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Ok. So let me drop this perspective for you guys. I played Militarum Tempestus with IG allies in the ITC in 7th ed. I always ran a big blob of conscripts with a commissar in my list for one reason: people think they are a massive threat. They are not a threat, they are a wall. Apply the same tactics you would to a death star and ignore them. A guard player knows he cant depend on them to be a powerhouse and kill all the enemy units in the game and will take other stuff. The main reason they have bumped up in power is because they now have a armor save and there is no platoon tax. The tactics for them have not changed, I think the biggest problem is that people are not used to the new meta of 8th edition.

As for the scion command squads: They have the same tactics they did in 7th and are the polar opposite of conscripts. I would drop them in with 4 plasma guns and order them with preferred enemy. They would delete a enemy unit every turn of shooting. The reason they are so powerful now is that they are cheaper and can come in turn 1. Want them to disappear? Point some small arms fire at them.

What this all comes down to is the Meta shift for 8th. Troops are king in 8th edition and hoard armies work now. Yes, I do think plasma is under costed ATM, but the real key is you need to build different lists and have different tactics from 7th. 8th is not about Grav or melta spam, it is not about monster or tank spam, It is about dealing with troops and a few powerful heavy units.

What sticks in people's craw a bit is that conscripts are incredibly effective at countering very powerful units.

Magnus soars overhead, "I SHALL CRUSH YOUR PUNY TANKS WITH MY PSYCHIC MIGH---- Oooh look conscripts, 50 of them! Smite! Haha! Die little men! Die!"

*Magnus kills 8 conscripts*
*Commissar shoots a conscript in the head for good measure*
*Magnus is shot from the sky*

"Noooo little men, if only you were space marines, you would be so much easier to kiiiiiillllllllllllllll" *crash*

And thus the Daemon-Primarch was slain by a mishmash of tanks and poorly equipped 13 year old boys. Notches on the lasgun tonight for sure!

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

It's very important that you're playing as the IG for that test, not against them, because I don't want you to curb-stomp them and walk away going "Yep, they're perfect now!" You've got to feel the effects first-hand.

Yeah, this is a pretty good point. If you don't actually play a few test games both before and after making point/rule changes, then you don't have anywhere near sufficient data to try to complain to GW about it. Mathhammer means absolutely nothing compared to actual playtesting.

100% agree with this. I had mathammered a unit to death to figure out it's capabilities (Wraithguard), but just tried to use them in a battle earlier, and the logistics of using them makes them a very different unit that I thought.

Still hilarious for psychological warfare though xD

Well there just comes a point where the model you hit isn't going to get any more dead, that's just the price of overkill. Magnus' mortal wounds will kill an equal amount of 1-wound models no matter what you target with them, so of course targeting cheaper models is less efficient.

Sure, a volcano cannon kills conscripts and marines pretty much equally (both are wounded on 2+ with no save) and the conscripts' low price makes them more efficient at absorbing volcano cannons because the 1-6 guys you hit with it aren't going to get any more dead.

But that's just why I shouldn't be firing a volcano cannon at conscripts. Or space marines, or infantry in general if there are any more appropriate targets available. It's not that the conscripts are somehow amazingly resilient to volcano cannons, it reduces any conscript it hits into its constituent quarks (and leptons). But it is a highly focused anti-Titan weapon with a low rate of fire, it can't hit very many of them. You need to sweep them up with low-strength, high fire rate weapons instead. Hit them just hard enough to kill them, they won't get any more dead than that, and hit lots of them.

After all, that's why we give modern infantry .22 caliber rifles (5.56mm NATO is .223 caliber, just with a larger powder charge than you'd get in a varmint rifle) instead of arming everyone with .308. Heck, technically if we were really determined we could probably develop a .50BMG battle rifle with about a 5-10 round magazine that is... reasonably portable, if a bit hard on the shoulder.

But we don't do that, because the .223 is just enough to kill someone, and we stop there because they're not going to get any more dead. So instead of going bigger to kill them harder, we stick with the tiny .223 so we can carry lots of them and fire them at over 900RPM.

