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And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.
First off, Custodes. Imperial Knights.
Second off, why don't Warriors have tactics, when guided by the hyper-intelligent hive mind?
Aspect Warriors are guided by the foresight of Farseers, they could easily have a strategic and tactical leg-up on Marines.
Necron Warriors I'll give you being dumber than Marines, but not Immortals, and DEFINITELY not Lychguard or Praetorians.
Nothing you say is really exclusive to Marines-they don't have a monopoly on brains, and in fact, given some of the fluff, can be pretty dang stupid.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
If the rules in no way reflect the fluff, then what is the point of the fluff? I'm being practical here. The fluff is stupid AND irrelevant. And marines don't matter in either scenario. Numbers or mechanics. Take your pick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 14:11:27
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.
First off, Custodes. Imperial Knights.
Second off, why don't Warriors have tactics, when guided by the hyper-intelligent hive mind?
Aspect Warriors are guided by the foresight of Farseers, they could easily have a strategic and tactical leg-up on Marines.
Necron Warriors I'll give you being dumber than Marines, but not Immortals, and DEFINITELY not Lychguard or Praetorians.
Nothing you say is really exclusive to Marines-they don't have a monopoly on brains, and in fact, given some of the fluff, can be pretty dang stupid.
Well if everyone else thinks having some elite warriors is a good idea, then maybe marines are a good idea too? They're elite soldiers who specialize in shock and awe, orbital insertion, and boarding actions. And were they not constrained by the codex, they'd be some of the most adaptable troops in the universe, since they spend several decades learning every possible task in the chapter. before being assigned to just carry a bolt gun.
Martel732 wrote:The disjoint is too large. Marines are in fact slower than guardsmen in the game, which makes the speed argunent impossible to buy. GW could have given marines 8" move or guardsmen 4" if they wanted this to be true. Marines are no faster than humans.
Only raven guard are modeled with to hit penalties and those don't function within double tap plasma range. Marines are no harder to hit than anything else. If they were, they'd be modeled like alaitoc.
Relic units have rarity requirements. Plasma does not. It is impossible to accept rarity of plasma when every scion squad has 40% plasma and when forge worlds exist. You can say its rare, but the reality is that its quite common.
Rules =/= fluff, and you know it.
At least, I hope you do.
Martel732 wrote:If the rules in no way reflect the fluff, then what is the point of the fluff? I'm being practical here. The fluff is stupid AND irrelevant. And marines don't matter in either scenario. Numbers or mechanics. Take your pick.
The fluff established the background of the game. The game doesn't NEED fluff, but it's good to have, in the same respect you can have 40k's fluff stand alone quite fine, but it's nice to have a dumbed down approximation, in the form of the game, to recreate it.
Look at Star Wars. That's got fluff (the entire Star Wars canon), and games (X-Wing, Legion, etc etc). There's still a disconnect between the two, and if you tried saying that things in the SW fluff were impossible or should be based off of the tabletop miniature game, then you'd quite rightly be laughed out of any kind of lore discussion.
The rules don't reflect the fluff *accurately*, but it has a point - to establish the fictional universe in which we have these battles. Ultimately, if you only care about the game itself (the moving of models to achieve objectives to win the game), then the fluff is irrelevant, but then, it always was and always will be - because you only care about the game, and you could just as well play the game with cardboard cutouts, coke cans as terrain, and no paint at all, if that's what you like.
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.
First off, Custodes. Imperial Knights.
Second off, why don't Warriors have tactics, when guided by the hyper-intelligent hive mind?
Aspect Warriors are guided by the foresight of Farseers, they could easily have a strategic and tactical leg-up on Marines.
Necron Warriors I'll give you being dumber than Marines, but not Immortals, and DEFINITELY not Lychguard or Praetorians.
Nothing you say is really exclusive to Marines-they don't have a monopoly on brains, and in fact, given some of the fluff, can be pretty dang stupid.
