Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lynata wrote:The Sisterhood doesn't have any business running the Schola - all they do is occasionally sending someone over to inspect potential recruits to enter novitiate. The guys who teach these children are called Drill-Abbots and Missionaries, as one can read in their description here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350170a_m1320030_Inq_Rulebook_part_2.pdf
"These children are known as Progena, and most of them will end up within the Ministorum or the Adeptus Terra. Some may even find office in a planetary government, while most girls are destined for one of the Orders of the Sisterhood. Many military leaders and special forces are brought up by the Schola Progenium, including Navy officers and the elite Storm Troopers and iron willed Commissars of the Imperial Guard. It is the task of the Drill Abbot to give specialised combat training to these children."

Which is exactly how it is described in the novel:

......the constant background noise of the Schola echoed up to surround us, a barely-perceived buzz of human activity. A party of youths was down on the firing range, blowing cardboard targets to confetti under the watchful eye of one of the drill abbots, while over to our left a squad of early adolescents were embarking on a run up one of the nearby mountains urged on by their proctors....I was jut able to make out the familiar shape of the black painted truck from the judiciary in Havendown, with its weekly delivery of condemned criminals for the interrogation, execution and live fire exercises. Sure that everything was peaceful and orderly........

What the novel says about Juliens presence is this: (footnot by Inquisitor Vail)

Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course, trained in their own convents, it's by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join thier ranks. Sister Julien would see to their initial induction, assessing which of their aspirants were best suited to the the Ordos Militant, Hospitaller, Famulous or what have you, and whih were better redirected along other paths altogether.

As my own footnote going back to the discussions of influence and familiy conections - the original Codex entry for the schola makes it clear that you don't have to be orphan - just not being looked after by your parent/s - hence those "connections" could remain in play.......and indeed powerful families could be placing children in the Schola to make sure that they are getting the "right" education.

"From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world"

Also the Codex does not say the different sexes are in actual different locations - just segreggeted except for religious ceremonies - again very much like the English Boarding School system on which the whole thing is IMO hugely based - including the military training etc.

On this point in the Novel in quesiton the only direct contact mentioned between the student of both sexesis:

A single female Commissar cadet in Cains class
and of course during actual combat when the schola is attacked

Again this all seems logical...........

Hazardous Harry wrote:You can't say that with any certainty at all.

Yes I can, as it was specifically stated to be such.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Admitting there is a possibility that not every single sister in existence will follow the tenents of the Sororitas without fail =/= Adepta Sororitas Vostroyan Gangbang VIII.

The bigger issue isn't even so much the existence of a Sister being tempted - but rather how casual it is done. As far as I know, the novel doesn't tell us of a Sister who is torn between the need to uphold a public image and her secret feeling - but rather a Sister who, after "office hours", goes over to her IG buddies to have a pint and some fun cleaning them out on a card game, and maybe get laid. If Mitchell wrote this because he wants to tell us "hey, Sisters are just average people, too" - then I just respond: "RTFM!"

Hazardous Harry wrote:It's hard to compare the two since the assasinorum focus less on 'Have faith in the Emperor' and more on 'You are a tool, nothing more. You exist in the service of His will.'

I have to say, I'm fairly sure the Sisterhood is following the latter tenet as well.

Mr Morden wrote:Which is exactly how it is described in the novel

From what I've read, the novel has a Sister permanently attached to this Schola. And a Commissar is fulfilling the functions of a Drill-Abbot.

Mr Morden wrote:the original Codex entry for the schola makes it clear that you don't have to be orphan - just not being looked after by your parent/s

Which Codex are you referring to, exactly? I've never read anything else other than "orphans". Which is, in the case of the Sororitas, even backed up by the Battle Sisters' own description when it mentions them being 100% orphans.

Mr Morden wrote:On this point in the Novel in quesiton the only direct contact mentioned between the student of both sexesis:
A single female Commissar cadet in Cains class
and of course during actual combat when the schola is attacked

Didn't you forget to mention this sports game, now?

