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BaronIveagh wrote:Why not just ask HBMC? It is, after all, what he does.

Maybe I already did.

BaronIveagh wrote:The writers at GW don't care a rat's ass about anything SoB and didn't want to be bothered writing a full codex in 5th so they copy pasted some stuff that sounded good to Matt Ward.
Remember, at the time BI and FFG wrote the SoB material, 4th's fluff was still in, so their material actually meshed quite well.

Actually, those parts surprisingly were not directly copypasted but newly written or reworded. Though if they had wanted to copypaste and actually accepted FFG's version, they might have just as well copypasted from them, just like they have copypasted from other outsourced material before. But, since this hasn't been the case ...

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."
- Gav Thorpe

Also, what do you mean about 4th edition fluff? The Sisters' image did not change in that either. FFG simply promotes a slightly altered version of the setting, just like the vast majority of BL novel writers do. GW doesn't care, they will go on writing their own stuff as they always did. It's that easy.

BaronIveagh wrote:This laughable notion comes up over and over in 40k discussions. While the average pistol will, with the possible exception of the IMI Desert Eagle, not pen power armor, the AK 47 and HK MP5 will, most likely pen, as the power armor still have joints that are not as heavily armored (look at the minis if you doubt this), and 40k characters have the most alarming tendency to have their helmets off, which rather defeats the point of wearing power armor.

Joint exposure is largely located at the backs and is small enough that any hits on moving (i.e. fighting) targets would be pure coincidence, especially given that few soldiers would even think of this in the heat of a battle, instead concentrating what they were taught - which does not include anything about fighting people in powered armour.
Mind you, I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, but I have serious doubts about this having much effect on an engagement.

BaronIveagh wrote:Also: gyrojet weapons, such as bolters are actually an obsolete British design that was produced in 50 cal, slightly smaller then the 75 cal bolter. (there is a hilarious hole in GW and FFGs explanation of human bolters being lighter then SM bolters because mere men can't take the recoil. The joke is, gyrojets are nearly recoilless at 50 cal. 75 is not going to be much heavier.)

But bolters are not gyrojets. A bolt shell is kicked out of the barrel by a conventional charge before its own rocket motor kicks in - unlike gyrojet ammo, it's a two-stage projectile.

That said, the round leaves the barrel at low velocity (see description in the "Wargear" book) and boltguns have an integrated blast compensator (see 3rd edition rulebook). GW never even hinted at the idea of bolt weapons having obscene recoil or there being a difference in power between supposed human and Marine versions. This, too, is a deviation invented by FFG and a number of BL authors and one of the big inconsistencies amongst the various outsourced books. In fact, the only difficulty for humans operating bolt weaponry would be the weight of the gun and its ammunition (in addition to potential maintenance and supply issues). In GW's own Inquisitor RPG, humans and Marines also use the same bolters.

BaronIveagh wrote:I'll hold up the biggest argument against 40k power armor: It can be penetrated with a combat knife.

A monomolecular one maybe.

BaronIveagh wrote:Yes, and all those came after IG was originally conceived of (read GW wanted to sell new minis).

I don't see that much "Alien" in these guys (Flash Gordon springs to mind tho ), nor in the short blurb they had in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

BaronIveagh wrote:I said 'monastic order' until I was blue in the face earlier and you kept ignoring it. And, yes, bluntly, Grail Knights would qualify as a monastic knightly order, though they set up smaller chapels rather than full sized monasteries and a significant portion of them do not do so. Interestingly, they follow a similar practice to real world canons and canonesses.

Two different strands of this discussion - you mentioned monastic orders as we talked about the Sisters' rules, then you suddenly compared them to Bretonians in general, who obviously are not monastic at all. So, apologies, I had some difficulty following you in there. Still, if you are looking for sub-factions now, comparing the SoB to the Sisters of Sigmar would be much more accurate than the Grail Knights.

BaronIveagh wrote:Order of the Holy Sepulcher immediately springs to mind, but any order founded following the Canons of Saint Augustine, which is actually a milder Rule than the harsher Benedictine Rule. The order of Santiago was operated by a council of 13 who were both canons and commanders, recognized the feminine form of both in their offices and were the electing body of the Master of the order. The holder, in the case of a woman (which never did happen, but was surprisingly prepared for if it did), would have been both 'canoness' and 'Master'.

According to their own website, the Order of the Holy Sepulcher is headed by a Grand Master. If Wikipedia is to be believed, the same would be true for the Order of Santiago. The title of "Canoness" did exist there - but was a separate position from the Grand Master concerned with the service to pilgrims. In short: not how it works with the Sisters of Battle.

According to the Order of the Holy Sepulcher website, it was founded by Duke Godfrey of Bouillon at the end of the First Crusade. In 1496, Pope Alexander VI created the title of "Grand Master of the Order", and vested himself in that office. Since that time, the leader of this order could use the title Grand Master of the Order or his other, more well-known title, "Pope". It lasted thus until 1949, when leadership of this order was assigned to a Cardinal, which lasts until the current time.

At no time, in any source I can find, has the Order of the Holy Sepulcher used a Canoness, or any other woman of any rank, for that matter, as their head, as the leader of this Order has been the Pope since the 15th century, until the middle of the 20th century as noted above. The Church does not have female Cardinals.

...also, I think you'll find that The Battle of San Romano was done by Paolo Uccello... of which only 1/3rd is hanging in the Uffizi Gallery.

Lynata wrote:

A monomolecular one maybe.

Or a rusty shiv wielded by a grot for that matter.

