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Made in us
Wing Commander





Ok, well, that still hurt my DW, but it was time for a change anyway.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 fraser1191 wrote:
Vet intercessors sgts are going to have 5 attacks granted they'll be swinging on 4s but it's still solid imo

Ehh - you wont have the CP for it now. 2 CP per 10 man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

It was already quite expensive though. I really don't think the thunderhammer was the problem. Stratagems enhancing their power 4 fold is the problem. I totally agree - smash captain are too strong.


Put it this way - those stratagems wouldn't be worth using if there wasn't a thunderhammer there.


Or if the thunder hammer costs a arm, leg and liver.


If the smash captain is able to make it to combat unmolested, which is expected for him to work, then he's hitting like a truck. That you have to pay 21 more points doesn't change that he;ll still hit above his weight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Why not just increase the cost of the stratagem that gives bonus attacks? Or fix the busted CP system. It seems like they are trying to do that as in this codex space marines basically lost the ability to bring allies because it takes away doctrines. At the same time they make a thunder hammer 40 points. Basically you can't take it at that price. If a power fist is 9 points.


Then take a power fist if you think the cost is too high. When a fist was less than half a TH people STILL didn't take it, because they're going to make sure they maximize damage.

I take powerfist all the time on intercessor sargents. Probably still will. I would sometimes take a TH on a bike captain but now it kinda like...not even an an option. BA can still use it I suppose but a 20 point increase is nothing to 1 shot knights. Other marines can't do that though so it is a bad change. Yet another bad change in this codex. Seems like they are just nerfing everything that has been good for marines when they have in fact been one of the worst armies in the game. It's pretty absurd. This isn't how you make an army better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:44:48


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Argive wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Xeno your entire codex got bonus AP across the whole army…. wounds, attacks and multiple point drops plus all sorts of strats. Do you even have the book yet?

How you can complain is beyond me.. You codex has a bad unit in it? Woopse friggin doodle. welcome to 40k where most codex have 60% of their entries dog gak.

Heaven forbid you have to think and use right weapons for right targets rather than spam 40 intercessors with g man and expect to win purely through ROF re-roll everything... Most of us having to choose bwteen fine cast or gtfo units would kill their first borns for a kick ass codex and constant stream of new releases...
True - I am getting a healthy dose of plastic crack compared to eldar for marines but I play all the armies. you have my sympathy if all you want is new eldar minis to build and paint. Have you considered quins? I have a fair sized eldar force too. All ulthwe. Realistically I use the same strategy with eldar as well - except I don't have to rally around a 6" bubble buff. I deep strike 20-40 gaurdians and shoot the doomed target + I take starcannon warwalkers because I plan to shoot them at doomed target. I take 2-3 fireprisims and use linked fire. Reliability is the name of the game.

Imagine you spent like 500 quid on 3 repuslors and 2 executioners. Got them all painted and then suddenly they both get nerfed by about 15% point cost - when they already werent that great flying around with 3+ saves and no invunes. I think you'd be equally bitter as me. Your favroite and best painted model by far gets nerfed into oblivion (Guilliman). Your chapter tactic (which might as well not even exist in most games) is ignored while every other chapter tactic gets buffed (when they were already better). It is a pretty depressing day to play Ultramarines. They did get some neat new rules but it isn't nearly cosolidation for the losses. The army got weaker and it was already pretty freaking weak. A not ass chapter tactic really should have come with the nerf to gman.

I literally could not beat tau or admech or eldar with space marines. Granted all I face is really well built armies. It seems to me there is a giant disconnect between the rules makers and people who actually understand how the game is played.


It seems you like a hard stomping tabling style of play..

I'm a purist so only CWE units for CWE army(quins should be part of our book but hey ho...). I tend to make lists out of units I like which normally people say they suck and try to make them work for me. It's usualy a 50/50 toss up and people often just don't expect to be dealing with the mobility of warp spiders for example. My next crazy idea is for a warlock conclave on foot and some other wriath shenanighans. My rangers don't even have an infiltrate style deployment so that sucks..

It sucks for you, I get it. But nobody put a gun to your head and told you to Spend £500 on 5 models. You made the choice and banked on the new hotness winning you games and it is not delivering...
When ynnari got nerfed, people dumped their whole armies on ebay so you can cheer yourself up with that.


Eh, it's not so much that as it is he needs a reason for why he loses that isn't his fault. If his army is bad or if his army can't 'table his opponent every game (LOL what a joke of an excuse that is) then he can play the victim and never examine whether or not he's actually just really not very good at the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:47:47


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Just stop with that - I win far more than I lose. Marines are a bad army full stop. They always have been. I play in most the local tournaments around here and do really well. Top table is pretty much expect for me - not that I am bragging - it's actually you that is bragging by telling me to learn to play. You are saying you are better at playing the game than I am. I didn't bring up skill once. I'd also never bring marines to a tournament ether. The people that do have something other than winning on their mind. Never understood the aversion to tabling - you know you are playing a wargame right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:52:10


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

@Xenomancer

Do you primarily play ITC?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
@Xenomancer

Do you primarily play ITC?