Also, according to GW's writings there is no such thing as a "Commissar class" in a Schola. The progena do not become Cadet Commissars until after they left.

Can't we just agree to disagree? It should be obvious where the novel conflicts with studio writing. I'm not even saying it's wrong, I'm just pointing out it's not compatible.

Hey I am not trying to get at anyone - just discussiing the issues - its all quite civilsed yes ? but I'll drop it after this if you like?

In aswer to your questions?

Cain has officially retired from active service and now is serving as as a instructor for Commissar cadets - which does tie in with the enttry in the present Imperial Guard Codex: P32)

"Unlike individual regiments that are levied from their home worlds when they are needed , Commissars are raised in the Schola Progenium".

I quoted previously the passage which explains Sister Juliens pressence there.

The quote (copied below) comes from the Sisters of Battle Codex (1997) p33

"From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world"

I would def agre that the latest IG codex says orphans are raised to be Stormtroopers (p46) - in the entry about the Scholas in general (p11) the text has been updated to say the orphan sons and daughters of Imperial Officials and there is no mention about absent parents - so I guess it depends if you accept the older entry as still valid?

The sports game - I will check but IIRC the prospective Sororitas recruits are playing a game on their own and are visible to the Commissar cadets through a window - they are not playing together......

The presence of a female Commissar cadet does seem to break the rules or segregation (which is not mentioned in the most recent IG codex entry either way) - but I guess if there is a single girl that fulfills the credentials and there is no set up for a female officer to teach her - they would either deny her entry or (perhaps more likely in the Imperium) just ignore the fact that she is female and treat her as just another recruit.

You have totally made me want to convert a squad of sisters as slaanesh devoted CSM.

Hmm that was not the intention - although it could look good Slaanesh corrupted marines are liekly to be fairly mutable in form

As previously discussed on other threads (and even Cain says this) - the Sisterhood are perhaps the least likely force in the whole Imperium to fall to Chaos.

Its more likely that to mock the Sisterhood, heretics might strip the fallen of their armour and deface it - wearing it in battle.

Mr Morden wrote:Cain has officially retired from active service and now is serving as as a instructor for Commissar cadets

But Cadet Commissars are not trained in the Schola. And were Cain to teach progena, he'd be required to become a Drill-Abbot.

Mr Morden wrote:The quote (copied below) comes from the Sisters of Battle Codex (1997) p33
"From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world"
I would def agre that the latest IG codex says orphans are raised to be Stormtroopers (p46) - in the entry about the Scholas in general (p11) the text has been updated to say the orphan sons and daughters of Imperial Officials and there is no mention about absent parents - so I guess it depends if you accept the older entry as still valid?

Ah, that's what you mean! Well, they are still orphans - even though their parents would live on. It's similar to kids being given up for adoption, just that in this case they get adopted by the state (or rather the church).
Keep in mind the distances and the trouble with communication that we so often hear about in the writings, though. I suppose a certain amount of influence could be maintained if the parent was present locally on the same world or the same system, but if this were the case there wouldn't be any need to give up the child in the first place, so ...

Mr Morden wrote:The sports game - I will check but IIRC the prospective Sororitas recruits are playing a game on their own and are visible to the Commissar cadets through a window - they are not playing together......

I recall people mentioning a sports game where the "novices" play against the "cadets", with Cain reminiscing about how the girls were playing dirty, i.e. being rather violent about it.

Mr Morden wrote:The presence of a female Commissar cadet does seem to break the rules or segregation (which is not mentioned in the most recent IG codex entry either way) - but I guess if there is a single girl that fulfills the credentials and there is no set up for a female officer to teach her - they would either deny her entry or (perhaps more likely in the Imperium) just ignore the fact that she is female and treat her as just another recruit.

Female Cadet Commissars shouldn't be an issue per se - considering that these classes do not take place within a Schola. Gender-mixing would only happen after they "graduated". The novel simply ignores these details and has the classes take place within the Schola itself. In other words: Mitchell equals "progena" to "cadets" and "novices" when it should actually be separate stages of education/training in their lives (if one were to go by the studio material).