Well if everyone else thinks having some elite warriors is a good idea, then maybe marines are a good idea too? They're elite soldiers who specialize in shock and awe, orbital insertion, and boarding actions. And were they not constrained by the codex, they'd be some of the most adaptable troops in the universe, since they spend several decades learning every possible task in the chapter. before being assigned to just carry a bolt gun.
Other factions have elite troops like real world armies: better training and equipment for the best candidates, in sufficient numbers to be relevant.
Space marines are the equivalent of the entire US military having one special forces guy who only works one day a month and only if he agrees with the mission. Even if he's the greatest soldier ever it's still just one guy, and he is not going to decide a war between millions of soldiers.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: Other factions have elite troops like real world armies: better training and equipment for the best candidates, in sufficient numbers to be relevant.
Space marines are the equivalent of the entire US military having one special forces guy who only works one day a month and only if he agrees with the mission. Even if he's the greatest soldier ever it's still just one guy, and he is not going to decide a war between millions of soldiers.
I think you're right with the whole "one special forces guy", but I don't think I agree with the rest of the analogy. The rest of the analogy should be "one special forces guy who can stay operational for weeks, can redeploy on a moment's notice, is trained to use the entire arsenal and vehicle pool, and can shrug off and recover from nearly any injury". He still won't win a war single handedly, but he'll swing the tide of nearly any battle he's around at. He can't be in every battle, sure, but the ones he can be present for, he'll swing them right around in your favour, and then be ready to jump right into the next battle to do exactly the same, over and over again.
The only problem is, if your other guys can't keep up, or hold off the enemy without your special forces guy, then you're still going to lose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 15:35:00
Peregrine wrote: Other factions have elite troops like real world armies: better training and equipment for the best candidates, in sufficient numbers to be relevant.
Space marines are the equivalent of the entire US military having one special forces guy who only works one day a month and only if he agrees with the mission. Even if he's the greatest soldier ever it's still just one guy, and he is not going to decide a war between millions of soldiers.
I think you're right with the whole "one special forces guy", but I don't think I agree with the rest of the analogy.
The rest of the analogy should be "one special forces guy who can stay operational for weeks, can redeploy on a moment's notice, is trained to use the entire arsenal and vehicle pool, and can shrug off and recover from nearly any injury". He still won't win a war single handedly, but he'll swing the tide of nearly any battle he's around at. He can't be in every battle, sure, but the ones he can be present for, he'll swing them right around in your favour, and then be ready to jump right into the next battle to do exactly the same, over and over again.
Stay operational for weeks, check.
Redeploy at a moments notice, kinda check. They still need ships to move from place to place, and Scions are pretty much just as ready to redeploy.
Trained to use the entire arsenal and vehicle pool, check.
Shrug off and recover from nearly injury, nope. Hit him with a pistol, he's fine. A rifle? Hurt, but certainly not out. A missile designed to kill a tank? He's crippled for a month at best, dead at worst.
That's the thing-plasma might be rare. Meltas, not as rare. Missiles are pretty damn common. Anything that can kill a tank or a big Nid gribbly can kill a Marine with ease, or at the very least take them out of action for a considerable period of time.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.
First off, Custodes. Imperial Knights.
Second off, why don't Warriors have tactics, when guided by the hyper-intelligent hive mind?
Aspect Warriors are guided by the foresight of Farseers, they could easily have a strategic and tactical leg-up on Marines.
Necron Warriors I'll give you being dumber than Marines, but not Immortals, and DEFINITELY not Lychguard or Praetorians.
Nothing you say is really exclusive to Marines-they don't have a monopoly on brains, and in fact, given some of the fluff, can be pretty dang stupid.
Well if everyone else thinks having some elite warriors is a good idea, then maybe marines are a good idea too? They're elite soldiers who specialize in shock and awe, orbital insertion, and boarding actions. And were they not constrained by the codex, they'd be some of the most adaptable troops in the universe, since they spend several decades learning every possible task in the chapter. before being assigned to just carry a bolt gun.
Other factions have elite troops like real world armies: better training and equipment for the best candidates, in sufficient numbers to be relevant.
