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I would like to add a brief note that the Sisters of Battle are not a unified organization, different Orders differ in organization/recruitment/vows of chastity in much the same manner that different Space Marine Chapters might. Ciaphas Cain merely ran across a Sororitas Order that doesn't mandate vows of chastity.

And on the subject of whether Space Marines or Sisters of Battle have 'better' tactics/knowledge of war, remember that these people aren't necessarily all that scientific about war. It's entirely possible that you'd run across an Ultramarines Captain who takes every word in the Codex Astartes literally and would never consider deviating from it's dictates regardless of the situation or common sense, you might run across a 400-year-old Canoness (juvenat drugs) with a precise and detailed knowledge of how to handle any combat situation and the flexibility to adapt when things go wrong. It's also possible that these might be reversed, you might find a Raven Guard Captain who keeps a copy of the Codex Astartes to wipe his bum with and runs entirely on clever situational adaptive tactics, and a mere fifty-year-old Canoness whose knowledge of war boils down to a simple flowchart: Friendly? Yes -> Say hello and keep going. No -> BURN.

I do believe that, regardless of Order, a Sister's vows are identical. Before they join an Order, they are Initiates at one of the two main enclaves, where training and instruction is regimented and universal.

I don't think you will find non-chaste Sororitas. They're actually very much identical, across the galaxy, unlike the Space Marines. They don't take away from their vows to replace them with different vows, or no vow at all, they simply add to the vows they all take, in reference to specific events, saints, founders, goals, whatever, depending on which Order they belong to.

Vows can also be taken after joining an order. Like becoming a sister repentia I believe is also a vow.

AnomanderRake wrote:I would like to add a brief note that the Sisters of Battle are not a unified organization, different Orders differ in organization/recruitment/vows of chastity in much the same manner that different Space Marine Chapters might. Ciaphas Cain merely ran across a Sororitas Order that doesn't mandate vows of chastity.

The Sisters are a unified organisation. All Sisters are the students of one of only two institutions (Convent Prioris and Convent Sanctorum), which are explicitly stated to be similar in organisation.

It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Hopefully 6th edition will fix things.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many girls go through the Schola, but not all train to become Sisters, and not all of those become Sisters.

This is a good thing.

You want it to be easy for a girl who isn't cut out to be a Battle Sister to go on to different things. It means you can pick the cream of the crop to train as Sisters, and it means a girl who lacks the True Faith or other attributes necessary to become a good Sister will not be coerced into hiding it and going through the motions until it gets someone killed.

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many girls go through the Schola, but not all train to become Sisters, and not all of those become Sisters.

This is a good thing.

You want it to be easy for a girl who isn't cut out to be a Battle Sister to go on to different things. It means you can pick the cream of the crop to train as Sisters, and it means a girl who lacks the True Faith or other attributes necessary to become a good Sister will not be coerced into hiding it and going through the motions until it gets someone killed.

True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Being fanatical doesn't mean stupid. Many SOBs are accomplished tacticians, despite their fanaticism and can rival the finest of the Space Marines as far as tactics and strategy goes.

Source?

And, while i agree that fanaticism does not always equal stupidity, you would be amazed the number of times it does throughout history. (Hattin anyone?)

Source for that? Seems the Crusaders got outmanoeuvred there, and the Muslims seems as fanatics as the Crusaders.

And there's more and more people saying that the Crusades were not about religion as much as some people would beleive.

Necrosis wrote:True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

No, it's not. No Space Marine is supposed to have authority over more than 1,000 other Space Marines. It might not work out that way in reality, between the Black Templars and various Chapters that are still loyal to their progenitor Chapters, but that's the theory. By comparison if there are 30,000 Adepta Sororitas they all answer to the Abbess.

Necrosis wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Hopefully 6th edition will fix things.

Thinking the 6th edition will magically fix everything will only end in tears. Just ask the DRW-fans after this summer when Zach Parise and Ryan Suter both fail to show up.


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AlexHolker wrote:

Necrosis wrote:True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

No, it's not. No Space Marine is supposed to have authority over more than 1,000 other Space Marines. It might not work out that way in reality, between the Black Templars and various Chapters that are still loyal to their progenitor Chapters, but that's the theory. By comparison if there are 30,000 Adepta Sororitas they all answer to the Abbess.