Our tournments are ITC around here. a few weeks before a tournamnet we play ITC - the rest of the time it's like semi competitive rulebook missions. So 50/50.

I'm actually gonna be doing a lot better in tournaments because my Gman and knights build just got a whole lot better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:09:43


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Yeah ITC drives people into certain lists because of the way scoring is done.

The game is by far the best with the missions in the 2018 Chapter Approved. They are so much better than people realise, I'm hoping you've given them a fair shot. They prevent lists that are too focused on one thing from succeeding over the whole range of missions which is an incredible balancing factor:

EG: No invuls near the central objectives, or only troops can score, or characters get bonus points on objectives, etc etc drives armies to build well rounded lists.
It means that meta busters like the all flyer Eldar list or some static gunline list can't win the missions.

The ITC has become a giant so shifts will be hard, and it has the downside of limiting the experience of players. There are entire communities that have not experienced the missions from the recent Chapter Approved.

Also, whilst the secondary ITC objectives are pretty damn good, the main missions are pretty dull! But hey, that's just my opinion. I'm sure I'll be playing at an ITC event again soon lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:23:12


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:


The game is by far the best with the missions in the 2018 Chapter Approved.


This is false.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I prefer ITC, as it gives actual penalties to horde armies. Mass body count obj sec is a real headache in CA 2018. However CA 2018 is better than all previous GW offerings. So they are learning. Also, gangbusters is very welcome!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:28:40


 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Reemule wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:


The game is by far the best with the missions in the 2018 Chapter Approved.


This is false.


Play all six missions and see, it's really good,

You can modify the maelstrom to be more predictable also.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah ITC drives people into certain lists because of the way scoring is done.

The game is by far the best with the missions in the 2018 Chapter Approved. They are so much better than people realise, I'm hoping you've given them a fair shot. They prevent lists that are too focused on one thing from succeeding over the whole range of missions which is an incredible balancing factor:

EG: No invuls near the central objectives, or only troops can score, or characters get bonus points on objectives, etc etc drives armies to build well rounded lists.
It means that meta busters like the all flyer Eldar list or some static gunline list can't win the missions.

The ITC has become a giant so shifts will be hard, and it has the downside of limiting the experience of players. There are entire communities that have not experienced the missions from the recent Chapter Approved.

Also, whilst the secondary ITC objectives are pretty damn good, the main missions are pretty dull! But hey, that's just my opinion. I'm sure I'll be playing at an ITC event again soon lol
Yes by rulebook mission i mean chapter approved. That is the majority of what we play except for tournament prep. I like them - most of those missions tabling doesn't even mean you auto win. It helps though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
I prefer ITC, as it gives actual penalties to horde armies. Mass body count obj sec is a real headache in CA 2018. However CA 2018 is better than all previous GW offerings. So they are learning. Also, gangbusters is very welcome!

ITC is not perfect. Secondaires too strong IMO. Objectives dont actually matter enough IMO. This coming from a guy that doesn't even care for objectives all that much. Anyways. ITC is still fun because at least people understand that it is a competitive game mode and don't bitch about army comp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:


The game is by far the best with the missions in the 2018 Chapter Approved.


This is false.

This is subjective.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:47:32


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





New Chaplain buffs are out. Litinies are insane now....
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Of course its not perfect. I just said it has some downsides for hordes, since gw made them all immune to morale.

Id prefer secondaries be even stronger, but i like player agency.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:52:39


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
Of course its not perfect. I just said it has some downsides for hordes, since gw made them all immune to morale.

Id prefer secondaries be even stronger, but i like player agency.
Daemons aren't.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
New Chaplain buffs are out. Litinies are insane now....
Noticeably weaker than the CSM ones. No -1 to hit. No 5++ aura. It will be used for 5+ FNP to 1 unit or +1 to hit. Pretty okay but not insane.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Of course its not perfect. I just said it has some downsides for hordes, since gw made them all immune to morale.

Id prefer secondaries be even stronger, but i like player agency.
Daemons aren't.


Whose most commony used troop is very very very difficult to damage.
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

The 5+ FNP is only against mortal wounds.

I think the best one is +2 to charge and +1 to wound? Was that a thing?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Of course its not perfect. I just said it has some downsides for hordes, since gw made them all immune to morale.

Id prefer secondaries be even stronger, but i like player agency.
Daemons aren't.


Whose most commony used troop is very very very difficult to damage.
They're less durable than a Tactical Marine to small arms fire.