Cain has officially retired from active service and now is serving as as a instructor for Commissar cadets - which does tie in with the entry in the present Imperial Guard Codex: P32)

"Unlike individual regiments that are levied from their home worlds when they are needed , Commissars are raised in the Schola Progenium".

I think you missed this bit as to where Commissars are trained?? Unless you interpret it differently to me?

Also just found another relevant entry (if you are happy with older codexes): p60 of the IG codex (2003) under the entry for the Terrax Guard:

The Schola Progenium train many Imperial agents for war, notably Storm Troopers and Commissars

As usual with GW it may be that some primary sources are contradictory - But this may mean that the Author is not deviating from the official line in regard to who gets trained at Schola?

re the children - if the child is from an important family in the Imperium I think he or she would still carry that legecy - hence the line "favoured sons of Imperial Guard Colonels"?
I can't find the bit about the sports game anywhere in the novel - the bit I thought was actually the potential Sororitas recruits being seen throuhg a window going through unarmed combat training on the parade ground.....rather than a game..........

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:You can't say that with any certainty at all.

Yes I can, as it was specifically stated to be such.

The existence of one extreme case points to the possibility of others, with less heinous acts.

But find me the quote, perhaps it does say that there has only ever been one sister has not confessed everything to a Confessor at the first opportunity.

Mr Morden wrote:As usual with GW it may be that some primary sources are contradictory - But this may mean that the Author is not deviating from the official line in regard to who gets trained at Schola?

There is no contradiction. The sources - which I have cited - are pretty specific. The Schola is part of the training for Commissars because every Commissar has been a Progena at some point in his/her life. That doesn't change that they do not actually join the Commissariat until after they leave the Schola.
The Schola Progenium also trains future Inquisitors and Assassinorum Operatives; do you really believe that means they'd have "Inquisition classes" or "Assassin curriculums" there?

Mr Morden wrote:re the children - if the child is from an important family in the Imperium I think he or she would still carry that legecy - hence the line "favoured sons of Imperial Guard Colonels"?

The legacy of a name, you mean? Of course - that doesn't make a network, though, it just raises expectations on how they should perform. The child will still be out of contact with any living parents or relatives - in fact, this isolation is an important part of their education and indoctrination.

Mr Morden wrote:I can't find the bit about the sports game anywhere in the novel - the bit I thought was actually the potential Sororitas recruits being seen throuhg a window going through unarmed combat training on the parade ground.....rather than a game..........

It was referenced by other posters earlier in this thread, and I have seen it being talked about in more than a dozen others. It would surprise me if all these people were wrong. Maybe another dakkanaut would have more luck finding the passage for you?

Talk on this stuff can also easily be found by a quick google search on the terms "Cain", "Sororitas" and "sports". From another website: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=142543.0
"There were actually Adepta Sororitas novitiate's at Cain's schola.... They're referred to as the only ones the commissarial cadets disliked facing at scrumball, due to their tendancy to treat the aim of the game as causing as many hospitalizations as possible, rather than scoring goals."
Judging by the first post in that thread it seems there are a few more readers who thought that the novel is pretty weird in its depiction of the Imperium, even moreso this facet of the Imperium.

The Sisters were said to usually focus on injuring their opponents more than winning the game, Scrumball, I believe, probably a Rugby stand-in.

edit: Yeah, like the lower quote Lynata provided.

Melissia wrote:
edit: Yeah, like the lower quote Lynata provided.

You mean in response to my post?

She can't - because all the quotes from studio material (many of which have been provided throughout this thread) rule out such extreme cases on general principle - even one.

Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:As usual with GW it may be that some primary sources are contradictory - But this may mean that the Author is not deviating from the official line in regard to who gets trained at Schola?

There is no contradiction. The sources - which I have cited - are pretty specific. The Schola is part of the training for Commissars because every Commissar has been a Progena at some point in his/her life. That doesn't change that they do not actually join the Commissariat until after they leave the Schola.
The Schola Progenium also trains future Inquisitors and Assassinorum Operatives; do you really believe that means they'd have "Inquisition classes" or "Assassin curriculums" there?

