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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How often has “the child takes over the franchise” worked? Just Christopher Tolkien?

And he never wrote those, he just edited his father's manuscripts

Pretty sure he “Brian Herberted” out the fuller texts found in the Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin, and probably many of the Lost Tales.

That he was plausibly “just cleaning up old manuscripts” for decades and producing unobjectionable material is an argument in his favor.

I think he had some more complete works to start with, that only needed a little polish, and some rougher gems. The content of the Silmarillion was fairly well fleshed out, and had been gone over by JRR more than once. Some of the other books were more collections on rough drafts. And it shows on reading.

I’d recommend the Silmarillion for someone wanting more of the LotR, but with a caveat that it’s a lot denser, and sometimes feels like reading a textbook. I would not recommend going further than that.

I give up on anything that goes behind a paywall.

I mean we get to pay for cable, then pay for internet, now they want us to basically pay for shows. This show is behind this paywall, that show is behind that paywall.....No.

You get what you pay for and if we keep paying for shows behind paywalls we'll get more shows behind paywalls.

And from what I've heard about STD and picard, I'm not missing much.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I give up on anything that goes behind a paywall.

I mean we get to pay for cable, then pay for internet, now they want us to basically pay for shows. This show is behind this paywall, that show is behind that paywall.....No.

You get what you pay for and if we keep paying for shows behind paywalls we'll get more shows behind paywalls.

And from what I've heard about STD and picard, I'm not missing much.

Agreed. The fastest way to get me to drop your series is to take it off a broad-based media provider like Netflix or Hulu and put it on your special snowflake service where it's literally the only thing there I'd WANT to watch.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I give up on anything that goes behind a paywall.

I mean we get to pay for cable, then pay for internet, now they want us to basically pay for shows. This show is behind this paywall, that show is behind that paywall.....No.

You get what you pay for and if we keep paying for shows behind paywalls we'll get more shows behind paywalls.

And from what I've heard about STD and picard, I'm not missing much.

Agreed. The fastest way to get me to drop your series is to take it off a broad-based media provider like Netflix or Hulu and put it on your special snowflake service where it's literally the only thing there I'd WANT to watch.

Amen brothers! Consumers always wanted Ala Carte Cable. Now we have it.

Careful what you wish for!

 Easy E wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I give up on anything that goes behind a paywall.

I mean we get to pay for cable, then pay for internet, now they want us to basically pay for shows. This show is behind this paywall, that show is behind that paywall.....No.

You get what you pay for and if we keep paying for shows behind paywalls we'll get more shows behind paywalls.

And from what I've heard about STD and picard, I'm not missing much.

Agreed. The fastest way to get me to drop your series is to take it off a broad-based media provider like Netflix or Hulu and put it on your special snowflake service where it's literally the only thing there I'd WANT to watch.

Amen brothers! Consumers always wanted Ala Carte Cable. Now we have it.

Careful what you wish for!

Not quite the same thing.

I would cheerfully have paid for a package of stuff like the various Discovery channels, SciFi, and the like. There were multiple shows on those channels I'd watch regularly. Likewise, now we have Hulu and Netflix with a wide variety of things I watch. That I'll pay for.

A lot of other channels might have ONE show I liked, but otherwise were full of garbage. Those could be discarded without me missing that one show. And that's what PayDisney or PayCBS is to me; that channel with one show and a lot of garbage. Pass.

Seems odd to throw a paywall in there when TV and films have always been behind a pay wall. UK side even our terrestrial free channels (even our "freeview") all require an annual sum to be paid (TV Licence).

So yeah moving pictures cost. They always have.

Now there's some services that are easier to accept, right now I've got Amazon Prime - I make enough orders that free shipping is worth it and I get "free" Tv along with that.


Otherwise the other option is to wait for shows to appear on terrestrial or Amazon for me or buy a DVD* (I'd rather buy a DVD than buy a show on Amazon - even though I long ago accepted buying games on steam without issues and its my default now).


*Also I can watch a DVD on any TV I buy just with a DVD player plugged in. Whilst if I get them on account services I've got to buy TV's above a certain threshold to support fancy features like accessing amazon and accounts. Granted those features are filtering steadily down into even budget brand units so eventually I'll likely "move with the times".