Space marines are the equivalent of the entire US military having one special forces guy who only works one day a month and only if he agrees with the mission. Even if he's the greatest soldier ever it's still just one guy, and he is not going to decide a war between millions of soldiers.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Deadshot wrote: You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
This is true of pretty much any group of people no matter their origin. Space Marines aren't even described as tactical or strategical geniuses. They are often prone to insanity and rigid dogmatism. The Ultramarines are famous and are widely considered the examplar Chapter precisely because they have good tactics. They neither are one trick poneys and neither are they maniacs. As for a deep chain of command, Tau, Tyranids and Eldar easily have one and Necron aren't bad either. Only Orks are described as vulnerable to a thin one.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Indeed, hence why in my headcanon, Space Marines are a relic from a bygone age too few to change much and who have obtained a legend status. Their only real pressing impact comes from their symbolic, the army of serfs that surrounds them and their ships. They are completely helpless, alone, before the might of the Imperium new enemies and the rising forces of old foes. Space Marines were created in 30K as a mass produce vast legion of super-soldier, back then they made sense. Now, they are in ridiculously small number, frequently with genetic flaws that have risen due to the passage of time, shadow of their former glory. Even within the fluff, Space Marines are described as a relic to then be presented as savior of the Imperium a paragraph bellow or a book over.
Peregrine wrote: Other factions have elite troops like real world armies: better training and equipment for the best candidates, in sufficient numbers to be relevant.
Space marines are the equivalent of the entire US military having one special forces guy who only works one day a month and only if he agrees with the mission. Even if he's the greatest soldier ever it's still just one guy, and he is not going to decide a war between millions of soldiers.
I think you're right with the whole "one special forces guy", but I don't think I agree with the rest of the analogy.
The rest of the analogy should be "one special forces guy who can stay operational for weeks, can redeploy on a moment's notice, is trained to use the entire arsenal and vehicle pool, and can shrug off and recover from nearly any injury". He still won't win a war single handedly, but he'll swing the tide of nearly any battle he's around at. He can't be in every battle, sure, but the ones he can be present for, he'll swing them right around in your favour, and then be ready to jump right into the next battle to do exactly the same, over and over again.
Stay operational for weeks, check.
Redeploy at a moments notice, kinda check. They still need ships to move from place to place, and Scions are pretty much just as ready to redeploy.
Trained to use the entire arsenal and vehicle pool, check.
Shrug off and recover from nearly injury, nope. Hit him with a pistol, he's fine. A rifle? Hurt, but certainly not out. A missile designed to kill a tank? He's crippled for a month at best, dead at worst.
That's the thing-plasma might be rare. Meltas, not as rare. Missiles are pretty damn common. Anything that can kill a tank or a big Nid gribbly can kill a Marine with ease, or at the very least take them out of action for a considerable period of time.
the redeploy at a moments notice is, comparitively speaking a check, the guard needs time to mobilize, to assmble the regiment, to get a ship willing and able to transport them (this can take a bit due to the beucracies involved) space marines are valuable to skip past the red tape and just fething deploy.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Historically, in 2nd Ed armies had a"Strategy rating" which helped determine which army went first. I think both Eldar and Space marines had the higest faction rating. This was intended to represent how certain forces could take initiative and mobilize better than others.
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Historically, in 2nd Ed armies had a"Strategy rating" which helped determine which army went first. I think both Eldar and Space marines had the higest faction rating. This was intended to represent how certain forces could take initiative and mobilize better than others.
Eldar and marines had 4, dark angels had 5 with Azrael, it was in 3rd too but was almost never used, funnily enough it is a system I would have used instead of command points, each army has a strat rating then on top of that you add formation bonus, these points can only be used by the army that generated them except for the ones generated by special characters.
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Technically, strike fast and redeploy is also the specialty of the Scions. Their APT are fast and well armed and can negotiate any terrain, they can even magnetise their threads to climb vertical surfaces. Their other vehicle is a well armed flyer and their most common method of deployment is dropping from the sky. Logistically, it's a bt more complicated for them to move around since they need navy assets while the Space Marines have their own, but, unlike Space Marines who maintain fortresses and garrisons, Scions are always on the move which means the requesting of navy assets to move them around isn't all that necessary.