No I don't believe that and to be fair did not suggest it - the sources I quoted are equally specific and make no mention of ny other training and in the case of the quote from the present IG codex is he most upto date studio information avaialble on the subject. It does not say - Commissars are recruitedf form those attending the Schola - both stuido sources state that they are raised or trained there. The depiciton in the novel follows the above official sources in regard to Commissar training

Inquisitors do not appear to go through a specific training regime - .

with regards to the lack of importance of a childs heritage - again I think you underestimate the importance of nepotism and connections in the Imperium - yes you will be expected to achieve more but I can't see any direct passage that probhibts contact with other elements of the family - again this may be very infrequent - perhaps once or twice a year and as ever IMO connects nicely with the concept behind them - the English Public School system. Its also quite likely that a Nobles or Officers relatives are probably more distant and unforgiving than the Schola staff.......

As you said before I thinks its best to agree to disagree - I think the Cain novels usually paint an accurate picture of the Imperium - at least no less than those of Dan Abnet or Aaron Dembski-Bowden - who I think with SM are the best that the BL can offer. They put the flesh on the sketchy bones that GW created.

With regard to the link -reading through all the posts they seemed to think it sounded fine - and the first poster seemed to miss the bits about criminals being shipped in for torture and live firing exercises, the harsh phyiscal training and the constant preeching by the schola Abbots etc etc - all of which Cain saw as perfectly normal.

but each to their own

Lynata wrote:There was also a blurb about Commissar Cadet squads in WD115:
"Personnel selected to become Cadet Commissars are drawn from schools run by Missionaries of the Ministorum. There are many such schools throughout the Imperium, known as Schola Progenium. Here, orphans of Imperial Officials who gave their lives in the service of the Emperor are educated by the Missionaries. They soon learn to regard the Emperor as their spiritual father and build a strong personal devotion to the Imperial cause."

Its text was also reprinted in the Wh40k Compilation book, and this part of it makes it clear that the Progena do not become Cadet Commissars until after they have finished Schola training:
"The Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard Regiment selects the most promising recruits from those recommended to him by the schools of the Ministorum. After basic Imperial Guard training, these become Cadet Commissars and proceed to special training for their demanding responsibilities as Commissars."

Both of these sources pre-date 2nd Edition and modern 40K. They can't be used as legitimate 40K source material. This is the same age as Half-Eldar astropaths and rival Ork/Human biker gangs, lol. Heck, the Sisters of Battle didn't even exist in 40K except as a blurb in Rogue Trader when those two sources were published. Cadet Commissars don't even exist in the game anymore, and haven't as a unit for almost 20 years.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In the end it does come down to aesthetic. You and Melissa are quite a bit more hardline, by the book, purists with your fluff. Those of us who prefer more realistic interpretations and three dimensional characters

Your preferences about the sisters ARE the unrealistic ones.

Weird fetishes... thinking that religiously devout people can't be three dimensional... thinking that they can't be realistic (where do YOU live?)...

Just because they're three dimensional, realistic characters doesn't meant they're fething around with everyone like you want them to. Quite a damned few female-only organizations IN THE REAL WORLD manage to live vows of chastity and self-denial, both in terms of sex and drugs and gambling and other baser desires. Just because you like to live in denial doesn't make it untrue or unreal. It just means you're living in denial.

Wait. Ad hominem attacks from Melissia mated to no actual legitimate argument? Shocking.

Mr Morden wrote:No I don't believe that and to be fair did not suggest it - the sources I quoted are equally specific and make no mention of ny other training and in the case of the quote from the present IG codex is he most upto date studio information avaialble on the subject. It does not say - Commissars are recruitedf form those attending the Schola - both stuido sources state that they are raised or trained there. The depiciton in the novel follows the above official sources in regard to Commissar training.

