

Yea but, as Dogma noted, what if they were a million midgets with Kentucky Rifles?

I would like to see someone paint a picture of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:
.....Are you being serious here? 0.o

Child Pornography in any form is paedophelia and a crime throughout the western world. ...I wouldn't go about voicing that view if I were you.

I'm being serious. It isn't illegal to be a pedophile, simply to molest children. Photographic CP involves the victimization of a child, so I place it on par with molesting children. Drawn CP strikes me as something that may actually help pedophiles avoid molesting children, as a form of release, and does not victimize a child (unless a child was used as a nude subject).

I am slight confused (and I'm sorry for being off topic)

What you are saying is it is not illegal for someone to say they are attracted sexually to kids. Just saying it, nothing physical, no touching kids or having images on your computer?

Piston Honda wrote:

I think a better question would be, to what extent should buying weapons be legal? I am aware of the whole second amendment, but is owning a grenade launcher needed?

What are your thoughts?

Under the 2nd, as written, there shouldn't be any limit. If I wanted to buy 200 Mk.19 40mm Grenade Launchers, and store a few thousand rounds for each, then it should be no problem.


However, I know that this would really REALLY be a bad idea. I personally think that there is something of a distinction to be made from "military grade" weapons, and non-military weapons. SAWs, M240Bs and the like should remain as they are, in the military to be used by trained professionals. The M-16/M-4 or AK-47 type weapons, I have no problem with the private citizen owning, because more often than not, the versions that can be purchased from vendors, are made to be single semi-automatic, rather than fully-auto. Sure they were still designed with a purely military intent, but there are many folks who either were in the military and enjoy owning/firing them, and there are still more collectors who enjoy the look of them.

The problem with some firearm legislation, is that they place several rules for what qualifies as an "assault rifle", and yet certain muzzle-loading rifles fall into this category because they meet at least 2 distinctions in the legislation, and yet, other rifles do not (which many people would call an assault rifle), IIRC, the M1 Garand is not classified as an assault rifle because of the clip type used, even though it has a bayonet plug on the barrel end.

thenoobbomb wrote:The biggest reason so many criminals over there have so many guns because they are allowed too.
If your not feeling safe, get better locks on your door and window.

Most crimes committed with a gun are obtained illegally. Over 80 percent.

Now I will say there are some issues we have in some areas how anyone can obtain a gun. I don't see an issue for someone to go through a mandatory background check.

Wouldn't sell a gun to a repeat wife beater or a guy just out of prison for attempted murder.

Agreed, I dont have a problem with background checks and the paper work either, to me its a necessary precaution. But you guys seem to not realize, CRIMINALS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUY/OWN FIREARMS.

But the problem with this, is they are criminals, which means they break the law and do CRIME. So yes, they break into peoples homes, and steal things........like FIREARMS. And no saying if we just got rid of the guns, they wouldnt have them either! Is just a stupid argument. They will still carry firearms, and still use firearms, and would then leave law abiding citizens without a means to protect themselves.

biccat wrote:

The risks of having a gun in the home include:

Accidents. Children aged 5 to 14 in the USA have 11 times the likelihood of being killed accidentally with a gun than children in other developed countries. Residents from the 15 US states with highest gun ownership were 6 times more likely to die in a gun accident than those from the 6 states with the lowest gun ownership. For every fatal gun accident, more than 10 people are injured seriously enough in gun accidents to require hospital ER treatment.

Don't you think it's surprising that kids in the US are only 11 times more likely to be killed accidentally with a gun than in places where guns are all but illegal to own? But this doesn't really give an idea of the actual risk.

But it does indicate that guns aren't handled safely.

Suicides. Between 2003 and 2007, an average of 46 Americans committed suicide with guns every day. Guns are clearly the leading instrument in successful suicide attempts. Numerous studies have shown that guns in the home are associated with significantly higher rates of suicide, especially for adolescents and young adults.

And this isn't a risk of owning a gun, it's a risk of committing suicide. Are gun owners more or less likely to have suicide?

Answer is in the quote.

