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Do you find unpainted minis in matches acceptable?
Yes its acceptable, if people cant be bothered painting then who cares
No its unacceptable they are lazy and are annoying
I prefer people have fully painted minis, but dont really care.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Its weird, personally I only use painted models, as this is a way to control the grey horde at home and keep it manageable, will play against anyone who is fun to play against regardless.

its annoying to be at a paid event, with paint rules that are then not enforced, if not going to enforce don't bother with them.

its also only ever been 40k & WHFB where this has ever been an issue, I have yet to attend an event for a historical game that needed to put paint guides in place, and have only ever seen one historical army at an event not fully painted (bod from my club who got some royal stick over it, and has since painted a couple of them...)

Seems the usual rule of civilised behaviour is in effect, hold yourself to a higher standard than which you hold against others
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

Yeah its because there money grubbers, they want people who will just buy the models and not paint them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This encourges people who dont want to paint them to start getting in to 40k


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"oh you can use greys in this??, awsome im in"


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Sort of like how bringing the masses in to computer games created this micro transaction gaming generation where the games are crapper and crapper


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GOTTA MAKE ALL THE MONEY BEFORE THE WORLD WAR 3!!!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 20:07:35


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Stormatious wrote:
Look if you like grey models its like i said, why are you not just using toilet rolls, why even spend all the money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
for the detailed minis


Because they like detailed mini's.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

You cant see detail with grey minis....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice detail

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 20:11:10


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I think some people are getting way too wound up over how other people play their hobby. Especially since if you don't want to play the grey then just be polite and say "ahh no thanks" in person. Baring in mind that half of the thread is talking not about actual games, but theoretical ones and theoretical gamers.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Stormatious wrote:
You cant see detail with grey minis....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice detail


You might not be able to see detail from arm's length, but I can, at least.

.

Why are you trying so hard to find some "gotcha"about what people like and don't like? These things don't have anything to do with each other. People that like grey mini's might not like gray houses and that's really all there is to it.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

Im speaking the truth for the silent majority
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






BlackSwanDelta wrote:

I basically went over all of this earlier.

Offering help isn't harassment. Repeated, unreciprocated offers of "help" and/or calling people lazy, disrespectful, etc because they don't prioritize their free time the same as you, is harassment.

Again, where are you getting any indication of that type of behavior from anything that has been said in this thread? I could say that someone who doesn't paint their armies and constantly begs, nags and insists that an opponent who prefers to play only with painted miniatures must take on their bare plastic army, is also guilty of harassment. But that's a strawman argument about a convoluted fringe case that isn't likely to happen, and a poor attempt at impugning everyone that disagrees with me in this thread.

Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel. Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.

Even generalizing people who don't paint their armies as lazy is not harassment in this context as long as it's not directed at anyone in particular.

If your definition of harassment is the expression of an opinion that anyone might find offensive or disagreeable, regardless of the context or setting, then you are guilty of harassment for insisting that openly disagreeing with you is harassment.

Harassment is typically considered to have a repetitive, prolonged component. Someone who constantly and repeatedly shows up to the FLGS and pressures everyone with unpainted miniatures to take painting lessons from them would be guilty of a type of harassment, but that is so far away from anything being advocated in this thread that it's kind of a bizarre thing to be fixated on in the context of this discussion.

Harassment is a type of behavior with at least a loose threshold of definition. If announcing your displeasure with playing against unpainted armies constitutes harassment merely because it carries indirect implications about the motivation or character of those who do not paint their miniatures, then the threshold is so low that it basically precludes any kind of meaningful interaction or discussion between two people who don't think and value exactly the same things. It renders harassment meaningless as a classification of behavior, because the only way to avoid engaging in harassment would be to read someone's mind so you'd know what they might find offensive before you say it, or simply not interact with another person at all because you can't know what they may find offensive and therefore can't possibly be sure you're not harassing them.

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel. Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.

I don't know maybe because the painter crowed describe themself as adults, that play the game the right way and engage in the full spectrum of the hobby, which is also the only good way to enjoy it, everything else is inferior. While people who don't want to paint their models are lazy children who don't know better, which if they want to be treated as adults should pick up a paint brush and paint.