There are like only a few orders out there (and they are not any bigger than a Codex Astartes-following Space Marine chapter), while there are about one thousand Space Marine chapters. So in sum the Space Marines outnumber the Sisters of Battle by quite the numbers.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

The number of Battle Sisters isn't the same as the total number of Sisters. It is certain that GW has never adequately explained the logistics of the Orders. Even the FFG Dark Heresy supplements didn't give it any real thought. But, then again, a lot of things seem to exist in a vacuum in 40K. I mean, if a Space Marine Chapter can only have exactly 1000 total brothers, they'd be consistently under-strength as an infantry force because it takes over 400 Marines to crew the various vehicles that the Ultramarines are shown to possess, and that's before the introduction of the new flyers we're supposed to see. But that's a whole different, long-winded discussion.

The bottom line is, the Schola Progenium may cycle a large number of girls into the program, but not all are going to find their way into the Battle Sisters. Probably not even close to most. The rest will become Hospitallers, Dialogus, Sabines, Pronatus, Famulous, etc. And, there are likely tons of menials for those who don't show any really notable aptitudes that would land them a more specialized job. The Battle Sisters are going to be the taller, bigger, stronger women who enter the orders and look like this. But let's be realistic, the average woman (in world terms) is about 5'2" and there's no reason to think the average is going to spike dramatically in the 40K universe. She's not going to make an ideal Battle Sister, even with power armor, so she'll be utilized elsewhere by the Ecclesiarchy. The Battle Sister is probably more rare to an Imperial citizen than a Space Marine, but they're probably reasonable familiar with the Sororitas in their more mundane functions. In the end, the Space Marines are the stars of the show in 40K. That's why we know all about the chapter serfs and servitors and other such that run the show behind the scenes in a Space Marine chapter. But let's be realistic. Games Workshop hasn't even bothered to give us an in-depth, coherent picture of how a Space Marine chapter operates, so it's not likely anybody over there is giving much thought to how the Sisters would actually be able to legitimately function. Mostly because they don't sell enough models, but also because those kinds of details are sorta mundane in the sci-fi action/adventure genre. If 40K was more about sci-fi military fiction, then we might see the nitty gritty a little more often.

*dusts off the old books*

I've never heard of „many“ girls entering the Sororitas program – at least not „many“ as in „millions“. What is true is that a lot of girls end up in the Schola Progenium, but this facility trains more than just Sisters of Battle. In fact, the vast majority of progena ends up as scribes for the Administratum, whilst the ones of above-average recruitment stock are getting trained for duty as Arbites enforcers, Munitorum staff soldiers or Navy NCOs. Only the best of the best end up in the Sororitas classes, and of those there are still the non-militant Orders such as the Famulous, the Hospitallers, the Sabine, the Pronatus and the Dialogous who require regular reinforcements. Occasionally you'll have the Inquisition or the Assassinorum recruit from these top-performers, but usually, the elite ends up in the Sisters Militant. Perhaps fittingly, their numbers seem somewhat on par with those of the Imperial Guard's Storm Trooper regiment.

In terms of their ability for tactical thinking, even the current Codex (as all did before) notes that each Canoness is “a veteran warrior of many hundreds of battles who has risen to her position through a combination of strong leadership, shrewd tactical genius and sheer overarching faith in the Emperor“. Given the heavily squad-centric and independent organizational doctrine of the Battle Sisters, I highly doubt that the average Sororitas Militant will be trained in anything above small-units tactics, but it seems obvious that the Canonesses are different. I will elaborate further in the other thread.

As for their uniformity, the Adepta Sororitas are one of the most unified organizations in the entire Imperium. Whilst minor variances in spirit are said to exist between the various Orders as depending on the personality of their Patron Saint, every single Order is able to trace back its roots to the origin of their organization as a whole, and all Sisters endure the bulk of their training in either the Convent Sanctorum or Primaris. As such, the so-called Liber Sororitas, a fairly big and informative article printed in WD #293, notes that “the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. […] The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source – the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor – and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.“

It should be kept in mind that, according to the authors themselves, there is no such thing as a “canon“ in 40k and (to quote Andy Hoare) “no binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or true representation of the setting“, so one must always consider the possibility that not all sources may be compatible with each other. And yes, I'm thinking of the Cain novels when I write this, as it is my understanding that they depict a version of Sororitas utterly polar to what we can see in GW studio books.