Looking at that very Codex I spot this line:
"Many who pass through the hands of the Schola Progenium are initiated into the Adeptus Terra. Some find their way into the Inquisition. Some find their way into the Inquisition, and the most studious and zealous are welcomed by the Ecclesiarchy. For natural warriors the Imperial Guard offers a place in one of the eltie Storm Trooper companies, where the training received is of brutally high standard. A few individuals, those who are both natural leaders and are fiercely loyal, attract the attentions of the Commissariat."

*To me* this means that one has to pass through the Schola to become a member of the Commissariat. Which means they are not as long as they remain progena. It further clearly states that Storm Trooper training happens in the companies themselves and under the auspices of the Imperial Guard, not the Schola/Ecclesiarchy.

All of this is in line with earlier studio material, but contradicted by this novel. If you think that line says something else, then ... well, there's not much we can do about it!

Mr Morden wrote:I think you underestimate the importance of nepotism and connections in the Imperium

Not in the slightest - but I do think that, whilst a noble may certainly have the means to influence the local Ecclesiarchy, I'd have my doubts that anything below a High Lord or a Sector Governor can influence the Ecclesiarchy as a whole, which would be necessary, considering that there is quite some distance between the Schola facility and whatever planet (what was the line, "posted on a distant world"?) the parents are. To put it simply, Arch-Abbot Ignatius Doe isn't going to care much about the opinion of a Baron Smithings from planet B3K in Sub-sector Randomus about how he should do his job.
Furthermore, much of these connections is maintained by the Sisters Famulous, who, as part of the Adepta Sororitas, should have no interest in allowing any living parents to interfere with the blessed education of a child now in the care of the church anyways.

tl;dr: an orphan is an orphan is an orphan. Service in the Imperium's armed forces tends to make men equal, overriding any origins and bloodlines with contemporary rank and station. That Imperial Guard Colonel who had to give up his son isn't going to see his own homeworld anymore, anyways. What sort of influence is he supposed to wield from the inside of a troopship in warp-transit or a tent in the field of some Emperor-forsaken world ravaged by war?

Mr Morden wrote:With regard to the link -reading through all the posts they seemed to think it sounded fine - and the first poster seemed to miss the bits about criminals being shipped in for torture and live firing exercises, the harsh phyiscal training and the constant preeching by the schola Abbots etc etc - all of which Cain saw as perfectly normal.

I think he was referring to the conduct of the children and the teachers. Obviously this is a matter of perception and preferences, though. Some think this is more realistic, others simply prefer it for being more light-hearted and funny, yet others disapprove of it dismantling the grimdark. It's just like Gav Thorpe said @ "tens of thousands of overlapping realities".

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Both of these sources pre-date 2nd Edition and modern 40K. They can't be used as legitimate 40K source material.

"legitimate 40k source material"?

Apart from the people writing these books already having said that this is a question all of us have to answer for ourselves, individually, there are actually things from 1E that did not change over the years. Like the Imperium being headed by the immortal God-Emperor, for example. Or the description of Battle Sisters, where the authors of the Witch Hunter Codex even clearly stated in the design notes that they went all the way back to the very first Rogue Trader rulebook for their fluff. So why should I believe that this is an aspect that has changed?
Usually, I'm operating on a "newer source overrides older source" policy, but this includes "old source remains valid until contradicted".

If you happen to have a studio source that does indeed offer a different portrayal, I probably haven't seen it yet. Do you?

Should you simply take outsourced publications such as this novel as capable of overriding studio material, though, then we are simply following incompatible methods of interpretation. Which isn't bad (as stated neither vision can be "wrong"), but just makes the discussion somewhat pointless.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Cadet Commissars don't even exist in the game anymore, and haven't as a unit for almost 20 years.

Well, this novel had Cadet Commissars, apparently. And since when does the fluff only consist of what we see on the table? See: Frateris Militia.

It's your choice to use Rogue Trader material.

I'm just pointing out that it's consistency is always questionable, and not a very good practice if you intend to make convincing arguments. Inspiration for current models and fluff? Sure. Linearly consistent? No.

Sure, it's everyone's choice what material to use. This includes the novel in question.