That using anti-tank weapons to kill infantry who have flashlights and T-shirts is inefficient is a feature, not a bug.

There is also the whole conscripts get 3 attacks each thing. And get orders. And ignore morale. And provide amazing screens and objective coverage to some of the most devastating shooting in the game.

 ross-128 wrote:

That using anti-tank weapons to kill infantry who have flashlights and T-shirts is inefficient is a feature, not a bug.

That's all well and good, but some armies just aren't that good at dealing with hordes even when they tailor for it, never mind in a TAC list that dedicates 1/3 to 1/2 it's points for harder targets than conscripts.

Though, speaking of dealing, Eldar lists can outrun and jump over conscript blobs, so there are 3rd options.

 997Turbo wrote:
There is also the whole conscripts get 3 attacks each thing. And get orders. And ignore morale. And provide amazing screens and objective coverage to some of the most devastating shooting in the game.

There's no scenario where conscripts get 3 attacks per model. They get 1 attack standard. Fix Bayonets can give them a second fight phase, so effectively 2 attacks. A priest can give them +1 attack, also 2 attacks. If you stack both together you can get 4 (two fight phases at two attacks each), but then you've spent an extra 65 points supporting them.

Also, Fix Bayonets cannot be used in the turn that they charge or are charged, because you can only give orders in the shooting phase. This means that Fix Bayonets can never be used on a full-strength blob, they will always have to spend one round in combat taking casualties before they can use it.

They're also not entirely immune to morale: they still lose 1 model, and they need a 31 point commissar to do that. If for some reason you have all three supporting models, you've spent 246 points on the conscript blob. That's about as expensive as a Land Raider.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Which equivalent armies are you talking about? Orks and Tyranids (the only other real horde armies) are generally tougher with a melee focus. Base morale was actually reduced for 8th down to 6. Guard infantry were 1ppm more expensive last edition and for the majority of 7th IG wallowed at the bottom of the power curve. SM armies have seen cost reductions pretty much every edition while retaining their unique morale mechanics.

>Generally tougher

You see, that's not even vaguely true. Guard is more resilient than both, because they are so cheap.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
They also screwed up the tanks section, because the tank guns are crap for their points. Pask is good, possibly too good, but that's about where it ends.

I'm missing the OP in basic Infantry Squads, and basic Scions squads, though.

With regards to the infantry costs, though, our Conscripts and guardsmen are also the only basic infantry generally incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful with their own weapons. The point of strength that fleshborers and devourers have, and the assault power that Boyz have, is considerable. Conscripts have toughness, instead of firepower. We pay less because our guys don't have as much offensive ability, which makes sense because resiliency is an easily bypassed trait and a passive trait, while firepower is a trait that's almost never situational.

First off, again not true. Fleshborers can't fire outside 12" and only get a single shot. A lasgun will always out damage them against any target. Orks have to close to melee. Guard infantry doesn't actually struggle to put out damage compared to other horde armies, particularly when you consider the issues with large blobs getting in rapid fire range is still not as problematic as getting large blobs of melee units all in range for combat.

If you think your basic infantry squads can't accomplish anything with their own weapons, you are utterly insane. You lose a point of strength and ballistic skill for normal squads compared to a marine. You get three times as many bodies for the same price. I don't know how you can possibly think you have bad infantry, unless you literally can't grasp what a hug advnatage your sheer quantity gives you offensively and defensively.

SilverAlien wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Which equivalent armies are you talking about? Orks and Tyranids (the only other real horde armies) are generally tougher with a melee focus. Base morale was actually reduced for 8th down to 6. Guard infantry were 1ppm more expensive last edition and for the majority of 7th IG wallowed at the bottom of the power curve. SM armies have seen cost reductions pretty much every edition while retaining their unique morale mechanics.

>Generally tougher

You see, that's not even vaguely true. Guard is more resilient than both, because they are so cheap.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
They also screwed up the tanks section, because the tank guns are crap for their points. Pask is good, possibly too good, but that's about where it ends.

I'm missing the OP in basic Infantry Squads, and basic Scions squads, though.