To your list of xenos, I would add the Evil Sun and Speed Freak Orks in general as well as Tau, but really, pretty much all factions can deploy specialised and fast moving elite armies. The Imperium isn't unique in that and probably not even the best at it.
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Historically, in 2nd Ed armies had a"Strategy rating" which helped determine which army went first. I think both Eldar and Space marines had the higest faction rating. This was intended to represent how certain forces could take initiative and mobilize better than others.
Eldar and marines had 4, dark angels had 5 with Azrael, it was in 3rd too but was almost never used, funnily enough it is a system I would have used instead of command points, each army has a strat rating then on top of that you add formation bonus, these points can only be used by the army that generated them except for the ones generated by special characters.
would be a good way to balance small elite armies. no one would question if custodes and marines had the highest "stragety rating" because it'd play into how the army should play.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Historically, in 2nd Ed armies had a"Strategy rating" which helped determine which army went first. I think both Eldar and Space marines had the higest faction rating. This was intended to represent how certain forces could take initiative and mobilize better than others.
Eldar and marines had 4, dark angels had 5 with Azrael, it was in 3rd too but was almost never used, funnily enough it is a system I would have used instead of command points, each army has a strat rating then on top of that you add formation bonus, these points can only be used by the army that generated them except for the ones generated by special characters.
Actually, looking at it again the breakdown is thus:
Space Marines 5
Eldar 4
Orks, Chaos 3
Imperial Guard, Squats 2
Tyranids 1
Some special characters like Azrael and Calgar could push it to 6. I think Orks had either a character or rule that pushed them to 6 through sheer aggression.
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Technically, strike fast and redeploy is also the specialty of the Scions. Their APT are fast and well armed and can negotiate any terrain, they can even magnetise their threads to climb vertical surfaces. Their other vehicle is a well armed flyer and their most common method of deployment is dropping from the sky. Logistically, it's a bt more complicated for them to move around since they need navy assets while the Space Marines have their own, but, unlike Space Marines who maintain fortresses and garrisons, Scions are always on the move which means the requesting of navy assets to move them around isn't all that necessary.
To your list of xenos, I would add the Evil Sun and Speed Freak Orks in general as well as Tau, but really, pretty much all factions can deploy specialised and fast moving elite armies. The Imperium isn't unique in that and probably not even the best at it.
Though Scions might be fast, they may not be quite-as-fast. For example, flyers and grav-shutes may not be as fast as Drop Pods and teleportation, and IG commanders might not have the strategic or tactical mastery of a Space Marine commander. There's plenty of room for different "levels-of-fast".
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Technically, strike fast and redeploy is also the specialty of the Scions. Their APT are fast and well armed and can negotiate any terrain, they can even magnetise their threads to climb vertical surfaces. Their other vehicle is a well armed flyer and their most common method of deployment is dropping from the sky. Logistically, it's a bt more complicated for them to move around since they need navy assets while the Space Marines have their own, but, unlike Space Marines who maintain fortresses and garrisons, Scions are always on the move which means the requesting of navy assets to move them around isn't all that necessary.
To your list of xenos, I would add the Evil Sun and Speed Freak Orks in general as well as Tau, but really, pretty much all factions can deploy specialised and fast moving elite armies. The Imperium isn't unique in that and probably not even the best at it.
Yeah, scions are just about as close to space marine as regular humans can get (short of sisters of battle shenanigans). But Scions both in game and in story seem to have rather low survival rate, which is different from marinesl. They're mostly portrayed as brainwashed and disposable commandos. Space Marines are expected to operate under normal circumstances for a century at least. I'd be amazed to see a scion with five years of service based on their lore.
Their survival time should also be tied to the dangerousness of the tasks they get chosen for. A group of deathwatch may actually survive their trip into a tyranid hive ship. An army of guard, no matter how large would likely be nommed in short order. The over the top skill and survivability does have it's place in the lore. Especially considering AI is outlawed and the tech is so degraded that drones are not exceptionally practical.