 Overread wrote:
Seems odd to throw a paywall in there when TV and films have always been behind a pay wall. UK side even our terrestrial free channels (even our "freeview") all require an annual sum to be paid (TV Licence).

So yeah moving pictures cost. They always have.

Now there's some services that are easier to accept, right now I've got Amazon Prime - I make enough orders that free shipping is worth it and I get "free" Tv along with that.


Otherwise the other option is to wait for shows to appear on terrestrial or Amazon for me or buy a DVD* (I'd rather buy a DVD than buy a show on Amazon - even though I long ago accepted buying games on steam without issues and its my default now).


*Also I can watch a DVD on any TV I buy just with a DVD player plugged in. Whilst if I get them on account services I've got to buy TV's above a certain threshold to support fancy features like accessing amazon and accounts. Granted those features are filtering steadily down into even budget brand units so eventually I'll likely "move with the times".

I mean, we've been going off a shared netflix and amazon prime subscription with a few old roommates of ours plus a google cast device for years. I pay a grand total of about 10$/mo for my moving pictures.85 for internet, obviously, but that's just an everyday necessity of modern life that's been commodified and monopolized so what are you gonna do.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How often has “the child takes over the franchise” worked? Just Christopher Tolkien?

I prefered the Dune prequals over the original novels.

Season 2 of Star Trek: Burnham badly damaged my interest in Trekie stuff, but Picard was ok

The Last Jedi was the Last Star Wars film I intend to waste time and money on unless radical changes happen - like a half way competent director, screenwirtter, writter etc.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:Pretty sure he “Brian Herberted” out the fuller texts found in the Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin, and probably many of the Lost Tales.

That he was plausibly “just cleaning up old manuscripts” for decades and producing unobjectionable material is an argument in his favor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How often has “the child takes over the franchise” worked? Just Christopher Tolkien?

And he never wrote those, he just edited his father's manuscripts

I believe many of his fathers original writing was very rough and note form. He's likely spent a lot of time making a story from basically detailed background material. So he's likely been having quite a lot of impact


That said a lot of the time when children try to take over their parents writing its hard because they aren't necessarily writers themselves. Furthermore even if they are good they are still novices stepping into an established pro's feet. That's a tall order for anyone to fill and very hard to achieve. Plus, like any series taken over by another; there's pressure to either not evolve anything and stick to the established tropes; or for fans to see any change as heresy to the original material. So your fanbase doesn't want you to change anything whilst at the same time wants to see new and fresh ideas - you can't win.

I think there's also a fan undercurrent that many children who take over their parents writing are doing so purely for the money and not much else. Ergo its like how the Simpsons is still going despite being past its prime; its because now its no longer a "story" its now an income. I think that even if there is no hint that this is happening it can be a thought that passes many a fan's mind.

 Overread wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:Pretty sure he “Brian Herberted” out the fuller texts found in the Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin, and probably many of the Lost Tales.

That he was plausibly “just cleaning up old manuscripts” for decades and producing unobjectionable material is an argument in his favor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How often has “the child takes over the franchise” worked? Just Christopher Tolkien?

And he never wrote those, he just edited his father's manuscripts

I believe many of his fathers original writing was very rough and note form. He's likely spent a lot of time making a story from basically detailed background material. So he's likely been having quite a lot of impact


That said a lot of the time when children try to take over their parents writing its hard because they aren't necessarily writers themselves. Furthermore even if they are good they are still novices stepping into an established pro's feet. That's a tall order for anyone to fill and very hard to achieve. Plus, like any series taken over by another; there's pressure to either not evolve anything and stick to the established tropes; or for fans to see any change as heresy to the original material. So your fanbase doesn't want you to change anything whilst at the same time wants to see new and fresh ideas - you can't win.

That's a false dichotomy. Not screwing up and getting things wrong is not the same as 'don't wan't to see change.' This was Brian's primary flaw. He got basic stuff factually wrong- he came off unfamiliar with his father's work and uncaring about the details.
And if sticking to tropes is all the original author had to offer, there isn't any point in continuing their work.