Disclaimer: The above opinion reflects the writer's personal interpretation of a uniform summary of official Games Workshop sources, including rulebooks, codices and issues of White Dwarf or the Citadel Magazine. Outsourced and licensed products or fan-fiction containing elements incompatible to these sources have been dismissed and ignored.

Many girls enters one of the Orders of the Sororitas. Then again, you state it's the cream of the crop, so logic tells me that from millions of candidates they likely end up with only a hardened core who comes out of the convents as fully fledged Sororitas. Entering a novice-stage is an entirely different proposition than getting to be a fully fledged SOB. Having the faith that lets a body endure the things they must endure likely makes them even more special than any Space Marine who ain't a Grey Knight or their successor-chapter.

Well, how much is "many"? Personally, it is my belief that anyone not fit for duty as a Sororitas would be weeded out in the Schola already, so that failed novices would be a very rare thing indeed.

I forgot to mention that the Sisters of Battle have a fairly high attrition rate, so perhaps they would simply burn through human material rather quickly - much like the Storm Trooper Regiment. An organization of several ten, perhaps hundred thousand Battle Sisters, of whom many are engaged in near-constant warfare would probably need "many" recruits to stay alive.

From the 2E Codex, referring to the six Major Orders Militant:

"The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

Of course, this only refers to the Big Six, and it is my understanding that the locally limited Minor Orders are not as active (explaining why you don't see them as much in official fluff). That said, the highly mobile Major Orders are engaged in battles throughout Imperial Space or even beyond, so my guess would be that they get the bulk of recruits, even though their actual members are presumably fewer than the total headcount of the Minor Orders. They simply "need more material", as they carry the most weight.

Oh golly, no, the regime must be so strict that they just simply must dismiss many canidates for often rather flimsy reasons, and that's ferreted out at the Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII.

Ophelia's convent apparently is the second largest building in the verse only dwarfed by the Imperial Palace on Holy Terra. So it's quite clear that when inducted at the Schola Progenium, to being able to run berzerk with bolter, is quite the step.

So from novice I would say most falls through. It would depend on their age when they are sent there from the Schola Progeniums, but still I maintain that they likely has just began their training at the convents (sorry Schola Progeniums were a typo) when they are sent to the convents from those places.

Well, differing interpretations, in that case.

The regime is strict, but from what I've read about their laws, there's no leaving the Order once you're in. Common punishments seem to be fasting, prayer and the whip. Anything that warrants more will see you qualify for the Repentia:

[...] and if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle.
-- Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

I'm less certain about that, but then again failed Space Marines who survive gets to be serfs and such and do all the menial jobs.

Seriously the life of a Space Marines or a Sister of Battle is likely so harsh that the Schola Progenium (a school and military-training center from the hell of hells) would look like a picnic.

Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

Hahaha. Brilliant point, and to a point as well.

Bobthehero wrote:

Source for that? Seems the Crusaders got outmanoeuvred there, and the Muslims seems as fanatics as the Crusaders.

The crusaders were outmaneuvered more by their own internal bickering. The Templars demanded an immediate attack on Saladin, while the actual ruler of Tiberius was accused of cowardice for saying that they should hold off retaking the city and force Saladin into attacking a powerful dug in position. (A strategy which, I might point out, Napoleon used to great effect at Austerlitz).


(Not sure if this is from this thread or just me bleeding over from another thread on the subject of battlesisters, but

With the tanks I was referring to the tabletop rules. Not Dark Heresy. This came up over and over again during hashing out if SM strike cruisers could have lances or not during the testing part of FAQ2010, due to the peculiarity that the TT game lance hits are only 20m wide. So claiming any sort of crunch as evidence in a 'fluff' argument is pointless, as someone else can grab another version of the same weapon from a different game in the same setting and argue something else.

BTW: The current fanbased calculations for a leman russ tank fitted with a battle canon.
Battle Cannon– Ordinance – 1km – S/-/-/ - 4d10 + 5 X – 5 – 1 – 2 Full – Reliable, Blast (10) – 1500kg – GM - Rare

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/armoury/weapons-and-armour/1218-tanks-of-the-imperium

First: There is a serious problem with the idea of the Sororitas being united. That being that there currently is no Abbess, and has not been since the previous one was lost to the warp.

