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Jews and Muslims are a lot harder in that regard for me. They do worship and believe in the same God that I do after all. If Jews follow the old laws and the old rituals, do they still find grace in God? If so I think it would depend on faith again though. I have looked a little bit at messianic Jews and I think that they have an interesting take on that and if there is somebody who follows that faith here I would also love to get more insight on that. Muslims are in the same boat for me, which means it is hard to understand.
As a Christian it is easier to justify that somebody is wrong if they don't believe in the same God as you. It is harder to justify that somebody is wrong if they believe in the same God but approach Him differently. I do believe that Jesus is the only way, but does that mean that there is no partial credit?
the problem here is disagreement pertaining to who is correct in their belief, because their belief also deals with matters of practice and doctrine. Christians believe that god and JC are one and the same. This is anathema to the jews, who don't even acknowledge JC, and the muslims acknowledge the JC as just another prophet. Jews and Muslims still await the coming of their savior, and in both cases, it's to liberate and achieve freedom for them and their kind. Think about Calvins, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics and any other of the christians and how at eachotehr's thrroats they are over who is right and correct in their faith. It's one thing to look at everything a a giant family tree with one patriarch, the fact however is that the differences make the different faiths irreconcilable because they disagree on principles of morality and faith.
Different approach is the difference between catholic and lutheran. Jew and Christian follow a different god entirely. (On that note, my reading has suggested that Jesus was the same kind of hardline fundamentalist that we see with some muslims today).
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
I don't deny that there are certain things in the universe that we don't know and probably can't comprehend but personally as I see it, it doesn't affect me and whether or not there truly is a higher power I would never opt to be part of a Religion even if there was proof.
I'm definitely Atheist/Agnostic. There is also no way to prove that Tzeech did not create Games Workshop.
It's not like this hasn't been discussed over 9,000 times before.
*takes seat at the bar with the other Dakka regulars*
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are also 11 dimensions in the universe, and those who commit the heresy of advocating for a 10 dimensional universe are leading civilization into barbarism and will regress us irreversibly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/15 20:59:45
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
There are also 11 dimensions in the universe, and those who commit the heresy of advocating for a 10 dimensional universe are leading civilization into barbarism and will regress us irreversibly.
I was at some point goign to bring this up, but decided to wait for someone else.
The problem that's raised is between the 4-6 dimensions. Problems exist higher up too, but, trying to bring theism into a discussion on an infinity of parrallel universes, I imagine doesn't bode well.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
While this doesn't pertain to all religious people, I refuse to believe that I must be a member of an organized religion to have good morals and be a good person, which seems to be all that keeps being driven into me.
I'm sorry, but it's complete crap. I never go to church unless it is to be nice to someone(maybe once every two years), and I don't officially prescribe to any religion on Earth. And yet, two weeks ago, at two o-clock in the morning while coming home from a DnD game with buddies, I was the second car on the scene of a horrendous wreck on the highway. I stopped the car and ran to help. Something inside of me that I can't define demanded that I had no other choice.
Afterwards, I couldn't help but think about the five minutes it took for emergency vehicles to hit the scene, and how many cars (at least a dozen, even at that time of night) screamed by at full speed while I (with no first aid training) held a comatose girl's head steady where she landed after being thrown from the wreck- so hard that her clothes had been stripped almost completely off, probably on the way out of the window.
I'll bet for sure that at any other time of the day, some of them would consider themselves far more godly and much better church-goers than a heathen like me, and i think the situation proved the truth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/15 23:31:20
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote:While this doesn't pertain to all religious people, I refuse to believe that I must be a member of an organized religion to have good morals and be a good person, which seems to be all that keeps being driven into me.
I'm sorry, but it's complete crap. I never go to church unless it is to be nice to someone(maybe once every two years), and I don't officially prescribe to any religion on Earth. And yet, two weeks ago, at two o-clock in the morning while coming home from a DnD game with buddies, I was the second car on the scene of a horrendous wreck on the highway. I stopped the car and ran to help. Something inside of me that I can't define demanded that I had no other choice.
Afterwards, I couldn't help but think about the five minutes it took for emergency vehicles to hit the scene, and how many cars (at least a dozen, even at that time of night) screamed by at full speed while I (with no first aid training) held a comatose girl's head steady where she landed after being thrown from the wreck- so hard that her clothes had been stripped almost completely off, probably on the way out of the window.