Homicides. Between 2003 and 2007, an average of 33 Americans were murdered with guns every day. Over 2/3 of all homicides were done with firearms. Of 400 homicide victims from 3 US metropolitan areas who were killed in their homes, over half died from gunshot wounds; in 95% of cases, the perpetrator was not a stranger – in only 14% of cases, was there evidence of forced entry. The presence of a gun in the home was strongly associated with an increased risk for homicide in the home.

Quoting homicide statistics doesn't mean there's a risk of owning a gun, it means there's a risk of homicide.

You're right about that, though looking at the UK and US, the US has a higher murder rate and a large proportion of killings using guns. You can put this down to simply having a more violent society and that the guns are just the tool that immediately comes to hand.

Intimidation. Studies of battered women reveal that guns are used to intimidate and coerce; one analysis of Californian shelter data shows this to be a factor in 2/3 of cases.

This isn't a risk of owning a gun, it's a risk of battered women. Are women in a gun-owning home more or less likely to be intimidated, controlling for other variables?

No I'll give you that, it's correlation rather than causation.

And none of these actually support your point, because they're not actually relevant to the 'safety' of owning a gun.

What, apart from the fact that suicides are higher? That higher gun ownership correlated with a greater frequency gun related injuries? If we take this quote,

Are people with guns more or less likely to have kids die from accidents in the home?

I don't know actually. But this line of argument appears to be that that perhaps overall numbers of domestic accidents are unchanged with gun ownership, so the fact that people with guns are far more likely to be injured by them doesn't matter, or something. The fact that kids are apparently more likely to be injured by guns in regions with higher gun ownership does somewhat suggest that they aren't handled or stored safely.


But anyway, I notice you missed the other part of my post dealing with the necessity for gun ownership which if you've been reading my posts so far is the other strong thread to my argument.

However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger

A study of all gunshot injuries in Galveston, Texas, over a 3-year period found only 2 that were related to residential burglary or robbery. In one, the homeowner was shot and killed by a burglar; in the other, the homeowner shot the burglar. During the same interval, guns in the home were involved in the death and injury of more than 100 residents, family members, friends, or acquaintances

------------

Deterrence. Lower crime rates have been reported in states with higher levels of household gun ownership. The reverse is also reported in other studies.

Thwarting Crimes. In fact, actual use of a gun is extremely rare – in about 1% of home invasions and 0.1% in sexual assaults, according to police reports; and the reports indicate that a lot of these are inappropriate use of the gun. And a poorly-trained gun owner is even more unlikely to use the weapon effectively, even when self-defense is involved.

Piston Honda wrote:
Most crimes committed with a gun are obtained illegally. Over 80 percent.

Now I will say there are some issues we have in some areas how anyone can obtain a gun. I don't see an issue for someone to go through a mandatory background check.

Wouldn't sell a gun to a repeat wife beater or a guy just out of prison for attempted murder.

Exactly. I don't think that the US needs to ban guns, rather just enforce the background checks that are already in place. There is also the whole deal with a store's right to "refuse service to anyone" which has proved quite useful in recent months for many establishments.

dogma wrote:

CptJake wrote:

CptJake wrote:
Again, who the feth are you or anyone else to give a toss about what anyone else collects/buys/has?

So you endorse the freedom of people to possess child porn?

Nice try . Look at my earlier post in this thread:

CptJake wrote:0Why should anyone give a toss what another free person decides to own/collect as long as the items collected are not themselves the result of harming another human (kiddie porn comes to mind)?

I would have thought guns illegally acquired are not done so though shops but bought second hand or just stolen. Seems a bit silly to try and trick a gun store into selling you something in case the inform the police.

Piston Honda wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:The biggest reason so many criminals over there have so many guns because they are allowed too.
If your not feeling safe, get better locks on your door and window.

Most crimes committed with a gun are obtained illegally. Over 80 percent.
...

Have you got a source for that?

I would be interested to see the data.

Gun control just means that you have a good grouping at 25 yards.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Piston Honda wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:The biggest reason so many criminals over there have so many guns because they are allowed too.
If your not feeling safe, get better locks on your door and window.

Most crimes committed with a gun are obtained illegally. Over 80 percent.
...

Have you got a source for that?

I would be interested to see the data.