A thin, poisoned needle slipped through a joint in one book IIRC

Nothing orks wield is monomolecular (though some is powered) and yet they have no problem lead-piping Marines to death. I'll grant you that they are stronger in most non-BL fluff than the average human, but they don't get any credit for it in the bolter-porn (being carved up and mown down way too easily for something as tough and strong (when angry) as a marine.

PA is tough, but it's not impenetrable to crude weapons.

BaronIveagh wrote:
IG: Alien

Cadian Shock Troops - American solders during WWII.
Catachan Jungle Fighters - American troops during Vietnam War ( Rambo )
Valhallan Ice Warriors - Soviet Red Army WWII
Mordian Iron Guard - 18'th century Prusians
Armageddon Steel Legion - Nazi Germany Panzergranadiers WWII
Death Korps of Krieg - German Empire WWI
Elysian Drop Troops - French Special Airborne Forcess
Vostroyan Firstborn - Russian Empire 19'th century
Preatorian Guard - British Empire 19'th century
Tallarn Desert Warriors - Bedouins ( Lawrence from Arabia )
Tanith 1'st and only - A mix of Walesmen and Scots

As you can see, Imperial Guard is themed on real world army's not another fictional space army's.

As for others:

Space Marines: knights in space.
- Blood Angels - vampires.
- Ultramarines - Romans.
- Dark Angels - Medieval Knight order.
- White Scars - Mongolians.
- Black Templars - Templar Knights during crusades.
- Space Wolves - Vikings.
- Grey Knights - knights fighting daemons in old tales.
Can't remember for other chapters.

Adeptus Mechanicus - Issac Asimov's Foundation
Inquisition: Spanish Inquisition in space.
Sisters of Battle: Jeanne D'Arc's in space.
Chaos Space Marines: corrupted and fallen knights i space.
Orks: copied from fantasy.
Eldar: Tolken Elves in space.
Dark Eldar: Evil counterpart of Tolken Elves in space.
Necrons: mix of Terminators and Egyptian culture is space.
Tyranids: mix of "Starship Troopers" bugs and "Aliens" Xenomorph.
Tau: Japanese ( anime mostly but there is a lot from their culture to ).

The Korps is a mix of WW1 French, Belgian and German.

Cadian are Canadians, or so I heard.

Bobthehero wrote:The Korps is a mix of WW1 French, Belgian and German.

Belgians and French Troops didn't have that uniforms at all, only German Troops did. Even their officers wore only German military uniforms from that time.
Also "Krieg" = "War" in German.

Cadian are Canadians, or so I heard.

Wrong again, Cadians are in fact a mix of US army in modern and WWII times.
The only reference with Cadians to Canadians is General Sir Arthur Currie who is inspiration for Creed.
Also Take note that Cadians are refereed as "best fighting troops in the Imperium, short to Space Marines themselves" and today US Army solders are refereed to as "best fighting troops in the world" by many others ( so it would seems no? ).

Lynata wrote:Actually, those parts surprisingly were not directly copypasted but newly written or reworded. Though if they had wanted to copypaste and actually accepted FFG's version, they might have just as well copypasted from them, just like they have copypasted from other outsourced material before. But, since this hasn't been the case ...

Mostly reworded, and not by much. And I can't say I've ever seen GW add material not produced by either them or BL in a Codex.

Lynata wrote:
Also, what do you mean about 4th edition fluff? The Sisters' image did not change in that either.

I have Codex WH open right here in front of me, and yes they did.

Lynata wrote:A monomolecular one maybe.

Cute, but I doubt the average guard bayonet or combat knife is a monomolecular edge.

Lynata wrote:I don't see that much "Alien" in these guys (Flash Gordon springs to mind tho ), nor in the short blurb they had in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

This came first:


Heck, they even named two of them 'Hikks' and 'Vaskez'

Lynata wrote:According to their own website, the Order of the Holy Sepulcher is headed by a Grand Master. If Wikipedia is to be believed, the same would be true for the Order of Santiago. The title of "Canoness" did exist there - but was a separate position from the Grand Master concerned with the service to pilgrims. In short: not how it works with the Sisters of Battle.

Ok, again, you guys seem to be having trouble with how this works. Let's try the definition of canon (and, hence, canoness) in this context: A canon is a priest or minister who is a member of certain bodies of the Christian clergy subject to an ecclesiastical rule.

"Originally, a canon was a cleric living with others in a clergyhouse or, later, in one of the houses within the precinct of or close to a cathedral and ordering his life according to the orders or rules of the church. This way of life grew common (and is first documented) in the eighth century. In the eleventh century, some churches required clergy thus living together to adopt the rule first proposed by Saint Augustine that they renounce private wealth. Those who embraced this change were known as Augustinians or Canons Regular, whilst those who did not were known as secular canons." - Wikipedia.

The Knights of Santiago adopted the Augustinian Rule, so, yes, they had canons and canonesses (technically any of them that lived on the order's property could be addressed by this title). You might want to consult Studia Monastica vol 29 (1987) for a more in depth exploration of the role that women played in those orders. (Including their one time commander, Joanna the Mad, thanks to her father's maneuvering the Pope into ending the Grand Masters of the Order and replacing them with himself [it will be noted, however, that Joanna never actually took an active role in the Order, as the male members of the family had her locked up as swiftly as it became apparent she was the heir. However, she was the overall commander of three of the four monastic orders of knights in Spain]).

Psienesis wrote:According to the Order of the Holy Sepulcher website, it was founded by Duke Godfrey of Bouillon at the end of the First Crusade. In 1496, Pope Alexander VI created the title of "Grand Master of the Order", and vested himself in that office. Since that time, the leader of this order could use the title Grand Master of the Order or his other, more well-known title, "Pope". It lasted thus until 1949, when leadership of this order was assigned to a Cardinal, which lasts until the current time.