5++/5+++ gives you a 56% chance of saving against a D1 weapon, as compared to a Tac Marines 67% chance. Tac Marine does suffer from AP, true, but they can also go in cover to halve damage taken from AP0-Daemons can't do that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Less durable individually, but how about point for point?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
New Chaplain buffs are out. Litinies are insane now....


And beyond clunky to utilize because they have to be activated at the beginning of the battle round.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Of course its not perfect. I just said it has some downsides for hordes, since gw made them all immune to morale.

Id prefer secondaries be even stronger, but i like player agency.
Daemons aren't.


Whose most commony used troop is very very very difficult to damage.
They're less durable than a Tactical Marine to small arms fire.

5++/5+++ gives you a 56% chance of saving against a D1 weapon, as compared to a Tac Marines 67% chance. Tac Marine does suffer from AP, true, but they can also go in cover to halve damage taken from AP0-Daemons can't do that.


They always have neg to hit as well but i get your point. Demons have a fantastic record atm, so they have their advantages.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
The 5+ FNP is only against mortal wounds.

I think the best one is +2 to charge and +1 to wound? Was that a thing?
+1 to wound isn't that great. Because it has to be at the closest enemy and it activates at the start of the turn. +1 to hit is the best option IMO.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Does the +1 to hit impact all units within 6 or just one?

I've not seen the Litanies in detail

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:15:54


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

I’m not saying Daemons are worse than Marines-they aren’t.

But morale is a weakness of theirs

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Its just hard to kill that many pb. Thats all.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Xenomancers wrote:
+1 to wound isn't that great. Because it has to be at the closest enemy and it activates at the start of the turn. +1 to hit is the best option IMO.


Given the timing, I agree, still not crappy, there will be situations where it's very useful. That being said, if it works like Dark Apostles, you'll have to pick and choose, at which point the +1 to hit is going to be the go to. Of course, I have some lists where I run multiple Dark Apostles, I suspect multiple Chaplains won't be that unusual.

The +1 to hit is very good, especially with abilities that trigger on a 6 to hit. This is going to be auto-include for most Marine lists I suspect and mandatory for IF lists.

The +2 to charge is interesting. Seems like it could have some potential with White Scars and Assault Doctrine, but the timing looks a bit funky currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Does the +1 to hit impact all units within 6 or just one?


Just one, selected within 6".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:29:21


"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
I take powerfist all the time on intercessor sargents. Probably still will. I would sometimes take a TH on a bike captain but now it kinda like...not even an an option. BA can still use it I suppose but a 20 point increase is nothing to 1 shot knights. Other marines can't do that though so it is a bad change. Yet another bad change in this codex. Seems like they are just nerfing everything that has been good for marines when they have in fact been one of the worst armies in the game. It's pretty absurd. This isn't how you make an army better.


Wait a tick. Other marines weren't doing it before. That's why BA were the only Smashcaps. So them not doing it still isn't some great loss. Nevertheless --

2 CP - unwoundable on 1,2, or 3

Generic WL Trait - Reroll any dice on charging, +1S +1A
Mastercrafted Weapon - +1D

RG Trait - no overwatch
WS trait - +D3 attacks on charge

WS doctrine - +1D on the charge

So, WS Smash Captain can:

- Run and charge
- +1A from AoD
- +1S & +1A OR +D3A
- +1D for relic
- +1D for charging on turn 3

He can be on a bike and be given jink for a 3++. He can tank a knight with Transhuman.

This makes a potential AP4 5 damage thunderhammer at S10 with 6 attacks.



   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
+1 to wound isn't that great. Because it has to be at the closest enemy and it activates at the start of the turn. +1 to hit is the best option IMO.


Given the timing, I agree, still not crappy, there will be situations where it's very useful. That being said, if it works like Dark Apostles, you'll have to pick and choose, at which point the +1 to hit is going to be the go to. Of course, I have some lists where I run multiple Dark Apostles, I suspect multiple Chaplains won't be that unusual.

The +1 to hit is very good, especially with abilities that trigger on a 6 to hit. This is going to be auto-include for most Marine lists I suspect and mandatory for IF lists.

The +2 to charge is interesting. Seems like it could have some potential with White Scars and Assault Doctrine, but the timing looks a bit funky currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Does the +1 to hit impact all units within 6 or just one?


Just one, selected within 6".
For the most part the on 6 procs in this codex are on unmodified rolls. It's still great for not killing yourself with plasma though and shooting flyers. +2 to charge isn't bad but the same issue is timing. +1 to hit just seems the best overall buff and it is the easiest to utilize.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:40:01


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Yeah I quite like that for dealing with flyers, especially as we can re roll all hit rolls now.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Xenomancers wrote:
For the most part the on 6 procs in this codex are on unmodified rolls. It's still great for not killing yourself with plasma though and shooting flyers.


Missed the unmodified part, that sucks. It's still going to be auto-include I suspect, Flawless Host sends their condolences regardless.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
 
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