I'll bet for sure that at any other time of the day, some of them would consider themselves far more godly and much better church-goers than a heathen like me, and i think the situation proved the truth.
yes, but, your country's litigious system is one where everyone sues for everything. Your moral standard may have just shot you in the foot for having done something that you had no training to do. Ah, the joys of america, where a predominantly christian nation proceeds to be litigious on every account of everything..... I love how the entire basis of the tort legal system goes against the christian grain, and yet, it is 11/10 times the first thing moralised christians resort to..... i find it sad, but amusing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/15 23:36:17
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
yes, but, your country's litigious system is one where everyone sues for everything. Your moral standard may have just shot you in the foot for having done something that you had no training to do. Ah, the joys of america, where a predominantly christian nation proceeds to be litigious on every account of everything..... I love how the entire basis of the tort legal system goes against the christian grain, and yet, it is 11/10 times the first thing moralised christians resort to..... i find it sad, but amusing.
Absolutely not. It's called the "Good Samaritan Law" in my state (Michigan). Simply the fact that you were willing to help versus letting them lie there alone protects you. As if at that point I even cared.
The paramedics, Firefighters and cops thanked me and the married couple that stopped just barely before me (they luckily were first responders) personally with handshakes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/15 23:50:40
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Is it just me or is there a direct link between people poo-pooing organised religion, and a lack of knowledge about theology? Possibly a lot of it stems from modern day evengelical baptist movement in the united states - a movement that, as far as I'm aware, has no theological basis whatsoever.
The slave trade was abolished by and large as a result of evangelical Christianity in the UK. Not to mention centuries of charitable work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 00:25:01
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
Testify wrote:Is it just me or is there a direct link between people poo-pooing organised religion, and a lack of knowledge about theology? Possibly a lot of it stems from modern day evengelical baptist movement in the united states - a movement that, as far as I'm aware, has no theological basis whatsoever.
The slave trade was abolished by and large as a result of evangelical Christianity in the UK. Not to mention centuries of charitable work.
In my opinion it depends on who it is doing the not knowing.
I think that makes sense but I don't actually understand it. Headache.
Coolyo294 wrote: I'm a Christian. I believe in God and go to church on a semi-regular basis, but I still believe in things like evolution and the big bang theory.
Pretty much that, barring the attending formal church meetings. The churches I have attended seem to be celebrations of dogmatism and hearsay, rather than a gathering of people who have actually studied the scripture that they profess belief in, let alone the scholarship and historical contexts necessary to grapple with their own faith. Granted, this is (hopefully) a geographical issue with local churches, but suffice it to say that it has mostly poisoned me against regular attendance of organized church meetings.
Granted, this is (hopefully) a geographical issue with local churches, but suffice it to say that it has mostly poisoned me against regular attendance of organized church meetings.
Not really. Up here in Michigan my wife has had trouble with churches before she met me because she was going to school to be a Science teacher. They treated her like she must be trying to disprove God. She felt like they were trying to make an opponent out of her, rather than accept her.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 04:04:18
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Granted, this is (hopefully) a geographical issue with local churches, but suffice it to say that it has mostly poisoned me against regular attendance of organized church meetings.
Not really. Up here in Michigan my wife has had trouble with churches before she met me because she was going to school to be a Science teacher. They treated her like she must be trying to disprove God. She felt like they were trying to make an opponent out of her, rather than accept her.
The biggest weakness in church is that it contains people. Most often, it's not church doctrine that drives people away, but other people ostracising others.
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
The Bringer wrote:Really people, Leviticus was part of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was overthrown when the New Covenant was made and the law was written on our hearts, with Christ as our high priest and our perfect sacrifice. So to answer you p_gray99, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and I no longer need to sacrifice animals continually as atonement for my sins. For all you others, the law was written on our hearts, voiding the law of Leviticus.
For all those that realize that this voids what Leviticus says about homosexuality (assuming that is what the Greek refers to), read Romans 1:26-27. The fact is Leviticus is not the only book of the Bible that addresses homosexuality.
Mattrym, what do you have to say about the Bible discriminating against homosexuals now? I would rather like to stay on that topic.
D*mn, he knows what he's talking about! Oh well, this calls for some proper conversion time.