With regards to the infantry costs, though, our Conscripts and guardsmen are also the only basic infantry generally incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful with their own weapons. The point of strength that fleshborers and devourers have, and the assault power that Boyz have, is considerable. Conscripts have toughness, instead of firepower. We pay less because our guys don't have as much offensive ability, which makes sense because resiliency is an easily bypassed trait and a passive trait, while firepower is a trait that's almost never situational.

First off, again not true. Fleshborers can't fire outside 12" and only get a single shot. A lasgun will always out damage them against any target. Orks have to close to melee. Guard infantry doesn't actually struggle to put out damage compared to other horde armies, particularly when you consider the issues with large blobs getting in rapid fire range is still not as problematic as getting large blobs of melee units all in range for combat.

If you think your basic infantry squads can't accomplish anything with their own weapons, you are utterly insane. You lose a point of strength and ballistic skill for normal squads compared to a marine. You get three times as many bodies for the same price. I don't know how you can possibly think you have bad infantry, unless you literally can't grasp what a hug advnatage your sheer quantity gives you offensively and defensively.

Closing to melee isn't hard.

We don't have bad infantry, because it's cheap. Our infantry is great, because it's cheap. But model-per-model, it's also the fourth weakest single model, after Grots and Horrors and Termigaunts.
2 Conscripts = 1 Ork, yes?

1 Ork vs. Marine, unsupported: 4 attacks, 3 hits,1.5 wounds, .5 damage.
2 Conscripts vs. Marines, supported by orders: 8 shots, 3 hits, 1 wound, 0.3 damage.

1 Marines vs. Orks: 2 shots, 1.3 hits, .6 wounds, .5 damage
1 Marine vs. Conscripts: 2 shots, 1.3 hits, .9 wounds, .6 damage.

As you can see, a fully supported equal points of conscripts deal about half the damage of unsupported Orks, and the two are approximately equal in resilience thanks to the Orks improved T. 2 Conscripts are equal in price to 1 Ork. It's worth mention that the effective move-assault range [8-23", avg 15.5"] of the Orks is only an inch or two shorter than the move-rapid fire range [18"] of the conscripts.

WRT 'Gaunts, I think they cost 4 points because they wound tanks on a 5+, instead of a 6+. A point for flexibility, as it were.


Our conscripts, fully supported, can kill 4 Marines a turn, 8 if our opponent is an idiot. While this is only marginally worse than a fully-kitted Leman Russ Tank, which runs the same price, that's more a measure of why the Leman Russ Battle Tank is bad, because our other, good, heavy instruments, like Wyverns, Punishers, Manticores, and Mortars, can out-do that fairly drastically at price.

Conscripts are good because one squad can form a big wall across the field, and they're more efficient than guardsmen because they come in big 50-man blobs [guardsmen used to, but don't anymore], allowing us to save on buying CC's for our long screen of guys. And if they're in a 72" long line, then they definitely aren't going to be getting half of their guns into range, much less any more than a handful of them into rapid-fire range.

Can't any flyer or sniper kill a commissar in a turn?

Snipers just shoot him enough, Flyer flies past the line of conscripts so the commissar is the closest model and with no fire arks just shoots him.

from there it's just down to your anti horde.

If its that bad bring an assassin or similar character for it?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Closing to melee isn't hard.

We don't have bad infantry, because it's cheap. Our infantry is great, because it's cheap. But model-per-model, it's also the fourth weakest single model, after Grots and Horrors and Termigaunts.
2 Conscripts = 1 Ork, yes?

1 Ork vs. Marine, unsupported: 4 attacks, 3 hits,1.5 wounds, .5 damage.
2 Conscripts vs. Marines, supported by orders: 8 shots, 3 hits, 1 wound, 0.3 damage.

1 Marines vs. Orks: 2 shots, 1.3 hits, .6 wounds, .5 damage
1 Marine vs. Conscripts: 2 shots, 1.3 hits, .9 wounds, .6 damage.