Someone who constantly and repeatedly shows up to the FLGS and pressures everyone with unpainted miniatures to take painting lessons from them would be guilty of a type of harassment, but that is so far away from anything being advocated in this thread that it's kind of a bizarre thing to be fixated on in the context of this discussion

Wait wait wait. This is only true if we assume that the normal state of playing is to have a painted army. only then can someone with a unpainted army, be forcing anyone to do something. But painting is not part of the game. It is not even part of the hobby, because someone may like to read the w40k books and play games, and never paint a model in their life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 20:27:39


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Stormatious wrote:
Im speaking the truth for the silent majority


How very brave of you
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Karol wrote:

Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel. Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.

I don't know maybe because the painter crowed describe themself as adults, that play the game the right way and engage in the full spectrum of the hobby, which is also the only good way to enjoy it, everything else is inferior. While people who don't want to paint their models are lazy children who don't know better, which if they want to be treated as adults should pick up a paint brush and paint.

Again, this is a discussion forum, and the topic of this thread is whether or not you prefer to play against painted armies. People engaging in discussion in this context are not "harassing" anyone, even if by implication or generalization they imply that their view of the hobby is the "best" or "correct" one. Maybe you don't like it when people say that, and maybe they're incorrect. However, stating an incorrect opinion with which you do not agree does not meet the threshold of harassment. There are plenty of examples of people questioning the character and life choices of someone who only wants to play against painted armies and won't play a game against someone with an unpainted army. Is that harassment? Simply holding different opinions, or stating them openly in the context of a discussion, can't be harassment. Do you not realize that otherwise the explicit function of a discussion forum such as Dakka Dakka would be to facilitate harassment?




Someone who constantly and repeatedly shows up to the FLGS and pressures everyone with unpainted miniatures to take painting lessons from them would be guilty of a type of harassment, but that is so far away from anything being advocated in this thread that it's kind of a bizarre thing to be fixated on in the context of this discussion

Wait wait wait. This is only true if we assume that the normal state of playing is to have a painted army. only then can someone with a unpainted army, be forcing anyone to do something. But painting is not part of the game. It is not even part of the hobby, because someone may like to read the w40k books and play games, and never paint a model in their life.

Now you're telling people that they can't even think, feel or believe something different from you internally. Someone may hold the opinion that playing with painted miniatures is the default state of the game. You may believe that painting is not a part of the game at all. Neither opinion is objectively correct; they're both opinions. They're preferences. You are, in effect, saying that someone who places the highest value on playing with painted miniatures and prefers not to play against unpainted armies is "wrong" because other people have different preferences. Who decides whose values and preferences take precedence, and who must cede their preferences to those of someone else?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 20:49:04


 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Playing with painted miniatures is certainly how GW presents the hobby, so I think it is fair to say that that is how it is 'intended' to be played. Whether one cares about GW's intent is another matter.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





 Thadin wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
I look down upon it, but it's like every opponent in my area so feth it I just gotta hold that


Yep... I wish I had the option to at least strongly suggest that long-time members of the hobby make an effort in painting their armies instead of starting yet another new one... But it's a very small group of people that are all older than me. So I must silently judge, and hope that new-comers to the group have the motivation to put a bit of colour on their space marines/sigmarines.

I feel you. I been a player for longer than a few of them, but I recognise that my desire for a painted force isn't mirrored by them, and nothing I can say will change that, so I'll just let it go. It won't stop me from looking down upon an army. There's no way I can view that on the same level as a fully painted army. If there was a selection of guys with painted armies that would be the ones I played against the most, but there's not there's like 1 left after the other guy moved town (:() so I just gotta make do.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






So OP... I think you have an answer. The majority would rather you paint your minis but not really care, and maybe 1 in 10 will be visibly annoyed or refuse to play you.

Is this thread done now?
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





 Horst wrote:
So OP... I think you have an answer. The majority would rather you paint your minis but not really care, and maybe 1 in 10 will be visibly annoyed or refuse to play you.

Is this thread done now?


Nope it's still a point of discussion. You don't have to click on it again though if you've said all you have to?


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 Stormatious wrote:
Im speaking the truth for the silent majority

I hate when people say this. You speak for nobody other than yourself.



BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
You cant see detail with grey minis....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice detail


You might not be able to see detail from arm's length, but I can, at least.

.

Why are you trying so hard to find some "gotcha"about what people like and don't like? These things don't have anything to do with each other. People that like grey mini's might not like gray houses and that's really all there is to it.


I feel like yours is the "gotcha". There's zero chance you can see detail at the same level on grey plastic as you can with a well painted mini. The colors give depth and added visibility. This is how the human eye works. You're either some freak case, or you're ignoring his point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 21:35:15


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

 Horst wrote:
So OP... I think you have an answer. The majority would rather you paint your minis but not really care, and maybe 1 in 10 will be visibly annoyed or refuse to play you.

Is this thread done now?



No because theres many aspects to this discussion that are still being debated


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Like is grey enough detail.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 21:45:36


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I've read most of this thread. It's not a debate. It's people with absolutely disparate viewpoints that are not going to come to any sort of middle ground. If you wanna keep arguing have at it, but it's not gonna achieve anything.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

Middle ground or not atleast people can see what people think and why.


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Is it not the true spirit of miniture wargaming to have only fully painted minis departed to the battlefield. Lets re enforce this important pioint of what is miniture wargaming is and is about, the more who make this clear or express there views the better. For all man kind. And how do the minitures feel? do you think they like being nothingness?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 22:06:26


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Luciferian wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:

I basically went over all of this earlier.

Offering help isn't harassment. Repeated, unreciprocated offers of "help" and/or calling people lazy, disrespectful, etc because they don't prioritize their free time the same as you, is harassment.


Again, where are you getting any indication of that type of behavior from anything that has been said in this thread?


I listed about half a dozen common sentiments in this thread that I've commonly encountered in the post I linked. I'm not going through all 10 pages of this train wreck of a thread to gather each individual link. If it's your opinion that those things were not said, then, sorry but "oh well". I also cannot reference of the totality of my experiences that formed this opinion in my time in stores, events, and online forums

I could say that someone who doesn't paint their armies and constantly begs, nags and insists that an opponent who prefers to play only with painted miniatures must take on their bare plastic army, is also guilty of harassment.


You could say that and you'd be absolutely 100% correct. I've made this point in both of my larger posts in this thread that this kind of behavior is present on both "sides" of the discussion.


But that's a strawman argument about a convoluted fringe case that isn't likely to happen, and a poor attempt at impugning everyone that disagrees with me in this thread.


It not only happens, it happens in at least a significant measure in my experience and one of my points was the difficulty in recognizing this behavior since it's fairly ingrained in the culture. Again, I'm sorry that I can't reference the entire totality of all my experiences in stores, events, and online forums, but my opinions were not solely the product of this one singular thread.

Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel.


Correct, I summed this up in the first paragraph in the linked post and restated that point again a couple posts back.


Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.


Correct, not what I was addressing, and I specifically discounted this in my previous posts.

Even generalizing people who don't paint their armies as lazy is not harassment in this context as long as it's not directed at anyone in particular.


Finally, I guess this is where we diverge.

Harassing people by grouping them together is still harassment. Agree to disagree, I guess. Calling groups of people pejoratives and making sweeping generalizations about character absolutely fall under a form of harassment and toxic behavior. If you feel that targeting groups of people isn't as bad as targeting people, I guess we'll never see eye to eye.

If your definition of harassment is the expression of an opinion that anyone might find offensive or disagreeable, regardless of the context or setting, then you are guilty of harassment for insisting that openly disagreeing with you is harassment


I repeatedly, repeatedly addressed this. I cannot make this any more clear that is not at all what I said. Disagreeing in a polite way without calling people names or using character judgements is fine. You don't feel untargeted statements qualify as harassment or poor behavior, then ok. But I disagree and believe using pejoratives and character judgements over toy soldiers is a problem if you are targeting someone by name or by group. Being targeted by group association is still wrong.

Absolutely none of these are required to discuss your opinion that models should be painted and are not useful in any measure of the conversation, targeted or not. You and I disagree here, and so far you and i have remained perfectly civil. People who disagree about paint can do the same. Discuss the idea, not the people.