Ok, time for a few old favourites. How do you deal with the following:
1) The problem of evil. God is all-powerful, so can stop evil, all-knowing so knows evil exists, and is all-loving so wants to stop evil. So why does evil still exist?
2) Contradictions. Don't say there aren't any, there are. If you can say that none of these are contradictions, well done. But until then, how can all the bible be right when it contradicts itself?
3) Uh... to be honest, I think you've already got plenty enough there to explain. Good luck, you'll need it
I'm not one for listening to atheist talk about the bible but, when this guy did "Thou shalt not kill" in the John Cleese voice I couldn't breath I was laughing so hard.
Right, so GENERALLY all of the morals in the bible are based around the idea that you shouldn't harm other people:
Thou shalt not kill - yeah, killing harms other people
Thou shalt not steal - stealing harms other people (in a round about way)
Thou shalt not commit adultery - given marriage was basically there in order to raise kids, adultery would not only emotionally harm your spouse, but also your children. it destabilises the marriage, and allows for the possibility for kids outside of marriage, which could lead to them being harmed as they aren't brought up in a secure family environment.
It seems that the majority of (at least new testament) laws are not only commanded by god, but are also morally correct in and of themselves - harming human beings is generally a no-no, in all societies, because lets face it, no one wants to be harmed. It's very beneficial to all of us.
NOW, the commandments about homosexuality; homosexuality does not harm anyone. If both parties consent, and it doesn't clash with the adultery law (which does harm people) then it doesn't cause harm.
As such it is one of the only laws in the bible which don't have a moral basis outside of it being commanded by God (sex outside of marriage, IN THE TIME THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN, was technically harmful, as since there was no reliable contraception (YAY! CONDOMS! ) sex generally lead to kids. Without being bound by marital law, a parent could easily abandon their partner and children, as such leaden to harm) and as such, the only reason behind it is divine command.
So basically, the only logic behind homosexuality being wrong is because "God" (was written by men) said so. There's no other reason behind it.
Now, some might say; "god is perfect and completely moral, and therefore whatever he commands is completely moral". However there's a problem with this:
THE EUTHYPHRO DILLEMA:
Now, there are two options about morals:
1) God commands morals because they are right.
OR
2) Morals are right because God commands them.
Now, let's take a look at the first one:
If this is the case, then morals appear to be a force separate from god; if he follows the laws of morality in his commandments it stands to reason he didn't create them, and that they existed prior to the universe. As such, it would mean god hadn't created everything and wasn't all powerful. This is not the definition of God. there fore it cannot be the case.
THEREFORE we must choose option 2:
If morals are moral because God commanded them, and that is the only reason they are moral (rather than being built on logic or existing separate to him) then we reach a problem. Because if morals are only moral because god commands them, whatever god commands automatically becomes moral. Now, why does god command such morals? They don't exist externally to him. He decides what they are with nothing external aiding or affecting his decision - its all on him. Now, since he has no reason or logic behind choosing the morals (as such would fall under option one and violate the definition of God) then it stands to reason that such decisions are ARBITRARY.
Hence, all morals are simply the result of God's whim. Therefore, those morals for which we can find no reason for following OURSELVES beyond gods command, have no reason behind them apart from whimsy. There's no reason for following them. There is no more reason behind god saying homosexuality is wrong than there is reason behind me fancying a chicken sandwich for lunch, i just looked in my fridge and acted on whim (loose analogy, analogies are weak in general, i will agree with that, (i.e.; I can eat chicken, God can't, or morals aren't physical ect. ect.) however no matter how loose it is, it isn't intended as a proof, it just demonstrates the rest of my point, so you know what i mean )
I'm not sure I want to follow a moral law thats the result of a whim, unless i can justify it myself.
Im pretty sure the command against homosexuality therefore is wrong.
EDIT:
I would like to add;
Generally a reason given for worshiping god is that he is perfectly moral.
How do we measure how moral God is? Well, we measure him against the moral code of christianity - god is free of all sin and loves everyone, which according to the Christian moral code means he is perfectly moral.
However, this is according to the christian moral code.
God created the christian moral code.
Therefore all we are saying is that by being perfectly moral, god is following the commandments he himself created, to the letter.
So, by worshiping god for being perfectly moral, all we are really worshiping him for, is the fact that he is consistent.