At no time, in any source I can find, has the Order of the Holy Sepulcher used a Canoness, or any other woman of any rank, for that matter, as their head, as the leader of this Order has been the Pope since the 15th century, until the middle of the 20th century as noted above. The Church does not have female Cardinals.

I'd read Frassoni's Histoire de l'Ordre Militaire du Saint Sepulchre de Jérusalem (1910) then. Even though it's disavowed by the current order as it talks about Innocent's suppression of the order and perpetuates the myths of the orders founding. Following the collapse of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the head of the convent at Miechow declared herself 'General of the Order'. as did the Superior of the Convent of Perugia. In Spain, Germany, and France, they rejected these claims.

Psienesis wrote:
...also, I think you'll find that The Battle of San Romano was done by Paolo Uccello... of which only 1/3rd is hanging in the Uffizi Gallery.

Yeah, that's my bad. I mistyped.

Brother Coa wrote:

See above wiseass.

Brother Coa wrote:
Catachan Jungle Fighters - American troops during Vietnam War ( Rambo )

Entirely Rambo, nothing even remotely to do with US troops in Vietnam. They did after all, rename him Marbo.

Brother Coa wrote:
As you can see, Imperial Guard is themed on real world army's not another fictional space army's.

Not originally, which was what was being talked about. All that stuff came later.

Ascalam wrote:Nothing orks wield is monomolecular (though some is powered) and yet they have no problem lead-piping Marines to death. I'll grant you that they are stronger in most non-BL fluff than the average human, but they don't get any credit for it in the bolter-porn (being carved up and mown down way too easily for something as tough and strong (when angry) as a marine.

Aye, with the Orks it'd be their own strength, not the weapon. They'd probably only be marginally less dangerous without a close combat weapon - and with blunt weapons, I suppose the injuries are the result of trauma, not actually armour penetration. It's like in medieval times where people generally preferred maces to swords when engaging knights, because a sword slash was far less likely to cause any harm than simply banging that guy's armour in with a hammer.

Some posters may actually remember me argueing against the "OP-ness" of power armour, and I often cite the rather detailed article on power armour protection in the Codex: Angels of Death, where it states that against the majority of small arms in the 41st millennium, power armour only "reduces the chance for injury by between 50-85%" - yet when we're talking modern 21st century weapons, I am quite certain that power armour plating would hold up against pistols and rifles.

BaronIveagh wrote:And I can't say I've ever seen GW add material not produced by either them or BL in a Codex.

What's the difference between FFG and BL? They both publish outsourced products the studio generally does not care much about.

BaronIveagh wrote:I have Codex WH open right here in front of me, and yes they did.

Codex Witch Hunters is 3rd Edition. Also, I have the designer's notes right here, and they specifically state that it does not contradict previously published material.
What exactly are you referring to?

BaronIveagh wrote:Cute, but I doubt the average guard bayonet or combat knife is a monomolecular edge.

I don't know, and you don't either. But hypothetically, why do you think it has to be capable of penetrating power armour? You realize that there are many more possible explanations for Guardsmen dispatching Marines in close combat? Guardsmen do not even all have a combat knife.

BaronIveagh wrote:This came first:

Spoiler:

[img]http://www.solegends.com/citrt/WD96-Page-57-RT05-Imperial-Army-02.jpg

[/img]
Heck, they even named two of them 'Hikks' and 'Vaskez'

Still don't see anything pointing out the Alien movie as the Imperial Guard's sole inspiration. Again: check their background in the original Rogue Trader rulebook.
And they also named two of them 'Armstrong' and 'Jones'.

BaronIveagh wrote:Ok, again, you guys seem to be having trouble with how this works. Let's try the definition of canon (and, hence, canoness) in this context: A canon is a priest or minister who is a member of certain bodies of the Christian clergy subject to an ecclesiastical rule.
"Originally, a canon was a cleric living with others in a clergyhouse or, later, in one of the houses within the precinct of or close to a cathedral and ordering his life according to the orders or rules of the church. This way of life grew common (and is first documented) in the eighth century. In the eleventh century, some churches required clergy thus living together to adopt the rule first proposed by Saint Augustine that they renounce private wealth. Those who embraced this change were known as Augustinians or Canons Regular, whilst those who did not were known as secular canons." - Wikipedia.
The Knights of Santiago adopted the Augustinian Rule, so, yes, they had canons and canonesses (technically any of them that lived on the order's property could be addressed by this title). You might want to consult Studia Monastica vol 29 (1987) for a more in depth exploration of the role that women played in those orders. (Including their one time commander, Joanna the Mad, thanks to her father's maneuvering the Pope into ending the Grand Masters of the Order and replacing them with himself [it will be noted, however, that Joanna never actually took an active role in the Order, as the male members of the family had her locked up as swiftly as it became apparent she was the heir. However, she was the overall commander of three of the four monastic orders of knights in Spain]).

I think we do know "how this works". I'm not sure what you are trying to say, though. Are you trying to say that the position of Canoness in these orders was different than the position of the 40k SoB version and had nothing to do with military leadership? Thanks, I think we all knew this. But what does this have to do with your argument?

Brother Coa wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:The Korps is a mix of WW1 French, Belgian and German.

Belgians and French Troops didn't have that uniforms at all, only German Troops did. Even their officers wore only German military uniforms from that time.
Also "Krieg" = "War" in German.

Cadian are Canadians, or so I heard.