I say that to compare our real world development of military tech. Give us a few years and we are unlikley to see humans striding the battlefield, instead seeing custom built robots and remote controlled drones for the task I doubt we'll ever put the resources into making a genetically engineered human covered in thick powerarmor. As terrifying as that would be for some situations
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Historically, in 2nd Ed armies had a"Strategy rating" which helped determine which army went first. I think both Eldar and Space marines had the higest faction rating. This was intended to represent how certain forces could take initiative and mobilize better than others.
Eldar and marines had 4, dark angels had 5 with Azrael, it was in 3rd too but was almost never used, funnily enough it is a system I would have used instead of command points, each army has a strat rating then on top of that you add formation bonus, these points can only be used by the army that generated them except for the ones generated by special characters.
Actually, looking at it again the breakdown is thus:
Space Marines 5
Eldar 4
Orks, Chaos 3
Imperial Guard, Squats 2
Tyranids 1
Some special characters like Azrael and Calgar could push it to 6. I think Orks had either a character or rule that pushed them to 6 through sheer aggression.
Insectum7 wrote: ^ absolutely. The strike-fast-and-redeploy is the Space Marine specialty. Them and Eldar, really. The other factions can do it but aren't as focussed on it logistically and doctrinally.
Technically, strike fast and redeploy is also the specialty of the Scions. Their APT are fast and well armed and can negotiate any terrain, they can even magnetise their threads to climb vertical surfaces. Their other vehicle is a well armed flyer and their most common method of deployment is dropping from the sky. Logistically, it's a bt more complicated for them to move around since they need navy assets while the Space Marines have their own, but, unlike Space Marines who maintain fortresses and garrisons, Scions are always on the move which means the requesting of navy assets to move them around isn't all that necessary.
To your list of xenos, I would add the Evil Sun and Speed Freak Orks in general as well as Tau, but really, pretty much all factions can deploy specialised and fast moving elite armies. The Imperium isn't unique in that and probably not even the best at it.
Though Scions might be fast, they may not be quite-as-fast. For example, flyers and grav-shutes may not be as fast as Drop Pods and teleportation, and IG commanders might not have the strategic or tactical mastery of a Space Marine commander. There's plenty of room for different "levels-of-fast".
I get the feeling orks were D3 +3 or just a D6 for some reason
cody.d. wrote: Their survival time should also be tied to the dangerousness of the tasks they get chosen for. A group of deathwatch may actually survive their trip into a tyranid hive ship. An army of guard, no matter how large would likely be nommed in short order. The over the top skill and survivability does have it's place in the lore. Especially considering AI is outlawed and the tech is so degraded that drones are not exceptionally practical.
I say that to compare our real world development of military tech. Give us a few years and we are unlikley to see humans striding the battlefield, instead seeing custom built robots and remote controlled drones for the task I doubt we'll ever put the resources into making a genetically engineered human covered in thick powerarmor. As terrifying as that would be for some situations
How many Marines would it take to handle a Hive Ship?
Because that thing has easily 1,000 Warriors, each one of them more than a match for most Marines in close combat, such as that you'd see in the cramped confines of a Hive Ship.
cody.d. wrote: Their survival time should also be tied to the dangerousness of the tasks they get chosen for. A group of deathwatch may actually survive their trip into a tyranid hive ship. An army of guard, no matter how large would likely be nommed in short order. The over the top skill and survivability does have it's place in the lore. Especially considering AI is outlawed and the tech is so degraded that drones are not exceptionally practical.
I say that to compare our real world development of military tech. Give us a few years and we are unlikley to see humans striding the battlefield, instead seeing custom built robots and remote controlled drones for the task I doubt we'll ever put the resources into making a genetically engineered human covered in thick powerarmor. As terrifying as that would be for some situations
How many Marines would it take to handle a Hive Ship?