Second: GW falls into the 'Math Hole' again. If there are currently fewer then 30,000 sisters, and orders majoris currently have 3,000 to 4,000 sisters, this means that there are insufficient battle sisters to outfit all the named orders at their canon levels, let alone the orders minors for whom actual numbers are unavailable (even at the 'as few as 100' levels suggested).

(We'll just hand-waive how 30,000 anything isn't enough to ride herd on an entire planet even at a 'mere'5 billion humans, let alone 500 billion humans...)


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AlexHolker wrote:
The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

I'd be impressed to see a thuggish six year old. (The date that Uriel Ventris supposedly started training).

Point of fact though, you're referring back to 1st edition, which has been retconned so hard it bounced...


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Lynata wrote:Well, differing interpretations, in that case.

The regime is strict, but from what I've read about their laws, there's no leaving the Order once you're in.

Unless you leave. BoM has a serious incongruity between 'Sisters never leave the order' when earlier 'Sisters have left the order to become inquisitors, cardinals, and Rogue Traders'.

That last one also flushes the whole 'no sex' vow right down the toilet, as a Rogue Trader would need to reproduce to continue the line. (Which they did, apparently, since the line is not on the list of Rogue Trader warrants that have died out, despite being the only member of the house.)

1KM only for a cannon far better than what a M1 can produce, I could do better than those fans.

As for the whole no-sex-vow. If they are flushed out, then they renounce their vows.

BaronIveagh wrote:[
With the tanks I was referring to the tabletop rules. Not Dark Heresy. This came up over and over again during hashing out if SM strike cruisers could have lances or not during the testing part of FAQ2010, due to the peculiarity that the TT game lance hits are only 20m wide. So claiming any sort of crunch as evidence in a 'fluff' argument is pointless, as someone else can grab another version of the same weapon from a different game in the same setting and argue something else.

BTW: The current fanbased calculations for a leman russ tank fitted with a battle canon.
Battle Cannon– Ordinance – 1km – S/-/-/ - 4d10 + 5 X – 5 – 1 – 2 Full – Reliable, Blast (10) – 1500kg – GM - Rare

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/armoury/weapons-and-armour/1218-tanks-of-the-imperium

Well why are you referring to table top rules when I'm referring to another set of rules. Dark Heresy is the most accurate set of rules we have for 40k (as it uses a d100 system instead of a D6). You can see the differences between a space marine bolter, a sister of battle bolter and imperial guard bolter. You can also see major differences in space marine power armour and a sister of battle power armour. And then you use fan material to back up your argument which is ridiculous. It is not made by the company, thus it is not valid example. Now I'm not saying Dark Heresy is the holy grail of fluff/cannon but if it does say something, its something to consider. As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Trained by the schola progenium.

So are Arbites.

And therefor the Arbites have more than a basic understanding of Imperial tactics and warfare.

Seriously, the Arbites are quite competent, despite what some people want to believe.

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Indeed, they have a grasp, and I would claim the majority of their education is done on Terra and that other planet, in their convents. That's were their education to be angry nuns truly begins.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Trained by the schola progenium.

So are Arbites.

And therefor the Arbites have more than a basic understanding of Imperial tactics and warfare.

How do we know what the curriculum is that is taught to Schola Progenium attendees? It's probably much more likely that as they grow and age, the students are placed into more specialized programs tailored to the skills they will need. The Schola Progenium isn't one giant classroom, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Really? I have heard about plenty of kids that have done murders and quite badass things at that tender age.

Necrosis wrote:Well why are you referring to table top rules when I'm referring to another set of rules. Dark Heresy is the most accurate set of rules we have for 40k (as it uses a d100 system instead of a D6). You can see the differences between a space marine bolter, a sister of battle bolter and imperial guard bolter. You can also see major differences in space marine power armour and a sister of battle power armour. And then you use fan material to back up your argument which is ridiculous. It is not made by the company, thus it is not valid example. Now I'm not saying Dark Heresy is the holy grail of fluff/cannon but if it does say something, its something to consider. As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

Most accurate? By what standard?

They're just the most specific. But there's a distinct difference between precision and accuracy, lol.


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Beaviz81 wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Really? I have heard about plenty of kids that have done murders and quite badass things at that tender age.

Damn. Norway's less civilized than I thought then. /shrug.

I have heard about it, I don't know about it as I dislike reading about wonder-kids even when it comes to violence.