Personally, I'm just primarily sticking to studio material (as I still have more consistency there than between, say, BL novels - simply because less writers means less different visions), and when the linear consistency is not questioned by newer products of the same origin, why should I (or anyone else) assume it is?

In the end, it all boils down to our selection of sources, and yes, I still prefer even the original Rogue Trader to some Black Library novel when I feel it's more in vibe with the 'verse and hasn't been contradicted elsewhere.

Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:No I don't believe that and to be fair did not suggest it - the sources I quoted are equally specific and make no mention of ny other training and in the case of the quote from the present IG codex is he most upto date studio information available on the subject. It does not say - Commissars are recruited form those attending the Schola - both studio sources state that they are raised or trained there. The depiction in the novel follows the above official sources in regard to Commissar training.

Looking at that very Codex I spot this line:
"Many who pass through the hands of the Schola Progenium are initiated into the Adeptus Terra. Some find their way into the Inquisition. Some find their way into the Inquisition, and the most studious and zealous are welcomed by the Ecclesiarchy. For natural warriors the Imperial Guard offers a place in one of the elite Storm Trooper companies, where the training received is of brutally high standard. A few individuals, those who are both natural leaders and are fiercely loyal, attract the attentions of the Commissariat."

*To me* this means that one has to pass through the Schola to become a member of the Commissariat. Which means they are not as long as they remain progena. It further clearly states that Storm Trooper training happens in the companies themselves and under the auspices of the Imperial Guard, not the Schola/Ecclesiarchy.

All of this is in line with earlier studio material, but contradicted by this novel. If you think that line says something else, then ... well, there's not much we can do about it!

The Terrax example still stands?

I may indeed be wrong on this point - although the entry for Stormtroopers also says that they are trained at the Schola and makes no mention of further training later. Again this does fit with your comparison with Hitler youth style indoctrination or similar to that in Starship troopers with the students graduating in their late teens ready for their new roles - which the author seems to be going along with.

Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:I think you underestimate the importance of nepotism and connections in the Imperium

Not in the slightest - but I do think that, whilst a noble may certainly have the means to influence the local Ecclesiarchy, I'd have my doubts that anything below a High Lord or a Sector Governor can influence the Ecclesiarchy as a whole, which would be necessary, considering that there is quite some distance between the Schola facility and whatever planet (what was the line, "posted on a distant world"?) the parents are. To put it simply, Arch-Abbot Ignatius Doe isn't going to care much about the opinion of a Baron Smithings from planet B3K in Sub-sector Randomus about how he should do his job.
Furthermore, much of these connections is maintained by the Sisters Famulous, who, as part of the Adepta Sororitas, should have no interest in allowing any living parents to interfere with the blessed education of a child now in the care of the church anyways.

tl;dr: an orphan is an orphan is an orphan. Service in the Imperium's armed forces tends to make men equal, overriding any origins and bloodlines with contemporary rank and station. That Imperial Guard Colonel who had to give up his son isn't going to see his own homeworld anymore, anyways. What sort of influence is he supposed to wield from the inside of a troopship in warp-transit or a tent in the field of some Emperor-forsaken world ravaged by war?

Except who says that where they will end up - it may simply be tradition to send your noble/important children to the Schola to ensure the "right" education and we all know that the Church is not above bribery and corruption - the Sisterhood may well be - but the church is not.

Lynata wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:With regard to the link -reading through all the posts they seemed to think it sounded fine - and the first poster seemed to miss the bits about criminals being shipped in for torture and live firing exercises, the harsh physical training and the constant preeching by the schola Abbots etc etc - all of which Cain saw as perfectly normal.

I think he was referring to the conduct of the children and the teachers. Obviously this is a matter of perception and preferences, though. Some think this is more realistic, others simply prefer it for being more light-hearted and funny, yet others disapprove of it dismantling the grimdark. It's just like Gav Thorpe said @ "tens of thousands of overlapping realities".

See that's my point - it all seems very nice until you really read the book - what they consider a normal and indeed reassuring part of schola life is the routine execution and torture of criminals - is that not grimdark? Cain and Amberely are relatively nice but they will torture and kill without a second thought if they consider it the right thing to do ....