Wrong again, Cadians are in fact a mix of US army in modern and WWII times.
The only reference with Cadians to Canadians is General Sir Arthur Currie who is inspiration for Creed.
Also Take note that Cadians are refereed as "best fighting troops in the Imperium, short to Space Marines themselves" and today US Army solders are refereed to as "best fighting troops in the world" by many others ( so it would seems no? ).

Canadian soldiers have and had one hell of a reputation.

As for the Krieg troops, the name's irrelevant, and its a mix of all the 3 countries I mentionned,

Lynata wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Cute, but I doubt the average guard bayonet or combat knife is a monomolecular edge.

I don't know, and you don't either. But hypothetically, why do you think it has to be capable of penetrating power armour? You realize that there are many more possible explanations for Guardsmen dispatching Marines in close combat? Guardsmen do not even all have a combat knife.

On this topic, I read somewhere ( maybe IIUP, can't remember ) that Guard bayonet is made from Adamantium. The same metal that Dreadnoughts are made as well as Eternity Gate.
That is more then enough to break trough Astartes armor in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:
Canadian soldiers have and had one hell of a reputation.

Maybe in Canada
Just kidding, I am bet that Canadian solders are well trained and equipped but I doubt that their war record is like that of Russians or American ones.
From what I know Canada only take part in WW1 and WW2 and they took participation as part of British Empire together with Australian and Indian troops.

As for the Krieg troops, the name's irrelevant, and its a mix of all the 3 countries I mentionned,

That info was provided on 40k Wikipedia and LExicanum who are sometimes innacurate.
I actually have proff for my point:

French solder World War 1 uniform:

Belgian solder World War 1 uniform:

Note how their uniforms are quite similar if not the same, that is because Belgian army bought military uniforms from French before World War 1, we did the same thing in 1917.

German solder World War 1 uniform:

This one is even with gasmasks.
And this is Death Korps of Krieg Trooper:


And now tell me of those 3 solders who's uniform is most similar to Krieg one?

EDIT: I double checked both 40k wikipedias and I discovered this:
Lexicanum: "As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps are based on a real world army from history, and are similar in uniform and style to the German, French and Belgian soldiers of World War I."
40kWikipedia: "As with every Imperial Guard Regiment, the Death Korps are based on a real world army from human history, and are similar in uniform and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

2 Wikipedias and 2 different statements, what is more to talk about here?

Brother Coa wrote:On this topic, I read somewhere ( maybe IIUP, can't remember ) that Guard bayonet is made from Adamantium. The same metal that Dreadnoughts are made as well as Eternity Gate.
That is more then enough to break trough Astartes armor in my opinion.

Hmmh - if so, the Primer is still a BL book, and I do remember it contradicts Codex material on claiming that all Guardsmen receive the same kit when C:IG says the only thing universal to the Guard is the lasgun.
Also, I would find it difficult to believe that anyone wastes adamantium on Guard gear, though this is a hunch born solely from my assumption that it's a (comparatively) rare and expensive material...

Either way, the Guardsman would still need a lot of strength to push the blade through - adamantium would only make the blade harder to break, but to have any special "piercing" qualities it'd probably need special treatment such as a monomolecular edge.

My personal guess is that a Guardsmen who gets lucky enough to beat a Marine in close combat manages to shoot him in the eye or blows him up with a grenade. I think more ideas were thrown around in that other thread about Marines in CC.
Remember, the combat mechanism in the TT is extremely abstracted and even the "Strength" value is just an approximation of the character's general capability in a melee - influenced by his physical power, but also agility, training, equipment, and sheer dumb luck.

Lynata wrote:"They seek perfection of their martial skills in order to purify their minds and dedicate themselves utterly to the Emperor." [...] Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving; they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war."
- WD #211

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deviation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement."
- 2E Codex Imperialis

"To the Adepta Sororitas, penitence and self-mortification are a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful subjects."
- 3E Codex SoB

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."
- WD #292

"Their fanatical devotion and unwavering purity is a bulwark against corruption, heresy and alien attack. [...] The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess."
- WD # 380 / 5E Codex SoB

You know, a lot of these quotes are similarly echoed with the appropriate contextual differentiations when the books talk about Space Marines and their devotion to the Emperor. Strangely enough, there have proved to be plenty of exceptions to those rules too, as proven by the existence of modern renegade Space Marines. I could come up with ten times as many quotes about Space Marines that would seem to preclude even the possibility of Chaos Space Marines, lol. I think it's fair to suggest that the holy orders of bolter broads don't create clones stamped out of a mold. And certainly the more three dimensional, cynical Sisters seem a bit more realistic. After all, they're religious fanatics, and religious fanatics are a demographic that is rife with hypocrites and deviants, even, and especially, from their own beliefs.

Entirely Rambo, nothing even remotely to do with US troops in Vietnam. They did after all, rename him Marbo.

It's fair to point out that that's exactly what Rambo was, an American soldier who had fought in Vietnam. And while the red headbands scream Rambo, that's really where the similarities end for the most part. Catachans are, like most things in 40K, a blend of many popular culture items in order to appeal to the broadest range of fans possible. It's a dangerous line to try and create single-source inspirations for most stuff in 40K, because those occurrences are quite rare. Even the ones who seem easiest to peg are typically still quite composite.