We are worshiping god for not being a hypocrite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 18:30:15
Or we could focus on the aspect of the laws that existed to mark God's people as distinct from the other people around them. Those laws existed for no other purpose than to mark them as a distinct people and nation.
So homosexuality could have easily been outlawed not because of some complex code of morality and sense of right or wrong. It could have been outlawed because everybody around them was having gay sex so Israel wasn't gonna do that.
In which case it's not morals, its snobbery. Not something we should really be worshiping.
Therefore, the Christians (not the general christians, I'm not being prejudice, I just mean the bigoted ones) really have two options:
1) forget the gay hate. Accept that those particular commandments are the result of the authors decision - the HUMAN who wrote leviticus, while he followed many of God's commandments in doing so, also inserted some of his own laws, which weren't those of God.
2) accept that morality is built on whim, snobbery and narcissism, and therefore we should reject God.
walker90234 wrote:In which case it's not morals, its snobbery. Not something we should really be worshiping.
Therefore, the Christians (not the general christians, I'm not being prejudice, I just mean the bigoted ones) really have two options:
1) forget the gay hate. Accept that those particular commandments are the result of the authors decision - the HUMAN who wrote leviticus, while he followed many of God's commandments in doing so, also inserted some of his own laws, which weren't those of God.
2) accept that morality is built on whim, snobbery and narcissism, and therefore we should reject God.
I wonder which one they'll pick...
Neither. It's a fallacy. They have other options, such as not caring about our opinion. People have vastly different opinions on the bible, even within individual faiths. They'll do what they want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 18:54:25
The Bringer wrote:Really people, Leviticus was part of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was overthrown when the New Covenant was made and the law was written on our hearts, with Christ as our high priest and our perfect sacrifice. So to answer you p_gray99, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and I no longer need to sacrifice animals continually as atonement for my sins. For all you others, the law was written on our hearts, voiding the law of Leviticus.
For all those that realize that this voids what Leviticus says about homosexuality (assuming that is what the Greek refers to), read Romans 1:26-27. The fact is Leviticus is not the only book of the Bible that addresses homosexuality.
Mattrym, what do you have to say about the Bible discriminating against homosexuals now? I would rather like to stay on that topic.
D*mn, he knows what he's talking about! Oh well, this calls for some proper conversion time.
Ok, time for a few old favourites. How do you deal with the following:
1) The problem of evil. God is all-powerful, so can stop evil, all-knowing so knows evil exists, and is all-loving so wants to stop evil. So why does evil still exist?
2) Contradictions. Don't say there aren't any, there are. If you can say that none of these are contradictions, well done. But until then, how can all the bible be right when it contradicts itself?
3) Uh... to be honest, I think you've already got plenty enough there to explain. Good luck, you'll need it
1. is pretty simple to my memory so I'll answer for The Bringer with what I remember from asking a Catholic Bishop that exact question. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving but He gave us the choice. It all comes down to free will, you don't have to accept god, or anything else, if god wanted servants or slaves he could make more mindless beasts exactly to his design, but he created children in his own image, and the ability to make up their own minds. Just like a loving parent with a child the parent knows the child has to be free to make their own mistakes and learn and grow.
Edit: and doesn't Carlin always do everything better?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 19:17:29
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
The Bringer wrote:Really people, Leviticus was part of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was overthrown when the New Covenant was made and the law was written on our hearts, with Christ as our high priest and our perfect sacrifice. So to answer you p_gray99, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and I no longer need to sacrifice animals continually as atonement for my sins. For all you others, the law was written on our hearts, voiding the law of Leviticus.
For all those that realize that this voids what Leviticus says about homosexuality (assuming that is what the Greek refers to), read Romans 1:26-27. The fact is Leviticus is not the only book of the Bible that addresses homosexuality.
Mattrym, what do you have to say about the Bible discriminating against homosexuals now? I would rather like to stay on that topic.
D*mn, he knows what he's talking about! Oh well, this calls for some proper conversion time.
Ok, time for a few old favourites. How do you deal with the following:
1) The problem of evil. God is all-powerful, so can stop evil, all-knowing so knows evil exists, and is all-loving so wants to stop evil. So why does evil still exist?
2) Contradictions. Don't say there aren't any, there are. If you can say that none of these are contradictions, well done. But until then, how can all the bible be right when it contradicts itself?
