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Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
Absolutely, they were undercosted for their firepower, now with mellee OMG, OP now 12% [ 26 ]
Balanced all around 42% [ 93 ]
Underwhelming 35% [ 79 ]
Garbage, won't field them now. 11% [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 223
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Removed - BrookM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 20:23:35


 
   
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So glad this topic can die now lol.

 
   
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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So glad this topic can die now lol.


We can keep it going for at least another 20 pages. Here...let me help.

Obliterators are very effective against 4 point IS.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So glad this topic can die now lol.


We can keep it going for at least another 20 pages. Here...let me help.

Obliterators are very effective against 4 point IS.


Well right of the bat you're obviously incorrect, as the IS is minimum 10 models, making it 40 points.

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When has being incorrect successfully invalidated an argument on DakkaDakka?
   
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Bharring wrote:
When has being incorrect successfully invalidated an argument on DakkaDakka?


I'm not sure that it actually has in any meaningful way, however as a sloppy "debate tactic" it abounds. (hence the post, apologies if unclear.)

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


none probably. heck I fully expect to have to look at handwritten lists forever now as people try to write in the lower points costs and point out its what is written and they claim to not know about the faq and/or that they don't use the online stuff an adhere to the book as some kind of purists. I really hope GW can clam down on needing these day 1 erattas and just proofread thier books properly.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
It's there, not in magenta for some reason though. Bottom right of the first page.

Likely it's because they considered the CSM book a "new book" rather than just an updated one.


Maybe. There's a ton of magenta in the rest of the same document though.


Probably because it was ready 2 weeks ago and they made edits in between.


Brand new FAQs are never magenta. That is done to indicate changes from a previous version. You won't see much in the first few pages because the first section of the document is for codex 2.0, as listed in the actual document itself. The first edition of the codex already had entries in the errata/FAQ and was included at the end, hence the magenta there.
   
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Daedalus81 wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So glad this topic can die now lol.


We can keep it going for at least another 20 pages. Here...let me help.

Obliterators are very effective against 4 point IS.


I'd actually be interested to see what people think about Obliterators in comparison to Blight Haulers now as choices for a big tough anti-tank unit, since (as now fully confirmed) the Blight Haulers only two points more per model.

Bharring wrote:When has being incorrect successfully invalidated an argument on DakkaDakka?


Maybe the name of this forum should be "40k General Arguments"

 
   
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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


I have no remorse. They were perfectly fine at 65 points per model. Played last night with the new points, and this morning I wrote them all out of my list. 6 models for 700 points is over 1/3 of a 2K list, in an army with terrible troop options. Overcharged plasma makes short work of obliterators, which require you to either place or deepstrike within the range of the very gun that can kill them. T5 4W 5++ means nothing when you have to stick them out in the danger zone.

Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.

Obliterators are not very good now. It's a sad day, but at least there is a viable replacement for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 15:59:35


 
   
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Is it too early to cross our fingers for CA2019 to drop them to 90ish ppm?

...in December

   
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 nurgle5 wrote:

I'd actually be interested to see what people think about Obliterators in comparison to Blight Haulers now as choices for a big tough anti-tank unit, since (as now fully confirmed) the Blight Haulers only two points more per model.



Haulers are BS4. They can't deepstrike and they have 1 ML shot and 1 MM shot at 24" compared to 6 BC shots (effectively). They're certainly more durable, but they're also on the table and not terribly scary as it'd take them 2 to 3 turns to equal the fire output of one round for one obliterator.


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 Togusa wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


I have no remorse. They were perfectly fine at 65 points per model. Played last night with the new points, and this morning I wrote them all out of my list. 6 models for 700 points is over 1/3 of a 2K list, in an army with terrible troop options. Overcharged plasma makes short work of obliterators, which require you to either place or deepstrike within the range of the very gun that can kill them. T5 4W 5++ means nothing when you have to stick them out in the danger zone.

Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.

Obliterators are not very good now. It's a sad day, but at least there is a viable replacement for them.

If you don't put every buff in the game on them they are worth 65. When they are auto 6 shots with shooting twice hitting on 2's RR 1's and wounding on 2's RR'1s they are worth their points. In fact they are stronger than they were before if you use them like that.

Overcharged plasma is worthless against -1 and -2 to hit buffs Literally will do more damage to themselves than they do to you. Just spam the -1 to hit man.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


I have no remorse. They were perfectly fine at 65 points per model. Played last night with the new points, and this morning I wrote them all out of my list. 6 models for 700 points is over 1/3 of a 2K list, in an army with terrible troop options. Overcharged plasma makes short work of obliterators, which require you to either place or deepstrike within the range of the very gun that can kill them. T5 4W 5++ means nothing when you have to stick them out in the danger zone.

Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.

Obliterators are not very good now. It's a sad day, but at least there is a viable replacement for them.

If you don't put every buff in the game on them they are worth 65. When they are auto 6 shots with shooting twice hitting on 2's RR 1's and wounding on 2's RR'1s they are worth their points. In fact they are stronger than they were before if you use them like that.