That said, I don't get the silly assumption that the joints of Space Marine armor is incredibly vulnerable. While not as resilient as the hardened ceramite plates, it's probably a pretty durable, yet flexible material. It doesn't have to be made of some kind of soft rubber, lol. There are already modern compounds that are flexible and yet could deflect bullets, or diffuse the kinetic energy of their impacts. Certainly the joints are going to be weaker, but the question is how much weaker? BTW, the .50AE round of the IMI Desert Eagle is really just an oversized .45 round. It's not some super-killer that would have a drastically different penetration profile against Space Marine armor. Most small arms ammunition will likely be defeated by Power Armor simply by a combination of density, probably layered ablation, and the soft material most bullets are made of. If Space Marines are being defeated by weapons that shouldn't normally kill them, there's always the realistic possibility of armor degradation from previously defeated hits. Body armor doesn't exist in a vacuum, even the heavy power armor of Space Marines. Eventually, it's going to degrade if being struck by weapons that can damage the armor surfaces but not penetrate them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:After all, they're religious fanatics, and religious fanatics are a demographic that is rife with hypocrites and deviants, even, and especially, from their own beliefs.

Fanatism by itself comes with a certain behavior and demands strict adherence to some set of rules, regardless of how twisted they are. From what I've been told, the character in discussion definitively doesn't come across as a fanatic in any way. It's a Guardswoman in Sororitas robes, to say it plainly.

I was also under the impression that with the Space Marines it was their physical prowess, focus on fighting and lack of fear which was stressed, not fanatism or utter devotion to the Imperial Creed? Or maybe it was the statements about Astartes independence and pride which served to counter-balance the other in the impression I got from reading the studio material ... but in this case there's still the fact that such counter-balancing statements are utterly missing for the Sisters of Battle. They have their own flaws, but nothing that would - in my opinion - serve to justify the prolonged existence of high-ranking veterans whose actions are contrary to the faction's very spirit and dogmatic beliefs and who is put in a position where she would train the next generation of novices. Which isn't how the Schola works either, but that's just another deviation of that novel.

If we are going to discuss the characters and supposed lack of understanding of the author in relation to the Sororitas lets look at the actual text rather than what is talked about them:

Relevant passages about Sister Julien in Cain's Last Stand include:

Replying to an Administratum statement:
"That's because you put more faith in your data-slates than in matters of the Soul, " Sister Julien, the battle scarred Celestian veteran in charge of the Sororitas novitiates, put in. " You wouldn't even listen to the word of the Emperor unless it was in triplicate." The two of them were old sparring partners, bickering more or less amiably whenever they came into contact, although their respective world views seemed so much at variance, and so deeply entrenched, I never understood why they bothered.

Cain is modest about his influence :
"More fool them, then," she said decisively. Her irises were hazel, and regarded me over the lump of a repeatedly broken nose with faint amusement. "If ever a man had the Emperor at his back, it must have been you."

"Any foe can be beaten if the Emperor stands at your back, Julien said.

Juliens face paled. "Sanctuary 101, the Celestain's expression was now suffused with anger. "Then let them come, and meet their retribution."

on their effectiveness in battle:
The heretics opened up as soon as they saw them, of course, their las rounds expending themselves harmlessly against the crimson ceramite of Juliens armour and the freshly painted white of her charges. With ear splitting shrieks of 'For the Throne', the novitiates bounded into the attack, tearing apart troopers and the cover they hid behind with a hail of bolter fire, slashing at the demoralised survivors with their sarissas, and generally wrecking a most satisfying amount of carnage

aftermath Cain thanks Julien:
"My pleasure", Julien said with every sign of sincerity. Then she smiled, a trifle grimly. "It gave the novitiates an easy blooding, which was probably no bad thing."

I glanced round to see her and her novitiates double-timing it towards the thickest fighting, and she grinned at me, the light of holy fervour in her eyes. "Coming to join the fun, Cain?"

Also the following passage I think gells well with established background (in particular the last bit with how a 40k Schola works?
......the constant background noise of the Schola echoed up to surround us, a barely-perceived buzz of human activity. A party of youths was down on the firing range, blowing cardboard targets to confetti under the watchful eye of one of the drill abbots, while over to our left a squad of early adolescents were embarking on a run up one of the nearby mountains urged on by their proctors....I was jut able to make out the familiar shape of the black painted truck from the judiciary in Havendown, with its weekly delivery of condemned criminals for the interrogation, execution and live fire exercises. Sure that everything was peaceful and orderly........

Sandy Mitchel and Others I feel strives to place recognisable human characters in a strange dark world with a different set of values etc.

On the nature of the Sisterhood and the likelihood of them turning to Chaos etc: Cain is told that a Sisterhood base has fallen to Chaos raider in an hour:

"That's impossible." I said, Emperor knows, I had little time for the psalm singing harpies in the normal course of events, but I'd seen them hold their ground tenaciously against almost impossible odds. "They would have fought to the last woman"

When it is claimed that some had joined the raiders again he states:
"misdirection and propaganda" I said.

When confronted by the mind controlled sisters:

"If Varan's power could overcome the faith of even the Emperors most dedicated warriors (emphasise mine), it seemed I was in serious danger of underestimating him.

The fact that later that some Sisters are revealed to be mind controlled by the Chaos psyker is I feel to show the sheer power at his disposal.

Sister Julien was in full powered armour again, leading a group of her most senior novices in the battered practice sets towards the firing rang. The contrast between the scarred and pitted ceramite, on which votive icons were still visible and the fresh complexions of the teenage girls wearing them was marked, and rather poignant; I found myself thinking they should not have been worrying about acne and scrumball at that age, not how to field strip a bolter and the best way of disembowelling a heretic with their sarissas.

Again whlst acknowledging the soruce material - SM tries to put a human face on it...

I've never doubted that there are some passages in the book conforming to the studio material. It would be hard for anyone to write something that deviates entirely, with every single sentence.

My scorn is based on what has been discussed beforehand - that which has led so many fans of these books develop what I deem a flawed understanding of the Sisterhood - and to me, it is easy to see where it conflicts with the Codex material. I've seen this one novel cited too many times as "proof" about Sisters using their "spare time" for carnal pleasures, and to me this defeats a core tenet of the entire army which is stressed in GW books again and again: 100% devotion to the cause/faith.