As you can see, a fully supported equal points of conscripts deal about half the damage of unsupported Orks, and the two are approximately equal in resilience thanks to the Orks improved T. 2 Conscripts are equal in price to 1 Ork. It's worth mention that the effective move-assault range [8-23", avg 15.5"] of the Orks is only an inch or two shorter than the move-rapid fire range [18"] of the conscripts.

Okay let's break this down.

First off, surely that unit of conscripts will be getting a round of firing off outside rapid fire range, which for the ork won't be happening. He'll have at least 1 (or more) turns of uselessness beyond what the conscripts will. Ranged damage is simply more reliable, just as it always has been. That's without mentioning the comparatively cheap upgrade that literally doubles the firepower of up to two full units of conscripts.

Resilience is a bit of a joke, are you forgetting the conscripts have twice as many wounds as the ork? And don't have to deal with overwatch like the ork will?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
WRT 'Gaunts, I think they cost 4 points because they wound tanks on a 5+, instead of a 6+. A point for flexibility, as it were.

Except you've still got twice as many shots if the fleshborer can hit, negating even that marginal advantage. Gaunts are either a 3 point unit or conscripts are 4 and infantry is 5. The difference in firepower, armor, range, all adds up. Your hoards are too cheap, it's not hard to see.

Taffy17 wrote:
Can't any flyer or sniper kill a commissar in a turn?

Snipers just shoot him enough, Flyer flies past the line of conscripts so the commissar is the closest model and with no fire arks just shoots him.

from there it's just down to your anti horde.

If its that bad bring an assassin or similar character for it?

Flyers don't work for the same reason deepstrike doesn't work, relies on your opponent not knowing how to properly secure characters.

The entire chaos faction doesn't possess a single sniper as well.

Taffy17 wrote:
Can't any flyer or sniper kill a commissar in a turn?

Snipers just shoot him enough, Flyer flies past the line of conscripts so the commissar is the closest model and with no fire arks just shoots him.

from there it's just down to your anti horde.

If its that bad bring an assassin or similar character for it?

You can keep the commissar in the middle, but he won't be able to influence other units very easily. Of course snipers are still an issue. Even a moderate sniper meta keeps conscripts being the all-comers list people think it is.

The CSM smite spell can also snipe them out, albeit with much more difficulty.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Can't any flyer or sniper kill a commissar in a turn?

Snipers just shoot him enough, Flyer flies past the line of conscripts so the commissar is the closest model and with no fire arks just shoots him.

from there it's just down to your anti horde.

If its that bad bring an assassin or similar character for it?

You can keep the commissar in the middle, but he won't be able to influence other units very easily. Of course snipers are still an issue. Even a moderate sniper meta keeps conscripts being the all-comers list people think it is.

The CSM smite spell can also snipe them out, albeit with much more difficulty.

Exactly, I think there's pros and cons, if they play defensively and bubble wraps the commissar then surely that means less of their guys are in a position to shoot you cause they're behind the commissar protecting his rear. Also it means the commissar may struggle to reach other squads with his aura.

If you don't bubble wrap him and play more offensively and push all your guys to the front then he's exposed to deepstrike and flyers getting behind him.

But at the end of the day an exitus round to the head is an exitus round to the head.

 Selym wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

That using anti-tank weapons to kill infantry who have flashlights and T-shirts is inefficient is a feature, not a bug.

That's all well and good, but some armies just aren't that good at dealing with hordes even when they tailor for it, never mind in a TAC list that dedicates 1/3 to 1/2 it's points for harder targets than conscripts.

Though, speaking of dealing, Eldar lists can outrun and jump over conscript blobs, so there are 3rd options.

Like who? Which army would have trouble killing conscripts?

Grey Knights?

Deathwatch?

SilverAlien wrote:

Okay let's break this down.

First off, surely that unit of conscripts will be getting a round of firing off outside rapid fire range, which for the ork won't be happening. He'll have at least 1 (or more) turns of uselessness beyond what the conscripts will. Ranged damage is simply more reliable, just as it always has been. That's without mentioning the comparatively cheap upgrade that literally doubles the firepower of up to two full units of conscripts.