The rest of your post seems to be a summation, so, I'll leave it here.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

Keep discussion to the topic please


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:

I basically went over all of this earlier.

Offering help isn't harassment. Repeated, unreciprocated offers of "help" and/or calling people lazy, disrespectful, etc because they don't prioritize their free time the same as you, is harassment.


Again, where are you getting any indication of that type of behavior from anything that has been said in this thread?


I listed about half a dozen common sentiments in this thread that I've commonly encountered in the post I linked. I'm not going through all 10 pages of this train wreck of a thread to gather each individual link. If it's your opinion that those things were not said, then, sorry but "oh well". I also cannot reference of the totality of my experiences that formed this opinion in my time in stores, events, and online forums

I could say that someone who doesn't paint their armies and constantly begs, nags and insists that an opponent who prefers to play only with painted miniatures must take on their bare plastic army, is also guilty of harassment.


You could say that and you'd be absolutely 100% correct. I've made this point in both of my larger posts in this thread that this kind of behavior is present on both "sides" of the discussion.


But that's a strawman argument about a convoluted fringe case that isn't likely to happen, and a poor attempt at impugning everyone that disagrees with me in this thread.


It not only happens, it happens in at least a significant measure in my experience and one of my points was the difficulty in recognizing this behavior since it's fairly ingrained in the culture. Again, I'm sorry that I can't reference the entire totality of all my experiences in stores, events, and online forums, but my opinions were not solely the product of this one singular thread.

Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel.


Correct, I summed this up in the first paragraph in the linked post and restated that point again a couple posts back.


Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.


Correct, not what I was addressing, and I specifically discounted this in my previous posts.

Even generalizing people who don't paint their armies as lazy is not harassment in this context as long as it's not directed at anyone in particular.


Finally, I guess this is where we diverge.

Harassing people by grouping them together is still harassment. Agree to disagree, I guess. Calling groups of people pejoratives and making sweeping generalizations about character absolutely fall under a form of harassment and toxic behavior. If you feel that targeting groups of people isn't as bad as targeting people, I guess we'll never see eye to eye.

If your definition of harassment is the expression of an opinion that anyone might find offensive or disagreeable, regardless of the context or setting, then you are guilty of harassment for insisting that openly disagreeing with you is harassment


I repeatedly, repeatedly addressed this. I cannot make this any more clear that is not at all what I said. Disagreeing in a polite way without calling people names or using character judgements is fine. You don't feel untargeted statements qualify as harassment or poor behavior, then ok. But I disagree and believe using pejoratives and character judgements over toy soldiers is a problem if you are targeting someone by name or by group. Being targeted by group association is still wrong.

Absolutely none of these are required to discuss your opinion that models should be painted and are not useful in any measure of the conversation, targeted or not. You and I disagree here, and so far you and i have remained perfectly civil. People who disagree about paint can do the same. Discuss the idea, not the people.

The rest of your post seems to be a summation, so, I'll leave it here.


What an insult to miniture highly detailed minis models to call them "toy soliders"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Go ahead and give your minis to some children then

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 22:24:09


 
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Ohio

In tournaments yes, casual no. That being said, I love it when I'm playing against a fully painted army in a casual game.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

 chimeara wrote:
In tournaments yes, casual no. That being said, I love it when I'm playing against a fully painted army in a casual game.


Yeah so you are in the "prefer" category
   
Made in is
Swift Swooping Hawk




Iceland

Considering how ugly this thread seems to be getting I am going to suggest the mods lock this post.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Stormatious wrote:You cant see detail with grey minis....

Depends on what you're painting it with. Black matte primer is going to give me far less detail than the naked model. Someone putting 5mm of paint on a model is going to obscure all detail. Painting straight from the pot can obscure plenty of detail. In fact, naked models have more detail since nothing is being obscured, short of flags and banners, of course.

So, not entirely true unless you're own vision is already too compromised to tell it with good paint.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 SHUPPET wrote:
 Horst wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
You cant see detail with grey minis....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice detail


You might not be able to see detail from arm's length, but I can, at least.

.