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Cadet Commissars don't even exist in the game anymore, and haven't as a unit for almost 20 years.

Well, this novel had Cadet Commissars, apparently. And since when does the fluff only consist of what we see on the table? See: Frateris Militia.

Mr Morden wrote:The Terrax example still stands?

Terrax example?

Mr Morden wrote:although the entry for Stormtroopers also says that they are trained at the Schola and makes no mention of further training later

Well, as I said, I don't perceive this as a conflict but an addition: Every Storm Trooper has been a progena once, so naturally they have received military training. Not in special classes but the same kind of special education allotted to all orphans who have displayed the capacity to serve in the armed forces. If there are classes (it's hard to say and certainly leaves room for interpretation), the studio material thus far makes it sound as if they'd be segregated both by gender as well as displayed aptitude ... so certainly you'd have the Schola nudge them towards a certain career path deemed suitable depending on their evaluation. But in the end, whether a progena would become, say, a Storm Trooper or a Commissar or an Arbiter wouldn't be decided until after he finished his education and was put forward for recruitment.

Mr Morden wrote:Except who says that where they will end up - it may simply be tradition to send your noble/important children to the Schola to ensure the "right" education

Well, we know they don't end up in planetary governance. Whilst it would certainly come with some degree of approval by the common people, I'm fairly sure the nobles themselves would see the Schola as nothing other than a dumping ground for kids who are difficult to provide for on their own world - like back in medieval times when the 2nd son was sent to become a priest.

Even if their parents would still be alive, progena are effectively cut off from the line of succession and unable to take over the parents' estates. They wouldn't even get to set foot upon their homeworld again. Consider the careers: Scribes are sent to the Adeptus Terra, Guardsmen (including Storm Troopers) and Commissars are sent to fight on faraway worlds, and we know that Arbites are not deployed on their own homeworld by tradition to reduce fraternization.

Just doesn't sound like a place you'd put your kid in if you still cared for him/her. Nobles in particular should be able to find a much more suitable place on their own homeworld. If they care for military glory, they can always be posted as officers in the PDF. And if you really have to see your son fight for the Emprah, nominate his regiment for recruitment by the Imperial Guard. This way you will actually see him grow up and can ensure he goes into war as a senior officer leading his own formation, rather than a random Storm Trooper Corporal. Much more prestigious in the eyes of the public, too.

Just how I see things right now, mind you.

Mr Morden wrote:See that's my point - it all seems very nice until you really read the book - what they consider a normal and indeed reassuring part of schola life is the routine execution and torture of criminals - is that not grimdark?

Sororitas playing cards and having lovers is not grimdark, no. It erodes this army's grimdarkness at the very core by attacking the Sisters' 100% dedication to their cause. It's why I dislike this book so much. It steals their determination and turns them into "modern day" people.

Mr Morden wrote:Question: Do you think the Commissariat has its own academy's or is it on the job training?

Mhm, a few weeks ago I would have answered differently and speculated about a mix of both (perhaps the Commissariat squatting in a dedicated area of a large segmentum or sector command facility), but as I don't feel so strongly about this aspect, I think I'm going to adopt GW's version. Here's the entire fluff text from the Compendium, by the way:

The Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard Regiment selects the most promising recruits from those recommended to him by the schools of the Ministorum. After basic Imperial Guard training, these become Cadet Commissars and proceed to special training for their demanding responsibilities as Commissars. The best way to achieve this is for the Cadets to be instructed under battleship conditions.

For a Cadet Commissar to learn how to function according to his vocation, he must understand the nature of the troops for whose morale and spiritual welfare he is accountable. "You cannot teach in theory what has to be practised in a storm of energy beams", was how Commissara-General Obin Heethe summed up the need for Cadet Commissars to live, fight, and if necessary die alongside the troops they were supposed to inspire. For this reason, Cadet Commissars use the same standard weapon as Imperial Guardsmen, the lasgun. This training forms the basis of much of the respect accorded to Commissars by Guardsmen, for they know that only those Cadets who have shown bravery and devotion in the face of enemy fire are selected.