Because that thing has easily 1,000 Warriors, each one of them more than a match for most Marines in close combat, such as that you'd see in the cramped confines of a Hive Ship.
between 5 and 20 if its in transit, more if not, we have a couple of stories of marines boarding a hive ship and it is totally in their favour due to the confined areas they work in, the nid numbers mean nothing and the marines ability to take on 1/2 opponents at a time helps a lot, basically nearly any scenario in space that involves space marines is heavily skewed in their favour, even on hive ships.
Formosa wrote: between 5 and 20 if its in transit, more if not, we have a couple of stories of marines boarding a hive ship and it is totally in their favour due to the confined areas they work in, the nid numbers mean nothing and the marines ability to take on 1/2 opponents at a time helps a lot, basically nearly any scenario in space that involves space marines is heavily skewed in their favour, even on hive ships.
if you suspend disbelief long enough to not realise a couple of Carnifex is going to kill them all as they are about as tough as tanks and you don't have the advantage of range to shoot them down with cannons. I single one could massacre very easily about 20 Marines or more in close quarter combat. Tyranid are specialist of close combat, they love it when things get down to short distance. It's the same thing for Orks. A couple of Meganobz and say farewell to your Space Marine Strike force since in close combat nobz are more fearsome then Space Marines and tactics devolves quickly to just a punching match since there is no space to manoeuvre and no cover. If you fight Tau, force once their Breacher teams will be in their element and each of their gun is about as powerful as plasma gun at very short range. Again, Space Marines will hate that surprise. Necron usually uses Canoptek Wraith to protect their ships and installations, machines made of living metal who can shift between dimensions, pass through obstacles and disintegrate you. Space Marines have an easy job during boarding against Imperial Guards and Eldars who count on artillery and mass numbers or mobility and subterfuge respectively to win their battle. I know there are stories where Space Marines board hive ships, but they require a thick level of plot-armor for the Space Marine and the Tyranids to be massively stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 01:23:17
cody.d. wrote: Their survival time should also be tied to the dangerousness of the tasks they get chosen for. A group of deathwatch may actually survive their trip into a tyranid hive ship. An army of guard, no matter how large would likely be nommed in short order. The over the top skill and survivability does have it's place in the lore. Especially considering AI is outlawed and the tech is so degraded that drones are not exceptionally practical.
I say that to compare our real world development of military tech. Give us a few years and we are unlikley to see humans striding the battlefield, instead seeing custom built robots and remote controlled drones for the task I doubt we'll ever put the resources into making a genetically engineered human covered in thick powerarmor. As terrifying as that would be for some situations
How many Marines would it take to handle a Hive Ship?
Because that thing has easily 1,000 Warriors, each one of them more than a match for most Marines in close combat, such as that you'd see in the cramped confines of a Hive Ship.
between 5 and 20 if its in transit, more if not, we have a couple of stories of marines boarding a hive ship and it is totally in their favour due to the confined areas they work in, the nid numbers mean nothing and the marines ability to take on 1/2 opponents at a time helps a lot, basically nearly any scenario in space that involves space marines is heavily skewed in their favour, even on hive ships.
nid numbers matter when you run out of ammo after the first hundred or so then get mauled to death by genestealers/warriors who are fully capable of piercing through terminator armor with their claws. Marine stories tend to break my suspension of disbelief because of things like that. (seriously how much ammo does a marine have? 20-40 bolts maybe?)The concept of groups of super-soldiers independently helping where they can is perfectly fine, but the actual stories don't really work. Marines just suffer from poor writing and world building, imo.
Upon saying that, if a tunnel/vein is wide enough for 2 marines to squeeze through I doubt a Carnifex would be able to do much. Additionally I'm not sure how many fexes would be on the ship at any given time. But yes, a marine would struggle if he tried to headbutt those organisms larger than themselves, but then again, a deathwatch team with a couple of fraglaunchers in a tight passage way sounds like a quick way to build up a silly level of kills does it not?
Again this comes down to what current day marines are best at, going in to complete a specific mission, having the correct tools for the job, for the issues they expect to face. Need to get into a bunker or wipe out a few large value targets? Take a few meltabombs. Need to blow the head off some warboss who's stirring up a waagh? Send in some scouts with sniper rifles. An incoming tide of traitors with some sorcerer about to bring in demons? Send in a few assault marines to try and goomba him.