Why are you trying so hard to find some "gotcha"about what people like and don't like? These things don't have anything to do with each other. People that like grey mini's might not like gray houses and that's really all there is to it.


I feel like yours is the "gotcha". There's zero chance you can see detail at the same level on grey plastic as you can with a well painted mini. The colors give depth and added visibility. This is how the human eye works. You're either some freak case, or you're ignoring his point.


No, his point was just bad. He said you can't see detail, to which I could see detail at about arms length. Can you painted mini's detail better? Sure. Do they look better? Sure.

But that has nothing to do with his point that people are wasting their time and money engaging in a hobby to a level that they personally enjoy as if they are having fun wring. Then using a conflated example of something completely unrelated, in this case the color of their house, as if that has any relevance. People can enjoy different things to different standards as they please.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 22:46:33


 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






I’d play anyone as long as they presented themselves as not douchebags, regardless of the quality of their minis. But it is annoying. There is nothing more soul destroying than picking up beautiful models that you invested hundreds of hours into because they were killed by grey unpainted minis. I don’t feel that you’re really invested in your army unless you’ve painted it as best you can.

E - I also hold myself to the same standard, I only play with fully painted and based minis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 22:50:34


 
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I’d play anyone as long as they presented themselves as not douchebags, regardless of the quality of their minis. But it is annoying. There is nothing more soul destroying than picking up beautiful models that you invested hundreds of hours into because they were killed by grey unpainted minis. I don’t feel that you’re really invested in your army unless you’ve painted it as best you can.

E - I also hold myself to the same standard, I only play with fully painted and based minis.


I won't put a model on the table unless it's fully painted either.

On the plus side I get a lot of compliments for having a beautifully looking army that the grey tide / ronald mcdonald wave guys are missing out on, so that's always nice.

Plus, my armies quite often kick some butt at locals, and being that I play with a fully self painted army, a friendly disposition, and a lot of knowledge of the lore and setting, I think it helps discourage anyone thinking to call me "WAAC". Not that anybody ever has ever said that to me, but the amount of people who whine about it online when they lose to a better player well it does make me wonder if its running through the head of some of the saltier seamen I've encountered, however I think it kinda takes the wind out of their sails to even consider doing so when they are sitting behind their grey wall of causalities.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spoiler:
The Newman wrote:



I hate to step into someone else's ongoing argument, but Peregrine does have a point. I did a Skorne army a while back where my process was:

1) Prime to white.
2) Paint robes/cloth orange, skin tan, weapons slate gray, weapon handles black.
3) Brown wash.
4) Seal.

I could finish a 10-man squad in a couple of hours by the time I was done (including doing basing work and actually gluing finished models to bases), and I still wasn't particularly fast.

I'd wager that if I picked a simpler scheme that would work with a single wash and skipped squad/chapter markings I could churn out a 5-man tac squad every 45 minutes or so once they were assembled and primered in my base color. I'd lose my mind trying to stay focused that long, but I'd finish my current 2000 point marine list in under 10 hours at that pace.


I want to point out that's a squad in a few hours, not an army in a few hours, but the main goal was to have him objectively defend a subjective point. Are poorly painted armies better than unpainted ones? We have 10 pages an no consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Crimson wrote:
Let's not forget that looking at the poll results overwhelming majority prefers playing against painted armies. It is just that when this preference is expressed in a manner that can be interpreted as "I'd prefer if you painted your army" it triggers a "You can't tell me what to do, you're not my real father!" reaction in some people. This is a very common occurrence in playstyle discussions.


Less "you can't tell me what to do", and more "you're not the final arbiter on what is playable".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
loool, its like if we were playing scoccer, but some chose not to use the ball..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cant really say you're playing soccer


More like: it's like we were playing soccer and one team brought uniforms, and the others were just playing in casual athletic cloths, but were otherwise equipped properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Aelyn wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
loool, its like if we were playing scoccer, but some chose not to use the ball..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cant really say you're playing soccer

And yet, if you play soccer but are just wearing any old T-shirt instead of a club strip, you're still playing soccer.