For an experienced Commissar, there is no greater recognition of his service to the Emperor than to be deemed worthy of instructing a new generation of Commissars.

Commissar Training Squad

The Commissar-General is the senior Commissar of the regiment with the longest service and most extensive campaign experience. He assigns Commissars to Imperial Guard officers according to his judgment of the battlefield situation or the character of the Imperial Guard officers in question. Cadet Commissars are allocated to Commissar Training Squads by the Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard regiment. These squad members are identified by a blue uniform trim and Cadet badge.

The Commissar-General assigns one of his Commissars to take the regiment's Cadets and form a tactical unit in its own right, known as the Commissar Training Squad. The unit is made up of one Commissar and nine Cadet Commissars. The Commissar Training Squad accompanies Imperial Guard forces into battle and takes part in some of the fiercest fighting.

The training of a Cadet Commissar has no fixed duration. A Cadet qualifies as a full Commissar on the judgment of the Commissar-General. He will be awarded his Commissar status as soon as he is deemed worthy of it by his actions. This provides great inspiration to the other Cadets on the battlefield. The new Commissar can then be allocated Commissarial duties in his own right. Commissar Training Squads are highly motivated fighting units, respected by all other troops in the Imperial Guard. Any Imperial Guard force accompanied by such squads will consider itself fortunate and probably destined for victory.

When a Commissar decides that a Cadet has failed in his duty, but has not shown cowardice or insubordination, the Cadet is relieved of his position and duties. Commissar Cadets who fail their training can often get a commission in a penal battalion. Others volunteer for service in a Rogue Trader entourage. Sometimes, their destiny will be decided by the Commissar-General or Commissar under whom the ex-Cadet trained.

Since "basic IG training" is done aboard the troopships in transit, I assume this means that progena destined to become Commissars are shipped off to rendezvous with the regiment, board the transport and are formed into a fresh squad right away. Then they have a few weeks of playing Guardsman (their Schola education will come in handy here) before they begin doing Commissar stuff.

Mr Morden wrote:Again given the regime the children are brought up in do you no think they would be ready at a young age to fulfil these duties?

Probably depends on when the progena gratulate... But either way, being ready isn't the same as actually doing it or assuming this function. After all, the same can be said about Inquisitors or Assassinorum operatives...

... now there's a creepy thought - kid-assassins! This is actually something I could think the Imperium is capable of pulling off. I wonder why GW didn't get this idea yet. An Assassin Temple of child-soldiers who are trained in both looking innocent as well as killing relentlessly.

Mr Morden wrote:Duty Calls had the Sisters benefitting from the strength of their powered armour

To be fair, I've always considered their armour to provide some form of strength boost - it's just not as much or as impressive as the Marine version. See: Sisters wielding heavy bolters. Evidently, the servos and fibre-bundles must have some capability to this regard, at least enough for the armour to carry itself or make it easier to wear. Otherwise there'd be no point in powering it at all.

Lynata wrote:She can't - because all the quotes from studio material (many of which have been provided throughout this thread) rule out such extreme cases on general principle - even one.

General principle and exceptions to the general principle. Is the point being miscommunicated at all? I agree entirely with the general rule, but it's not impossible for exceptions to exist.

After all, the general rule is that Commissars are zealous, soulless political officers that would readily sacrifice themselves to serve as an example (though generally make do with having others as examples).

Hazardous Harry wrote:I agree entirely with the general rule, but it's not impossible for exceptions to exist.

Exceptions like Swallow's Miriya I will happily accept. Melissia and I merely disagree on how far on the extreme end the exception in Mitchell's novel has been taken. As I said, it attacks the very core of this army's spirit and style. It's like having an Ultramarine who behaves like a Space Wolf. If you have no problem with such "exceptions" ... well, we will have to agree to disagree.

[edit] After seeing that BA thread, I shall also remind proponents of this "exception theory" of their opinion every time they complain about one of Goto's novels.