Resilience is a bit of a joke, are you forgetting the conscripts have twice as many wounds as the ork? And don't have to deal with overwatch like the ork will?

Except you've still got twice as many shots if the fleshborer can hit, negating even that marginal advantage. Gaunts are either a 3 point unit or conscripts are 4 and infantry is 5. The difference in firepower, armor, range, all adds up. Your hoards are too cheap, it's not hard to see.

Flyers don't work for the same reason deepstrike doesn't work, relies on your opponent not knowing how to properly secure characters.

The entire chaos faction doesn't possess a single sniper as well.

I did account for Orders. As you can see I counted the 2 conscripts as putting out 8 shots, which they can only do under FRF/SRF.

Overwatch is a total laugh, because it's not even a consideration, usually. Like, seriously. First off, with a bit of strategy, you can entirely negate it. Secondly, it's so weak for most units that it might as well not exist.

You're assuming a half-competent IG player against an incompetent Ork or Tyranid player, really here. Because if we are smart enough to know how to keep our commissars out of LoS, you're also smart enough to lead with a Trukk or a Tyrannocyte or such thing to lock Overwatch.

Also, you can Da-Jump the Orks forward, which yields a turn 1 charge, or Hive Commander/Trygon Tunnel/Tyrannocyte the 'gaunts.


And, of course, that's if you're still going "squirrel!" and chasing the little men.

You also don't need to kill all of them. You just have to kill open a route through for your other troops to assault the tanks. If you kill a dozen, that dramatically shortens the amount of line they can protect and you can easily get a unit of 'fexes, or biker nobz, through that gap.

And, of course, if they fall back too far from combat with you, they've also yielded you their natural expansion objective and their forward objective, so you can probably win the game fairly handily too.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

That using anti-tank weapons to kill infantry who have flashlights and T-shirts is inefficient is a feature, not a bug.

That's all well and good, but some armies just aren't that good at dealing with hordes even when they tailor for it, never mind in a TAC list that dedicates 1/3 to 1/2 it's points for harder targets than conscripts.

Though, speaking of dealing, Eldar lists can outrun and jump over conscript blobs, so there are 3rd options.

Like who? Which army would have trouble killing conscripts?

Harlequins.

SilverAlien wrote:


Okay let's break this down.

First off, surely that unit of conscripts will be getting a round of firing off outside rapid fire range, which for the ork won't be happening. He'll have at least 1 (or more) turns of uselessness beyond what the conscripts will. Ranged damage is simply more reliable, just as it always has been. That's without mentioning the comparatively cheap upgrade that literally doubles the firepower of up to two full units of conscripts.

Resilience is a bit of a joke, are you forgetting the conscripts have twice as many wounds as the ork? And don't have to deal with overwatch like the ork will?

20 orks in a naked battlewagon could do reasonably well. Gorkanauts, too.

Thing is that if I apply more points to force this unit out I can take them off the table and still have my units on. 40 orks in 2 battle wagons - one wagon to soak. That kills 47 conscripts assuming I get them all into combat. So, yes, I have a crippled a battlewagon, but there's still a ton of Orks on the table and your unit is easily gone.

This concept that only as many points will focus on hurting a unit as that unit is worth is nonsense. Now, I can't ever imagine seeing an ork list like that.

My Thousand Sons worry about this list more than orks do, but i'll be content to stay at 24", let them walk in enough to do their 50 shots (if they terrain even favors that) and kill one guy while I kill 5. Their tanks will worry about Magnus while a heldrake harasses them. And then i'll drop 10 scarabs in when I need to supported by prescience and magnus and remove 26 of them in one go.

Are conscripts overpowered? I don't know, I haven't played any 8th yet, I haven't had the chance.
Is this thread the greatest saltgasm in dakkadakka history?
No, but it's up there.

Have you seen the locked threads about the 3 ways to play?
Now those were salty.

I'll go look. I'm honestly surprised this one hasn't been locked.

So am I. I honestly don't think that Conscripts are overpowered this edition, strong? Maybe. But overpowered? God no. I attended an 8th edition tourney last week where one of the attendees brought a big old unit of Conscripts plus Commissars. His Conscripts got curb stomped in nearly every single game, and he came in dead last.