He gets it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
loool, its like if we were playing scoccer, but some chose not to use the ball..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cant really say you're playing soccer

And yet, if you play soccer but are just wearing any old T-shirt instead of a club strip, you're still playing soccer.


not if you refuse to use ball


Except the ball, pads and cleats in this case are the army itself. The uniform is the paint job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
I didn't say any thing about how it has to look mate, im just saying your not really "doing soccer" because your not using one of the main points of the game, just because you have the ability doesn't mean any thing unless its utilized


Were in the rules of the game does it say "You must paint your army"?

Give me a page quote.

Now, missing an aspect of the hobby by not painting, sure. But the game and the hobby are two different things.


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
No having painted models is a key part, not saying you gotta do it ur self..


How does having unpainted models keep you from reaching mission objectives?
How does it stop you from making die roles?
How does it stop you from deploying against an opponent?


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Spoiler:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
I didn't say any thing about how it has to look mate, im just saying your not really "doing soccer" because your not using one of the main points of the game, just because you have the ability doesn't mean any thing unless its utilized
Just because you consider painting to be a key part of the game doesn't mean everyone does. Paint makes literally no difference to the ability to play the game, laugh about old war stories with friends, think about lists and tactics, or enjoy the background. The only difference it makes is that stuff (generally) looks nicer.


Yes. It. Does.

In this age of multiple detachments and soup lists, being able to specify which models belong to what chapter, regiment, hive fleet or whatever is more important than ever. A sea of grey makes this practically impossible.

See? Just like I said earlier. TFG behaviour and unpainted armies tend to go hand in hand.


No. It. Doesn't.

Just mark the heads with a paint pen.

And that assumes each detachment is from the same army. A guard/SM/Custodies list doen't even need that much done.


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
having grey models is not how you conduct warhammer games in the true sence and spirit of how the world of war gaming is.


Prove it.


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Spoiler:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:

A common preferred style of play is not a justification for disrespect and harassment, that's a straight up bandwagon fallacy.

"I prefer to play painted armies" is not the same as name calling, character judgements, and encouraging real life harassment to repeatedly "encourage" people of a different opinion all of which is also a common occurrence in playstyle discussions; there is plenty of examples in this thread alone.

Which examples? Would you be so kind as to point them out? We all know and love Peregrine for his pomp and bluster, but who aside from him is advocating for name calling, character judgments or real life harassment?

The vast majority of what I'm seeing here is people simply expressing their preference for painted armies, responding to hyperbole about how impossible it is to paint models, and expressing their willingness to offer help and assistance to new painters. The fact that someone saying how willing they are to help someone improve a skill or gain confidence gets interpreted as harassment is kind of interesting on a psychological level.


I basically went over all of this earlier.

Offering help isn't harassment. Repeated, unreciprocated offers of "help" and/or calling people lazy, disrespectful, etc because they don't prioritize their free time the same as you, is harassment.


Amen


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
The true real wargamer has a fully painted army on his miniture terrain table top where he trys to appear as one with the terrain to fully get the feel and keeping to what wargaming really is, which is painting or highly detailed realistic tiny miniture statues and putting them to war in a miniture enviroment.


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One does not disrespect the laws of miniture wargaming


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and disrespect the miniturized battlefield in which to war on


Where does it say you get to define what a true wargamer is? I can say "Because you don't field platoons of perfect in scale sherman and tiger tanks, meticulously hand painted with the historical markings, you're not a wargamer."

Point out that law to me. Where can I read it?

You mean the one made of Styrofoam, text books, and Christmas tree decorations?


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
Look if you like grey models its like i said, why are you not just using toilet rolls, why even spend all the money.


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for the detailed minis


Re-read thread for answer.


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah its because there money grubbers, they want people who will just buy the models and not paint them.


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This encourges people who dont want to paint them to start getting in to 40k


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"oh you can use greys in this??, awsome im in"


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Sort of like how bringing the masses in to computer games created this micro transaction gaming generation where the games are crapper and crapper


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Subjective.
GOTTA MAKE ALL THE MONEY BEFORE THE WORLD WAR 3!!!



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 Stormatious wrote:
You cant see detail with grey minis....


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Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


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Nice detail


Good to know that out of the two of us, and despite my rather thick glasses, I can actually see something from more than two feet away.