3) Uh... to be honest, I think you've already got plenty enough there to explain. Good luck, you'll need it
1. is pretty simple to my memory so I'll answer for The Bringer with what I remember from asking a Catholic Bishop that exact question. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving but He gave us the choice. It all comes down to free will, you don't have to accept god, or anything else, if god wanted servants or slaves he could make more mindless beasts exactly to his design, but he created children in his own image, and the ability to make up their own minds. Just like a loving parent with a child the parent knows the child has to be free to make their own mistakes and learn and grow.
Edit: and doesn't Carlin always do everything better?
If god is omnipotent, then god is omniscient, if god is omniscient, then free will doesn't exist since we cannot do anything other than what god knows we will do.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
The Bringer wrote:Really people, Leviticus was part of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was overthrown when the New Covenant was made and the law was written on our hearts, with Christ as our high priest and our perfect sacrifice. So to answer you p_gray99, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and I no longer need to sacrifice animals continually as atonement for my sins. For all you others, the law was written on our hearts, voiding the law of Leviticus.
For all those that realize that this voids what Leviticus says about homosexuality (assuming that is what the Greek refers to), read Romans 1:26-27. The fact is Leviticus is not the only book of the Bible that addresses homosexuality.
Mattrym, what do you have to say about the Bible discriminating against homosexuals now? I would rather like to stay on that topic.
D*mn, he knows what he's talking about! Oh well, this calls for some proper conversion time.
Ok, time for a few old favourites. How do you deal with the following:
1) The problem of evil. God is all-powerful, so can stop evil, all-knowing so knows evil exists, and is all-loving so wants to stop evil. So why does evil still exist?
2) Contradictions. Don't say there aren't any, there are. If you can say that none of these are contradictions, well done. But until then, how can all the bible be right when it contradicts itself?
3) Uh... to be honest, I think you've already got plenty enough there to explain. Good luck, you'll need it
1. is pretty simple to my memory so I'll answer for The Bringer with what I remember from asking a Catholic Bishop that exact question. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving but He gave us the choice. It all comes down to free will, you don't have to accept god, or anything else, if god wanted servants or slaves he could make more mindless beasts exactly to his design, but he created children in his own image, and the ability to make up their own minds. Just like a loving parent with a child the parent knows the child has to be free to make their own mistakes and learn and grow.
Edit: and doesn't Carlin always do everything better?
But between genesis and the tower of bable that pretty much proves that god is none of those things.
Eat one apple, banished from the garden forever. one snake tricks eve, all snakes lose their legs forever. humans build a tower to the sky, god freaks out and doesn't want them to know he doesn't really live in this reality, so he curses everyone with different languages. not very forgiving or loving IMO. Both stories of genesis really show how unknowing and powerless god really is. Good companion for Adam? takes two tries to get it right.
walker90234 wrote:@deathholydeath: technically if god exists outside of space and time that doesn't matter all that much.
Care to clarify that some?
God doesn't subscribe to a linear view of time. God is in all places and all things, and all TIMES at once. It's not that he knows what choice you're going to make, it's that you've already made your choice.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
walker90234 wrote:In which case it's not morals, its snobbery. Not something we should really be worshiping.
Therefore, the Christians (not the general christians, I'm not being prejudice, I just mean the bigoted ones) really have two options:
1) forget the gay hate. Accept that those particular commandments are the result of the authors decision - the HUMAN who wrote leviticus, while he followed many of God's commandments in doing so, also inserted some of his own laws, which weren't those of God.
2) accept that morality is built on whim, snobbery and narcissism, and therefore we should reject God.
I wonder which one they'll pick...
3) Understand that the regulations against homosexual behaviour are not motivated by 'gay hate' and that determination of absolute morality is the rightful province of a just God.
This is achieved by understanding the spirit in which Gods laws are contained, a spirit of both judgement and mercy, with compassion at its core.
Anyone making application of what God says any other way is missing the point.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Love thy neighbor, but stop trying to tell them what to do if he isn't hurting anyone. Especially if it's with another consenting adult.
God is most often represented as a parent. And like most parents' I'll bet God hates tattle-tales and people who are nosy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/16 20:55:45
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0
) sex generally lead to kids. Without being bound by marital law, a parent could easily abandon their partner and children, as such leaden to harm) and as such, the only reason behind it is divine command.