Now I know that personal experience and the situations at my FLGS don't matter too much. But all the hoopla about Conscripts being OP is hilarious, and not worthwhile.

Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

One thing I will say is that it is entirely possible for conscripts to be balanced or even underpowered, if it's clear that horde style armies don't work well this edition. But imperial guard can do that better than any other army and when one is heads and tails above the rest, we tend to assume the one is the issue. It's possible that guard could be the only balanced horde army instead.

Daedalus81 wrote:
20 orks in a naked battlewagon could do reasonably well. Gorkanauts, too.

Thing is that if I apply more points to force this unit out I can take them off the table and still have my units on. 40 orks in 2 battle wagons - one wagon to soak. That kills 47 conscripts assuming I get them all into combat. So, yes, I have a crippled a battlewagon, but there's still a ton of Orks on the table and your unit is easily gone.

This concept that only as many points will focus on hurting a unit as that unit is worth is nonsense. Now, I can't ever imagine seeing an ork list like that.

My Thousand Sons worry about this list more than orks do, but i'll be content to stay at 24", let them walk in enough to do their 50 shots (if they terrain even favors that) and kill one guy while I kill 5. Their tanks will worry about Magnus while a heldrake harasses them. And then i'll drop 10 scarabs in when I need to supported by prescience and magnus and remove 26 of them in one go.

Transports jack up the price a great deal, and when the other unit doesn't. I'm also going to ignore the inane theory craft showing one expensive unit can kill a cheap one? Yes that's how the game is balanced idk what you think that proves.

 997Turbo wrote:
There is also the whole conscripts get 3 attacks each thing. And get orders. And ignore morale. And provide amazing screens and objective coverage to some of the most devastating shooting in the game.

Conscripts cannot take a vox caster. So if the commander is close enough to give them orders, he's close enough to get sniped.

You need to thank your IG opponent when he does that, because he's feeding you a commander.

The main issue with Conscripts is they take a ton of effort to kill for the cost. This is mostly down to the Commissar's ability scaling too well with unit size to the point where 50-man units are the most effective use.

I liked the suggested fix where Commissars give a flat bonus instead of just scaling it to a max of 1. Conscripts, of all units, should not have easy access to morale immunity at the price point they exist at. Reducing how efficient they are when bolstered by a Commissar would basically fix them right up. Counterplay for Conscript hordes should be morale since it is the most effective rule against hordes in this edition. Make Conscripts vulnerable to it and they retain being a nice cheap bubble-wrap unit without being tougher than just about any other unit in the game based on equivalent point. That's an easy fix to bring them in line.

@Inquisitor Lord Katherine

Don't Harlequins have the Death Jester to bust the Commissar?

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

 Ronin_eX wrote:
The main issue with Conscripts is they take a ton of effort to kill for the cost. This is mostly down to the Commissar's ability scaling too well with unit size to the point where 50-man units are the most effective use.

I liked the suggested fix where Commissars give a flat bonus instead of just scaling it to a max of 1. Conscripts, of all units, should not have easy access to morale immunity at the price point they exist at. Reducing how efficient they are when bolstered by a Commissar would basically fix them right up. Counterplay for Conscript hordes should be morale since it is the most effective rule against hordes in this edition. Make Conscripts vulnerable to it and they retain being a nice cheap bubble-wrap unit without being tougher than just about any other unit in the game based on equivalent point. That's an easy fix to bring them in line.

I'd agree with this, it's a bit silly how resistant they are. The problem is, that sort of change won't happen till a codex comes out, whereas point changes might happen sooner.

Here is the thing, the nay Sayers want the conscript unit to "flee in droves" due to morale. But if they literally ran away in masses, coupled with how easy they are to kill, please tell me where the use in taking them comes from? If there was a way to have A FEW only run, more than one less than "many" it would potentially be a middle ground. However, if you make them flee in droves then the unit as a whole becomes useless at all and you KILL a unit in the codex, which is NOT what anyone should want. The unit should be playable, but fair