Overcharged plasma is worthless against -1 and -2 to hit buffs Literally will do more damage to themselves than they do to you. Just spam the -1 to hit man.


Are you actually now trolling, because every imaginable buff get's rather bloody expensive for Chaos, not to mention that some of these buff givers are SLOWPOKES (MoP, DA).

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On moon miranda.

I think people are a whole lot more worried about being "right" on an anonymous internet message board than actually discussing the worth of Oblits

As is, I thought the old Oblits were thoroughly "meh", I think the new ones are "meh", and still think they need to be more like 90pts than 65 or 115.

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Yea, this sells me on the idea to just rebase my old Oblits on 50mm bases, instead of shelling out some buck on the new ones.
   
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 Togusa wrote:


Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.


AC havocs - 116
ML havocs - 156
Apostle - 110

So for more than the price of 3 obliterators you get 10 3+/5++ T5 wounds and 8 S7 AP2 D2 and 4 S8 AP2 DD6 shots.

Or for 37 points less -

8 T5 2+/5++ wounds, deepstrike, and 18 S8 AP2 D2 (roughly).

Havocs doubling their ML shots over two turns means 16 ML and 16 AC shots total - if they're all alive. Obliterators on turn 2 mean 36 shots, which is still more than the doubled havocs.

Caveat being rolling badly for the obliterator weapons. The apostle would also probably serve them better with a +1 to hit, which I think gives the edge to havocs,

At the end it comes down to whether or not you want to keep your firepower safe and if you want to do a funky daemon keyword build.

NOTE: this isn't a claim that they're good at 115 - just that they're not as bad as people make them out to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 16:25:01


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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


I have no remorse. They were perfectly fine at 65 points per model. Played last night with the new points, and this morning I wrote them all out of my list. 6 models for 700 points is over 1/3 of a 2K list, in an army with terrible troop options. Overcharged plasma makes short work of obliterators, which require you to either place or deepstrike within the range of the very gun that can kill them. T5 4W 5++ means nothing when you have to stick them out in the danger zone.

Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.

Obliterators are not very good now. It's a sad day, but at least there is a viable replacement for them.

If you don't put every buff in the game on them they are worth 65. When they are auto 6 shots with shooting twice hitting on 2's RR 1's and wounding on 2's RR'1s they are worth their points. In fact they are stronger than they were before if you use them like that.

Overcharged plasma is worthless against -1 and -2 to hit buffs Literally will do more damage to themselves than they do to you. Just spam the -1 to hit man.


Are you actually now trolling, because every imaginable buff get's rather bloody expensive for Chaos, not to mention that some of these buff givers are SLOWPOKES (MoP, DA).

No - I am just smart and know this unit deletes 2 units a turn at minimum and is likely at least -1 to hit with 4++ save when you go to shoot back at them. Buffs aren't really expensive in the sense you are talking about ether. They are auto include. The only question is what units are you going to use them on. Oblitz are unquestionably the best because they get 18x2 quality shots. Nothing else in the army even comes close....except a squad of 10 terminators all with combi meltas which costs A LOT MORE and has LESS range.

Chaos is a death star buff army...understand this. Win games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
I think people are a whole lot more worried about being "right" on an anonymous internet message board than actually discussing the worth of Oblits

As is, I thought the old Oblits were thoroughly "meh", I think the new ones are "meh", and still think they need to be more like 90pts than 65 or 115.

Except they weren't MEH. THey were VERY OP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 16:26:24


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 Galef wrote:
Is it too early to cross our fingers for CA2019 to drop them to 90ish ppm?

...in December


I'm actually okay with this. It forces CSM players to consider other options, rather than just spamming one unit three times because of its strengths and weight of dice. I feel as though I have more freedom to build my list now, without having to be "forced" to take max Oblits.
   
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Choas has so many options.

It's best options work the same was as oblitz though. Stack multiple buffs on a unit and crush things.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now that it’s 115 points confirmed even though those of us smart enough to know, knew that was their cost, how many of you that were using 65 point ones feel bad for cheating?


I have no remorse. They were perfectly fine at 65 points per model. Played last night with the new points, and this morning I wrote them all out of my list. 6 models for 700 points is over 1/3 of a 2K list, in an army with terrible troop options. Overcharged plasma makes short work of obliterators, which require you to either place or deepstrike within the range of the very gun that can kill them. T5 4W 5++ means nothing when you have to stick them out in the danger zone.

Havoks with autocannons and/or missile launchers will now be taking their place in my lists, at less than half the cost of 6 obliterators, double the models and the same toughness, less wound pool, same save in cover with sorcerer or dark apostle support providing an Invuln, but easier to hide with double the threat range and much more stable strength, damage and armor penetration. It's possible a single unit of three in DS with slanneesh mark is still a valid choice for a one trick pony, but I'm not sold.

Obliterators are not very good now. It's a sad day, but at least there is a viable replacement for them.