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Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
I think some people are getting way too wound up over how other people play their hobby. Especially since if you don't want to play the grey then just be polite and say "ahh no thanks" in person. Baring in mind that half of the thread is talking not about actual games, but theoretical ones and theoretical gamers.


Not playing against unpainted armies is a perfectly good option.


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 Stormatious wrote:
Im speaking the truth for the silent majority


They can speak for themselves. No one made you an advocate.


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Spoiler:
Karol wrote:

Someone who feels disrespected by their opponent's lack of effort, after putting hundreds of hours into painting their miniatures themselves, isn't engaging in harassment. That's how they feel. Expressing that feeling on a discussion forum, in a thread for which the topic of discussion is whether you prefer to play against painted armies, is not harassment. It's the intended function of the platform.

I don't know maybe because the painter crowed describe themself as adults, that play the game the right way and engage in the full spectrum of the hobby, which is also the only good way to enjoy it, everything else is inferior. While people who don't want to paint their models are lazy children who don't know better, which if they want to be treated as adults should pick up a paint brush and paint.


Someone who constantly and repeatedly shows up to the FLGS and pressures everyone with unpainted miniatures to take painting lessons from them would be guilty of a type of harassment, but that is so far away from anything being advocated in this thread that it's kind of a bizarre thing to be fixated on in the context of this discussion

Wait wait wait. This is only true if we assume that the normal state of playing is to have a painted army. only then can someone with a unpainted army, be forcing anyone to do something. But painting is not part of the game. It is not even part of the hobby, because someone may like to read the w40k books and play games, and never paint a model in their life.


We are in full agreement.


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Spoiler:


People engaging in this discussion aren't, but there are some very strong language being used that demeans people who don't, for whatever reason, have fully painted armies.


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Spoiler:
 Crimson wrote:
Playing with painted miniatures is certainly how GW presents the hobby, so I think it is fair to say that that is how it is 'intended' to be played. Whether one cares about GW's intent is another matter.


GW also intends for their rules to be good.


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Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:



BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
You cant see detail with grey minis....


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Well i mean how depressing... why not paint your whole inside and outside of your house grey


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Nice detail


You might not be able to see detail from arm's length, but I can, at least.

.

Why are you trying so hard to find some "gotcha"about what people like and don't like? These things don't have anything to do with each other. People that like grey mini's might not like gray houses and that's really all there is to it.


I feel like yours is the "gotcha". There's zero chance you can see detail at the same level on grey plastic as you can with a well painted mini. The colors give depth and added visibility. This is how the human eye works. You're either some freak case, or you're ignoring his point.


That entirely depends on how they were painted.


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:

Is it not the true spirit of miniture wargaming to have only fully painted minis departed to the battlefield. Lets re enforce this important pioint of what is miniture wargaming is and is about, the more who make this clear or express there views the better. For all man kind. And how do the minitures feel? do you think they like being nothingness?


Prove it.


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Spoiler:
 Stormatious wrote:

What an insult to miniture highly detailed minis models to call them "toy soliders"



But they are toy soldiers. Fine detailed, and in some cases, beautifully hand painted ones, intended for adults, but still toys. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

edited to add spoiler tags.

This message was edited 24 times. Last update was at 2019/01/11 01:24:32


 
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter

 Charistoph wrote:
Stormatious wrote:You cant see detail with grey minis....

Depends on what you're painting it with. Black matte primer is going to give me far less detail than the naked model. Someone putting 5mm of paint on a model is going to obscure all detail. Painting straight from the pot can obscure plenty of detail. In fact, naked models have more detail since nothing is being obscured, short of flags and banners, of course.

So, not entirely true unless you're own vision is already too compromised to tell it with good paint.



You in no way shape or form see detail better with it being its orginal unpainted form, dont know what you are talking about seems like you're stretching unbelievely far to try and justify non painted models.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Space, near Jupiter



In the true sence of the word some one who would be called a wargamer would not not paint there models its simple as that, im not good at using a bunch of technical words to break this down in to a detailed anaylisis of what a wargamer is, if you dont understand what i mean then imo that's not my fault. But it is true to say a TRUE war gamer paints his army... ok

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/11 01:41:42


 
   
 
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