I would too, as a supporter of gun rights I would love for that to be true.
As a person who believes facts are paramount it sounds patently false.

thenoobbomb wrote:Beat that, creeps

I should just start ignoring people who throw insults around so readily...

Melissia wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Beat that, creeps

I should just start ignoring people who throw insults around so readily...

Yellow triangle of Friendship Mel.

I will beat that: all true Dutchmen moved to Amsterdam and Manhattan...Montana; where we have guns

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf

I've looked around at several websites that claim the 80% number in regards to percentages of gun crimes committed using illegal firearms, but I haven't been able to nail down the source material. The link does show that most people arrested for gun crimes either did obtain their gun illegally or found that it was very easy to obtain a gun illegally.

My search found:

FBI reports:
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from –

■a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
■a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
■family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
In other words, it ain’t legal purchases from firearms dealers in legal shops or gun shows that criminals use.”

from: http://www.buyagunday.net/2009/sources-of-guns-used-in-crimes-fbi-report/ which references a 1997 study.

This PBS article lays out a case that most guns used in crimes are illegally obtained: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

The article goes into straw buyers and other methods used to illegally obtain guns.

Another article:

Ninety-five percent of US police commanders and sheriffs believe most criminals obtain their firearms from illegal sources, according to a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. Coincidentally, data released by the US Department of Justice appears to confirm this claim by our nation's police executives. The DOJ study refutes the conventional wisdom that guns used in criminal acts are purchased at retail stores or gun shows.

from: http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/k/kouri/2004/kouri112904.htm

CptJake wrote:My search found:

FBI reports:
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from –

■a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
■a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
■family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
In other words, it ain’t legal purchases from firearms dealers in legal shops or gun shows that criminals use.”

from: http://www.buyagunday.net/2009/sources-of-guns-used-in-crimes-fbi-report/ which references a 1997 study.

This PBS article lays out a case that most guns used in crimes are illegally obtained: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

The article goes into straw buyers and other methods used to illegally obtain guns.

Another article:

Ninety-five percent of US police commanders and sheriffs believe most criminals obtain their firearms from illegal sources, according to a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. Coincidentally, data released by the US Department of Justice appears to confirm this claim by our nation's police executives. The DOJ study refutes the conventional wisdom that guns used in criminal acts are purchased at retail stores or gun shows.

from: http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/k/kouri/2004/kouri112904.htm

Good find CptJake.

I am genuinely and happily surprised.

Indeed, that seems like some good sources there.

Especially: "Ninety-five percent of US police commanders and sheriffs believe most criminals obtain their firearms from illegal sources, according to a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police."

That is... a supermajority to say the least.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf

I've looked around at several websites that claim the 80% number in regards to percentages of gun crimes committed using illegal firearms, but I haven't been able to nail down the source material. The link does show that most people arrested for gun crimes either did obtain their gun illegally or found that it was very easy to obtain a gun illegally.

That doesn't surprise me much as it is the same in the UK.

The proportion of the following categories would be interesting to know.

1. Rate of crimes involving guns versus overall crime rate.
2. Rate of crimes involving illegal guns compared with rate of crimes involving use of a legal gun by the perpetrator.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The proportion of the following categories would be interesting to know.

1. Rate of crimes involving guns versus overall crime rate.
2. Rate of crimes involving illegal guns compared with rate of crimes involving use of a legal gun by the perpetrator.

In regards to number 2, do you mean a situation where one of a couple things (examples) happens:

a. Group of armed robbers robs a bank using AK-47s and other weapons that are generally illegal for the general public to own (as in L.A.)
b. a guy breaks into a house with a Glock 40 that was "acquired" from another place, with the intent of knocking it over and taking any valuables.


I think that either situation 'type' would greatly influence numbers involved.

thenoobbomb wrote:I live in the province of the Netherlands that has probably the most drugs.
Around 150.000 people in it, and they find a few Canabis plantages every week here
And I dont need a gun to feel safe.
Beat that, creeps.

How's the inner city heroin or crack cocaine problem there? How's the street gang problem there?

Both are pretty rampant here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and I'm positive that it is an issue in many other cities. Muggings, beatings, and home invasions happen all the time here. I'd rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.