Yes these are all things a guard army could do. If they have the equipment and intel, if the enemy is staying perfectly still for long enough. The guard need better conditions to perform their task, and when they lose in the fluff it's usually because how much of a clumsy and imprecise force they are, how easy it is to dick with the common soldier.
In the terrifying universe that 40K is having what amounts to a love session between captain america and ironman does have it's place.
a small kill team sent onto a hive ship would proably be delivering a payload and likely would be expecting it to be a one way mission. it's really a job only Marines COULD do
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: a small kill team sent onto a hive ship would proably be delivering a payload and likely would be expecting it to be a one way mission. it's really a job only Marines COULD do
The issue I take with that is the assumption that a small kill team should be able to fight it's way into a hive ship. A hive ship of any importance will have millions of bugs waiting to kill you. How much ammo did they bring? Could the passage ways get blocked by the firefights? How deep are they going? Couldn't the ship also try to kill the marines or at least stop them? At a certain point, expecting 5 marines to make any progress into a hive ship is just ridiculous, and the fact that the stories show it to be possible just ruins my suspension of disbelief.
GW didn't have to write marines that way. I'd be more than happy to acknowledge that a single marine is worth say 10-20 guardsmen (100 would be pushing it imo), but the lore seems to indicate that a single marine could take on a whole regiment by itself, which is just stupid and unnecessary.
BrianDavion wrote: a small kill team sent onto a hive ship would proably be delivering a payload and likely would be expecting it to be a one way mission. it's really a job only Marines COULD do
The issue I take with that is the assumption that a small kill team should be able to fight it's way into a hive ship. A hive ship of any importance will have millions of bugs waiting to kill you. How much ammo did they bring? Could the passage ways get blocked by the firefights? How deep are they going? Couldn't the ship also try to kill the marines or at least stop them? At a certain point, expecting 5 marines to make any progress into a hive ship is just ridiculous, and the fact that the stories show it to be possible just ruins my suspension of disbelief.
GW didn't have to write marines that way. I'd be more than happy to acknowledge that a single marine is worth say 10-20 guardsmen (100 would be pushing it imo), but the lore seems to indicate that a single marine could take on a whole regiment by itself, which is just stupid and unnecessary.
I have to pre fix this with #notall
So the only times we have seen marines board hive ships they have been dormant or not expecting the assault, each time the hive ship has had NO warrior organisms awake or on board, the ship has to produce the nids and that takes time and if its already dropped its payload on the planet or the organisms are in stasis due to being in transit it takes time to wake them up.
Basically boarding a hive ship is pretty much the same as boarding a borg ship, you have a random amount of time before the ship and its occupants react to you and start to counter attack, problem is with marines you really really dont want to give them that time.
as for the larger tyranid organisms, they wont have been birthed yet (carifex etc.) or be in stasis (hive tyrant) so its usually only gaunts and warriors and similar types of creatures available, even genestealers wont be around as they are vanguard organisms not hold ground defensive ones, larger creatures are created as and when needed and this also takes time.
I have not read the most recent tyranid codex so if any of this has changed let me know.
If I recall usually they do these sort of raids to get "pure" or unmutated genetic matter to create hellfire or anti nid rounds. At least that's what I vaugley remember from the Ventris omnibus.
Yep. The older lore had marines boarding tyranid ships for information and to attack vital organs to knock out the ship. And all of those missions were attempted while the ship was still relatively dormant. These missions were still very hazardous.
If you want to play that sort of mission, find a copy of Space Crusade or Tyranid Attack. 30ish marines vs. A slowly waking hive ship. Very cool game.
A thing I find funny about the 1 super soldier turning a tide of wars quite back to back. Not being able to be in every engagement but is pretty much capable of carrying tha one's he is in. Halo video game. Master chief might as well just be a high ranked space marine for he acts out exactly what their plan is. And as a previous poster stated, many xenos have a clear central weakpoint (war boss for one). While IG has their own commandos, they do pale in comparison to the space marines.