If you don't put every buff in the game on them they are worth 65. When they are auto 6 shots with shooting twice hitting on 2's RR 1's and wounding on 2's RR'1s they are worth their points. In fact they are stronger than they were before if you use them like that.

Overcharged plasma is worthless against -1 and -2 to hit buffs Literally will do more damage to themselves than they do to you. Just spam the -1 to hit man.


I play black legion, and I have no access to -1 to hit that I am aware of. Even if I do, it's a bad mechanic and I will not use it. On any of my units.

That said, 85-90 points per model seems a lot more appropriate for their cost. You could even make the weapon cost between 7-10 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Choas has so many options.

It's best options work the same was as oblitz though. Stack multiple buffs on a unit and crush things.


I was shocked to see how many options our terminators get when compared to loyalists. Wow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 16:37:55


 
   
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On moon miranda.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think people are a whole lot more worried about being "right" on an anonymous internet message board than actually discussing the worth of Oblits

As is, I thought the old Oblits were thoroughly "meh", I think the new ones are "meh", and still think they need to be more like 90pts than 65 or 115.

Except they weren't MEH. THey were VERY OP.
Which ones? The old ones or the new iteration? I didn't really rate either particularly highly, especially if they weren't closely supported Slaaneshi ones. Playing Iron Warriors, MoS didn't really have a place in my lists.

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If you are deliberately making a unit 50% weaker. Then yeah - it's going to be meh.

Know what is meh? A repulsor. That is Meh. Oblitz DS 1 shotting a repulsor almost automatically - thats not meh.

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On moon miranda.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you are deliberately making a unit 50% weaker. Then yeah - it's going to be meh.

Know what is meh? A repulsor. That is Meh. Oblitz DS 1 shotting a repulsor almost automatically - thats not meh.
I guess I'm not trying to cost them according to the maximum potential buff level and factoring the use of 2CP stratagems into their base cost. Even with EC, the Oldblits were not oneshotting a Repulsor by any means on average (they'd do 10-11 out of 16 wounds), so we have to factor in the cost of additional support (and ensuring it could be near enough the Oblits when they DS) as well for more buffs to make that happen. If we're talking a Character, 3 Oldblits, and 2 CP for a DS strike package to kill one 3+sv tank, that doesn't seem OP to me given the state of the game.

It also doesn't help that the Repulsor is basically a 1980's GI Joe toy with a gazillion absurdly named weapons that are just slightly different versions of existing alternatives and can't decide what it wants to actually be. The Repulsor is a fundamentally poorly thought out unit, not just a poorly costed one.

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I did some cleaning up, warnings have been issued and to quote myself from a few pages ago..

Final warning to all participants, as I am getting tired of seeing this thread light up my dashboard so often: RULE #1, to be polite to other users is not optional.

Failure to comply will result in suspensions and a general lock of the thread.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 21:05:43


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No - I am just smart and know this unit deletes 2 units a turn at minimum and is likely at least -1 to hit with 4++ save when you go to shoot back at them. Buffs aren't really expensive in the sense you are talking about ether. They are auto include. The only question is what units are you going to use them on. Oblitz are unquestionably the best because they get 18x2 quality shots. Nothing else in the army even comes close....except a squad of 10 terminators all with combi meltas which costs A LOT MORE and has LESS range.

Chaos is a death star buff army...understand this. Win games.


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok, sure buddy:

3x oblit 345 pts.

CP battery most effective brand (RC 2x warpsmith 3x5 csm )365 pts. --> generates 8CP
Therefore 365 :8 = 45.625 per CP/pts.

we use 4 CP for VotWL and Cacaphony--> 182.5 pts used for CP generation.

MoP 90 pts.
Soooo

Total: 182.5 + 90 + 345 = 617.5 pts.

HOWEVER: the MoP can not be hidden as effective, also he is not particulary fast so to get the buffs you need to be in a rather small area for his PSY.
He can also be eliminated before hand, he also struggles to get close to an intended target because the oblit weapons are also just 24".

So you were saying again?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also comparatively: A squad of 10 Combiplas Slaanesh terminators costs: 380 pts.
for firing 40 PG and 40 boltguns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 19:59:18


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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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The math has already been demonstrated. At 115 the unit is even more effective than it used to be at 65 points. And it receives buffs better that target units.

The question is are they worth their points and the answer is when played correctly they are even better than they were before. So...Yes...Because they were already OP. \

That isn't even remotely close to the cost of a 10 man combi plas term squad.

Interesting I didn't know terms could take chainaxes. That is a pretty good unit too. Maybe even better than oblitz now. I'll concede that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 20:13:34


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The math has already been demonstrated. At 115 the unit is even more effective than it used to be at 65 points. And it receives buffs better that target units.

The question is are they worth their points and the answer is when played correctly they are even better than they were before. So...Yes...Because they were already OP.


SO SHOW me your math then.
Because i sure as hell haven't seen anything that disproves this and also shows how much you really know about the army.

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Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
 
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