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 Formosa wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
it's not clear to me why Marines are really needed for that given the existence of Stormtroopers, Inquisitorial warbands, and so on...

Why does the U.S military have delta force or navy SEALS if they also they have army rangers?

Because highly skilled operatives with overwheming force being inserted into an area are worth ten times their number, they can move around more easily and have smaller numbers to hide, this is the concept of the space marines occupy in real life, small force of elite soldiers, the biggest difference in the scale, marines are near impervious to small arms fire, can run up to 40KPH for hours, can see further, hear further, react faster, are more resilient, can take more damage before being combat non effective, the list goes on.

If these things were real then any nation that had them would have such a tactical advantage over other nations it would be akin to bombs vs nukes, conventional warfare against such a force would simply be pointless as they can inflict unacceptable casualties much more rapidly that they would take them.

I was asking a rhetorical question...

 JNAProductions wrote:
And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.

Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?

Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.

Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Aside from the vast majority of armies being quite happy to take a vanquished enemy's supplies I'd question a good number of chapters having any issue with eating xenos or even humans.
I doubt Mortificators, Space Wolves or Blood Angels would see any issue with chowing down on traitors.

A handful of chapters sure, but even then, it's viewed as rather deviant, and significant Space Marine and larger Imperial fluff and dogma would frown...heavily on such things, and certainly not anything touched by Chaos. I can't imagine say, the Blood Angels doing something like eating Orks or Tyranids, maybe SW's but then they try to be literally everything and have some of the weirdest and most contradictory and absurd background out there (like firing artillery by smell ). We certainly don't have much in the way of fluff on such things.

One further point look up the Omniphagea or Remembrancer organ.

These are things that are described, but have almost no actual mention or examples used in fluff beyond the basic acknowledgement of the organs existence, and to be perfectly honest, eating a brain to gain its knowledge would (by fundamental definition) destroy that information before it could be read. It'd be like trying to read a hard drive by throwing it through an industrial shredder after unpowering it and zapping it with a giant magnet

Despite the existence of such organs, Marines still tend to conduct (terrifying) interrogations rather than just cracking open skulls and slurping down, that bit of fluff largely appears to have been forgotten/abandoned.

While I’ve never seen mention of the 8th organ that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. I honestly forgot about the implants completely until three recent books made mention of some and described what they did,Lukas the Trickster, Ashes of Prospero and Sons of the Hydra. I’d say it’s far more likely a lot of authors have simply never heard of the implants.

As for why they’d still have torture I think you summed it up pretty nicely with them destroying the information as they consume it. Most likely they get images, glimpses or something akin to a music video with clips from a movie, they have no real control over it but sometimes get lucky to get information confirming or refuting information gathered from torture. Torture is pretty inaccurate itself which is why there are so many methods with every other sadistic cretin thinking they can do it better. Intel gathering is only stopped by two conditions, a running out of time or a running out of sources.

As for cultural issues there are plenty of things large numbers do but people don’t talk about. Sex, religion, politics, guilty pleasures. While two of the chapters I mentioned before are probably pretty open about eating the enemy to gain information and nutrition hypocrisy is the second language in the Imperium and while they might mutter and give dark looks I’m betting Ultramarines will do it in private.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.

Did...did you read what happened?

I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?

They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.

I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.

Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?

Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.

Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.

I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.

Tabletop is not fluff Martel, the two almost never match up, otherwise I'd have 5 deathwing on the table and that would be my entire army.

So there is no Ubermensch fallacy, just you not getting that fluff does not directly equate to rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They can eat Necrons?

Even after the body teleports out?

If they can eat rocks - I'm sure metal has more calories. They can probably eat dirt too. Dirt is basically rocks.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.

Did...did you read what happened?

I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?

They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.

I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.

Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?

Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.

Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.

I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.

You should get a hobby you like.

Don't forget that the Astartes are fertile material in which to grow Daemon Princes!

You should get a hobby you like.

Yeah! Try playing other games, or make your own wargame. What I've been doing.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.

Did...did you read what happened?

I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?

They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.

I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.

Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?

Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.

Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.

I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.

you hate them because your blood angels army cou;dn't autowin every fight and you're bitter

Just a reminder about rule number one.

Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.

Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.

Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.

if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.

Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.

if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships

Nah thats not quite fair, its like hating Jedi, an integral part of the setting but not the only part of the setting.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.

Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.

if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships

Nah thats not quite fair, its like hating Jedi, an integral part of the setting but not the only part of the setting.

yeah and I always belived those people where crazy too, but there are a number of em out there.

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah and I always belived those people where crazy too, but there are a number of em out there.

Just to pound this out, in 40k "I don't like super soldiers" is so far from possibly giving a single gak about this universe that I don't know why you'd be interested.

Let's start low, the Imperial Guard, these are the most elite soldiers of entire worlds leaving the imperium with a genuine gap in it's defensive ability when they are raised.

Tau? Mind controlled stratified society with the most rapidly advancing technology in the galaxy carefully managing

Orks? Genetically engineered super weapons harder to get rid of than herpes.

Eldar? Genetically engineered super weapon with delusions of grandeur or delusions and herpes.

Tyranids? No genetic engineering here clearly.

Chaos space marines? Oh let's toss some warp stuff in on top of that genetic engineered super weapon.

Oddly enough, all of them die when you hit them with lascannons.



There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.

epronovost wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.

This ^^^^^^.

Among other problems.

epronovost wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.

true and it'd be intreasting to see a game design where a squad of marines where capable of dropping an entire battalion of guard, but I suspect it'd be a very "random heavy" game and not a lotta fun, without some sort of fundamental change

A battalion of Guardsmen wouldn't get dropped by 10 Marines, anyway.

Yeah, they'd have.. plasma guns. And other anti-tank weapons. Man-portable anti-tank weapons make the concept of marines basically futile.

epronovost wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.

The same could be said for most units in 40k. The format of the game doesn't work for the sort of engagement you're thinking about.

And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.

 Bobthehero wrote:
A battalion of Guardsmen wouldn't get dropped by 10 Marines, anyway.

I think for a more authentic portrayal of marines they should be.

In my headcanon, a single marine is worth an entire platoon of guardsmen, heavy weapons included.

Then there's the morale effect. A small squad of the night haunter's finest would be able to cause a lot of havoc in a hive and the military support for a guard army.

A marine bearing down on you, bullets bouncing off his armour would be rather intimidating as both his guns and his hands tend to leave behind a lot of gory piles of "may have been human"

 Insectum7 wrote:


And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.

And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.

As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.

epronovost wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.

The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.

Their weapons can blow off a limb and most hits are enough to take you out of the fight. Fluffwise they're plenty badass enough.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.

And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.

As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.

You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.

You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.

Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.

Martel732 wrote:Yeah, they'd have.. plasma guns. And other anti-tank weapons. Man-portable anti-tank weapons make the concept of marines basically futile.

The plasma guns which the lore says are rare? The plasma guns that are notoriously unreliable?

And are all these anti-tank weapons in the same place? Are they capable of hitting a very mobile and responsive Astartes? Sure, they might be great at hitting a big ol' tank, but a large man, who's moving faster than most normal men ever could? Not to mention trying to actually hit something vital, and not a redundant system which won't just anger the Marine?

The disjoint is too large. Marines are in fact slower than guardsmen in the game, which makes the speed argunent impossible to buy. GW could have given marines 8" move or guardsmen 4" if they wanted this to be true. Marines are no faster than humans.

Only raven guard are modeled with to hit penalties and those don't function within double tap plasma range. Marines are no harder to hit than anything else. If they were, they'd be modeled like alaitoc.

Relic units have rarity requirements. Plasma does not. It is impossible to accept rarity of plasma when every scion squad has 40% plasma and when forge worlds exist. You can say its rare, but the reality is that its quite common.

Martel732 wrote:
The disjoint is too large. Marines are in fact slower than guardsmen in the game, which makes the speed argunent impossible to buy. GW could have given marines 8" move or guardsmen 4" if they wanted this to be true. Marines are no faster than humans.

Only raven guard are modeled with to hit penalties and those don't function within double tap plasma range. Marines are no harder to hit than anything else. If they were, they'd be modeled like alaitoc.

Relic units have rarity requirements. Plasma does not. It is impossible to accept rarity of plasma when every scion squad has 40% plasma and when forge worlds exist. You can say its rare, but the reality is that its quite common.

are you being purposefully obtuse?

FLUFF DOES NOT EQUAL RULES, so stop using the rules to justify your dislike of the fluff, its moronic and you know it.