Due to their flaws lying elsewhere and us having examples of such fanatism in real life, it's human enough for me. Like I said, if you like this version better, roll with it. We are free to choose our own interpretation, after all.

Lynata wrote:I've never doubted that there are some passages in the book conforming to the studio material. It would be hard for anyone to write something that deviates entirely, with every single sentence.

My scorn is based on what has been discussed beforehand - that which has led so many fans of these books develop what I deem a flawed understanding of the Sisterhood - and to me, it is easy to see where it conflicts with the Codex material. I've seen this one novel cited too many times as "proof" about Sisters using their "spare time" for carnal pleasures, and to me this defeats a core tenet of the entire army which is stressed in GW books again and again: 100% devotion to the cause/faith.

Fair enough except that its the majority of the passages not the minority are like this - the deviation from studio material is that the one character plays Tarot and drinks Amsac and appears to be having a discrete liaison - nothing is ver confirmed and the assumption is Cain's / Amberleys.... As I have mentioned before its highlighted as something extraordinary to Cain - a well travelled and knowledgeable man of more than a hundred years.

What the author seems to have done is use how members of the medieval (and more recent) Church act as a possible basis for trying to make believable characters of his Sororitas minor character. I think we are all aware that historical religious figures of significance, belief and otherwise have done these things and more?

Also he had already done the pure fanatic Sororitas in previous books...and perhaps wanted to try and have a more "human" character to empathise with - although retaining the strengths of her calling.

Now IMO people using this to say "The Sororitas are all sleeping around" is as much nonsense as saying that all Ultramarine Captains discard the Codex when they feel like it and use it for toilet paper after reading the novels about Uriel? I would also contend that people are going to say this whatever is or is not in a BL book.

Alos I think people often miss the small touches that he puts in regarding the darkness of 40K.................

There's also the deviation from how the Schola works and how its training influences people - though I would agree that this is another can of worms (albeit connected to the issue due to this Sister's role in the facility as well as the SoB recruiting from the Schola).

Either way, the mere idea of a Sister - especially one in such a role - committing to these activities just breaks the entire book for me, as it stand in such stark contrast to what I've been used to reading, and what has thus shaped my own perception of the Sisterhood. I will admit that the frequency of this book being cited in the popular "do Sisters have sex" discussions has likely contributed to my dislike, though.

In the end, it kicks open the door for a Sororitas version of the Space Wolves, even though the organization wouldn't allow for such deviancy. But, as has been expressed in this thread already, different people have different opinions about this as well. *shrugs*

Bottom line, it's cool when authors try to make their characters seem more human. It serves to better allow the reader to emphathize with the character. It's not cool when this is done to members of organizations which have always been portrayed as highly indoctrinated and it ends up making them look like the guy next door - which is something I think has been done in this case, and for a number of Space Marine novels. Personal preferences, though. When I want soldiers I can easily relate to, I just go read about the Imperial Guard. When I'm reading about Sisters, I expect a fair share of fanatism and utter devotion. In this, I think James Swallow did a much better job in making Miriya an interesting character with individual facets which still do not break with the cliché.
Same goes for Ben Counter's Sister Aescarion.

In the end it does come down to aesthetic. You and Melissa are quite a bit more hardline, by the book, purists with your fluff. Those of us who prefer more realistic interpretations and three dimensional characters will like the way books mold some Sisters into believable individuals. Religious organizations are often rife with corruption. The Ecclesiarchy takes this corruption to comic book villain heights. The idea of some senior Sisters having become jaded, lax "Do as I say, not as I do" types, especially once they've gotten to positions of command, seems pretty believable. You see it mirrored in the transgressions of all kinds of real world fanatics, from the upper echelons of church leadership, to the laxity in adherence to dogma by top level Al Qaeda members. The Sister in that book probably does the things she does because, well, she can. Who is her oversight? Leadership positions' primary function is to perpetuate themselves. Especially so in military organizations. The Sister does a good job training her charges, because the Sisters needs fanatical grunts who drink the Kool-Aid in order to continue as an organization. And when the organization continues, she can continue to live off of its power structure. Sure, she probably still believes in the cause, for the most part. But she now has a more realistic interpretation of it.

What is being intimated is that while the Soritas has its Mother Teresas, it also has its Tammy Faye Bakers. Both carry the message of the church and God and perpetuate the faith. But they do it for different reasons.

Meh, it has always been realistic enough for me - this is an era where humanity (at least this part of humanity) grows up surrounded by constant warfare and propaganda, so their minds and personalities aren't exactly those of today's "common Joe". Mitchell's idea might be fitting for a contemporary nun or the televangelist you mentioned (which in turn undoubtedly makes such a character more relatable/likable to many), but that's just not what the Sororitas are. At least going by GW's vision, which I have subscribed to.

Anyways, I object the idea that the Sisters' mindset is unrealistic when we have seen such people in real life already. It's not that far-fetched to assume that an organization built upon the tenets of harsh discipline, confession and mutual control has the means to assure that members not conforming to their standards are either made to conform - or permanently removed.

A lone Sister shouldn't even be in a Schola training recruits, but as I said that's another can of worms...

But, yes, it does come down to aesthetics and personal preferences. Including, of course, one's threshold concerning supposed realism, i.e. how much something has to correspond to contemporary standards.

Information on how exactly the Schola Progenium works is very very sketchy

The SOB Codex does say that it takes in orphans - but then in the same sentence also says that it will care for the children of a scribe posted to a distant world.

It does not what age you can enter - is there a minimum / maximum - presume not the first but he second - can an orphaned teenage son or daughter enter? It also states that "Male progena can become Commissars, Petty Officers or Preachers and females the Adepta Sororitas" - but do we not think that females can enter the above positions?

Again as is normal in the authors novels - footnotes regarding the Schola follow exactly the information in the codexs whilst trying to expand n something which GW simply have no interest at present in expanding on.

Given the sheer rarity of the Sisterhood I don't see why one could not end up posted to a Shola in the back of beyond - or perhaps she is event the last living one at the Schola given the speed of communication/resources available.

I really don't think that the Imperium is as perfect at implementing its systems across its whole size and like everything else in the 40k universe its going to vary.

There are so many areas of the Sisterhood that have not been explained and explored.....

The Schola Progenium is not solely run by the Sisterhood, and aren't exactly in remote locations. They might not exactly be on Hive Worlds, but neither are they built on Death or Feral Worlds. The odds of such a school being seriously "out of touch" with the Imperium at large, at least on the local Sector-level, are pretty slim. Someone, after all, has to come by to pick up the graduates to go off to wherever they are going to go.

As far as where the students of the Schola go to upon graduation, it really just takes a matter of connecting the dots. We know they have female Commissars so, yes, women can join that program. We know there are all sorts of female Administratum officers so, yes, again, women in the Schola School of Business Management. Female Stormtroopers? Questionable on the model line and such, but if there are female Kasrkin, then I think it safe to say that there are probably female members of the Storm Trooper Regiment. As far as the Ecclesiarchy goes, I don't recall there being a rule against female priests and confessors and other, non-Sisterhood roles within, so I don't see why some women might not go that route as well.

What that leaves us with then is a relatively small number of women who have both the ability and the faith to make the grade for inclusion in the Sisterhood. Cut from this short list those who, while having the ability lack the desire, and you're left with but a handful of girls who will take the Oath of Suffrage.

As far as minimum/maximum ages? Well, it is highly unlikely that a thirty-five year old woman, for example, is suddenly going to find herself in the Schola when her parents die. She's an adult now, has been for nearly 20 years by Imperial standards, and has her own life underway, so she's right out.

I'd imagine, given the.... Britishness... of the Imperium, we're ballparking the age of adulthood at 16, at which point the Schola probably sends you out into the world as whatever skill-set you've been trained/graduated into, to be further trained in doing that job, whether it's Commissariat, Inquisition, Administratum or Sisterhood or whatever.

This means that we have a minimum/maximum age of becoming an Initiate in the Sisterhood at around 16, give or take a year or so... which makes some sense, because these girls are still fairly new to the world, regardless of how their parents died, and so haven't really (necessarily) have had the life experiences to become cynics or questioning of their faith in the God-Emperor, and are, in fact, more easily molded into religious fire-brands.

The Sisterhood doesn't have any business running the Schola - all they do is occasionally sending someone over to inspect potential recruits to enter novitiate. The guys who teach these children are called Drill-Abbots and Missionaries, as one can read in their description here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350170a_m1320030_Inq_Rulebook_part_2.pdf
"These children are known as Progena, and most of them will end up within the Ministorum or the Adeptus Terra. Some may even find office in a planetary government, while most girls are destined for one of the Orders of the Sisterhood. Many military leaders and special forces are brought up by the Schola Progenium, including Navy officers and the elite Storm Troopers and iron willed Commissars of the Imperial Guard. It is the task of the Drill Abbot to give specialised combat training to these children."

and here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080411104905/uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/2/
"Regardless of her unknown roots, it is evident that Stern was singled out from an early age as a candidate for the Adepta Sororitas. The Arch Drill-abbot of the Schola Progenium submitted her for consideration, and one Sister Patricia of the Order of the Holy Seal accepted her, shipping her out on the next available vessel bound for Terra."

Or here, from the Codex Imperialis:
"The most famous of all missions are the Schola Progenium. These are orphanages run by the Ministorum specifically to look after and train the children of Imperial officials who have given their lives in service. These orphans receive a strict orthodox cult education, and most of them grow up to become important Imperial officials."

There was also a blurb about Commissar Cadet squads in WD115:
"Personnel selected to become Cadet Commissars are drawn from schools run by Missionaries of the Ministorum. There are many such schools throughout the Imperium, known as Schola Progenium. Here, orphans of Imperial Officials who gave their lives in the service of the Emperor are educated by the Missionaries. They soon learn to regard the Emperor as their spiritual father and build a strong personal devotion to the Imperial cause."

Its text was also reprinted in the Wh40k Compilation book, and this part of it makes it clear that the Progena do not become Cadet Commissars until after they have finished Schola training:
"The Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard Regiment selects the most promising recruits from those recommended to him by the schools of the Ministorum. After basic Imperial Guard training, these become Cadet Commissars and proceed to special training for their demanding responsibilities as Commissars."

Exactly like the Sisters do not become Novices until after they have been sent to one of the convents. In short: This, too, simply conflicts with the version that Mitchell came up with, because he either didn't do his research, or because he couldn't be arsed and preferred his own ideas. After all, this part of the book wouldn't have worked if he'd have stuck to GW's writings.

In his defence, this kind of fluff is all over the place and hard to locate - I still discover new bits and pieces about the Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy even today (which is what makes my continued quest somewhat exciting - it's like digging for treasure!). However, as an author contracted by the Black Library, he would have had the ability to have questions regarding this subject passed along right up to GW's own writers. If he actually attempted to do so, then an editor at BL messed up. Either way, we end up with yet another outsourced book whose contents do not match studio material. Then again, according to Black Library's own boss and a lot of its authors, this isn't what these novels are meant for, anyways. The majority of the fandom yet has to realize this.

Again, though, if anyone prefers Mitchell's writings to GW's, that's their business - and it's not wrong. It simply is just another interpretation. Though it should be kept in mind that even "small" changes such as these can break compatibility elsewhere, which is why I advise caution when combining elements from multiple sources of fluff.

As for the age question, yeah, this is one area where I don't know of any studio-originated information. Psienesis has a point regarding the "connecting the dots", though. Any blank spaces still left open can easily be filled by common sense or - le gasp - own ideas.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In the end it does come down to aesthetic. You and Melissa are quite a bit more hardline, by the book, purists with your fluff. Those of us who prefer more realistic interpretations and three dimensional characters

Your preferences about the sisters ARE the unrealistic ones.

Weird fetishes... thinking that religiously devout people can't be three dimensional... thinking that they can't be realistic (where do YOU live?)...

Just because they're three dimensional, realistic characters doesn't meant they're fething around with everyone like you want them to. Quite a damned few female-only organizations IN THE REAL WORLD manage to live vows of chastity and self-denial, both in terms of sex and drugs and gambling and other baser desires. Just because you like to live in denial doesn't make it untrue or unreal. It just means you're living in denial.

Melissia wrote:
Weird fetishes... thinking that religiously devout people can't be three dimensional... thinking that they can't be realistic (where do YOU live?)...

Everyone else has managed to keep it civil, and I've enjoyed following the argument (Mr Morden has expressed my views almost precisely). There's no reason for you to act like this, so keep a civil mouth about it or excuse yourself from the discussion.

Just because they're three dimensional, realistic characters doesn't meant they're fething around with everyone like you want them to.

Which isn't what anyone is saying.

Quite a damned few female-only organizations IN THE REAL WORLD manage to live vows of chastity and self-denial, both in terms of sex and drugs and gambling and other baser desires.

And it would be a safe bet that every single one of the organizations (or at least the relatively large ones) will have exceptions. It's not like every nun who took a vow of chastity kept it their entire life, or were even particularily spiritual especially in cases where they didn't have a choice as to whether they joined or not. There are exceptions to every rule.

Just because you like to live in denial doesn't make it untrue or unreal. It just means you're living in denial.

You're no more authoritative in your own personal opinion than anyone else. If there is room for interpretation (and there undoubtedly is) don't act high and mighty when someone reaches a different conclusion to you.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Which isn't what anyone is saying.

It's pretty much is.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Which isn't what anyone is saying.

It's pretty much is.

Admitting there is a possibility that not every single sister in existence will follow the tenents of the Sororitas without fail =/= Adepta Sororitas Vostroyan Gangbang VIII.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Admitting there is a possibility that not every single sister in existence will follow the tenents of the Sororitas without fail

The codex discusses this-- ones that don't manage to uphold the very high standards end up as repentia.

And yes, the standards are high. The Sisterhood recruits the best, but even out of the best, not everyone can make it. Those that have a stumble are made to redeem themselves in a less permanent way than Repentia, such as self-mortification with a rope flail (a scoriada), and other such means. And those that don't manage to overcome such flaws enter the Repentia to redeem themselves in death.

The Sisterhood is demanding. Moreso, arguably, than any other organization in the Imperium-- in many ways rivaling even the Assassinorum training. That's WHY the Sisters are the best humanity has to offer. You want to water this down, but I don't see any reason why you should.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Admitting there is a possibility that not every single sister in existence will follow the tenents of the Sororitas without fail

The codex discusses this-- ones that don't manage to uphold the very high standards end up as repentia.

If they are discovered, or if they confess to the failings themselves.

And yes, the standards are high. The Sisterhood recruits the best, but even out of the best, not everyone can make it. Those that have a stumble are made to redeem themselves in a less permanent way than Repentia, such as self-mortification with a rope flail (a scoriada), and other such means. And those that don't manage to overcome such flaws enter the Repentia to redeem themselves in death.

The Sisterhood is demanding. Moreso, arguably, than any other organization in the Imperium-- in many ways rivaling even the Assassinorum training. That's WHY the Sisters are the best humanity has to offer. You want to water this down, but I don't see any reason why you should.

And you don't believe for one instance that there could ever be an exception to this? That strikes me as unrealistic. Not every sister is going to be a frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic who guilts themselves over the slightest failure (real or imagined). Just like not every commissar is going to be a zealous maniac that is a stickler for the rules and vastly underestimates the likelihood of friendly fire.

As for the Convents rivaling the Assassinorum in training, that is a laughable claim. You could argue that they rival the Astartes standard (or even surpass in cases of spirituality), but the Officio Assassinorum training regimes are certainly a different ball game.

Yes, there was one instance.

One.

Hazardous Harry wrote:As for the Convents rivaling the Assassinorum in training, that is a laughable claim. You could argue that they rival the Astartes standard (or even surpass in cases of spirituality), but the Officio Assassinorum training regimes are certainly a different ball game.

As far as faith and loyalty goes, it certainly is equal to the assassinorum operative training.

And Space Marines have it fairly easy with their training considering their superhuman bodies.

Melissia wrote:As far as faith and loyalty goes, it certainly is equal to the assassinorum operative training.

It's hard to compare the two since the assasinorum focus less on 'Have faith in the Emperor' and more on 'You are a tool, nothing more. You exist in the service of His will.'


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Melissia wrote:Yes, there was one instance.

One.

You can't say that with any certainty at all. Cain is probably not the only commissar to be less-than-suitably-zealous as far as commissars go. Though he certainly is the luckiest.