Also... shoes. Not feet.

 Overread wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:Pretty sure he “Brian Herberted” out the fuller texts found in the Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin, and probably many of the Lost Tales.

That he was plausibly “just cleaning up old manuscripts” for decades and producing unobjectionable material is an argument in his favor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How often has “the child takes over the franchise” worked? Just Christopher Tolkien?

And he never wrote those, he just edited his father's manuscripts

I believe many of his fathers original writing was very rough and note form. He's likely spent a lot of time making a story from basically detailed background material. So he's likely been having quite a lot of impact


That said a lot of the time when children try to take over their parents writing its hard because they aren't necessarily writers themselves. Furthermore even if they are good they are still novices stepping into an established pro's feet. That's a tall order for anyone to fill and very hard to achieve. Plus, like any series taken over by another; there's pressure to either not evolve anything and stick to the established tropes; or for fans to see any change as heresy to the original material. So your fanbase doesn't want you to change anything whilst at the same time wants to see new and fresh ideas - you can't win.

I think there's also a fan undercurrent that many children who take over their parents writing are doing so purely for the money and not much else. Ergo its like how the Simpsons is still going despite being past its prime; its because now its no longer a "story" its now an income. I think that even if there is no hint that this is happening it can be a thought that passes many a fan's mind.

Yeah, JD salinger's kids (one of which you can watch in an awful, terrible, 90s captain america movie adaptation, fun fact) are currently sifting through mountains and mountains of handwritten manuscripts that salinger left behind.

There is a quite literal ton of salinger's writings out there, in a form that means they likely wont see publishing for a good long while.

Good luck, Matthew and Margaret!

What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

I've never made it to the Sanderson books in WoT, I always get bogged down and quit reading before I get there. . . I've a buddy who is a diehard WoT fan, to the degree he can tell you how many buttons were on Lan's jacket in that one scene in the one book where he fights that obscure thing. . . And he admits that the tail end of the Jordan books really do bog down, and the first Sanderson book is a tad awkward, but the 2nd pair of books really take off as he'd gotten comfortable in Jordan's shoes. . . That's a buddy's take on it, I wouldnt know because I can't get that far


On this subject, I think we could also use comic book characters and comic runs in this same category. . . Although my experience of comics shows me that if you collect say, everything Batman, and suddenly a run starts that you absolutely hate, you'll make a note of the author, and then just avoid that author. . . We know there are some pretty spectacularly bad art choices in the comic industry (Rob Liefeld), but I've rarely encountered something that made someone actually follow through with the threat of giving up on a franchise/series.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

I think the difference there is that often they get passed to competent or at least experienced writers in their own right. Who already have their own novels and stories and have been through the mill a few times already. They aren't as overshadowed by their parents legacy and they've got their own legacy, fanbase and experiences to back them up. The novels they'd produce wouldn't be "first attempts" etc...

I've generally heard good things where this has happened.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

Not sure but I thought Lovecraft Robert E Howard and few others happily dipped into each others worlds in a way that is more difficult now due to franchise control?

Bit of an opposite post here, but The Clone Wars has really rehabilitated the prequel era of Star Wars for me.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

Not sure but I thought Lovecraft Robert E Howard and few others happily dipped into each others worlds in a way that is more difficult now due to franchise control?

I wouldn't say so- we just tend to be dismissive of authors who use other universes, or write in established settings. I'm sure you've heard 40k authors, or Battletech authors characterized as hacks, or not real writers. Admittedly, before the MCU, we had the awful Yuuzhan Vong saga written collectively by tons of authors. And if you hopped onto google you could find thousands of stories told in the Harry Potter universe- they just are classified as fan fiction.

It does still occur, generally with short story collections. David Weber does have a few anthologies in his Honorverse where other authors are allowed to take a crack at it.

There are a few short story anthologies in Keith Laumer's Boloverse and (I think) Larry Niven's Known Space as well.

Doesn’t George RR Martin have one with the Wildcards, too? And besides the Man-Kzin Wars, there were the War World books set in the Mote in God’s Eye universe.

Does anyone remember the Fleet series, where a group of writers set out to build a shared sandbox universe?

True and the Martian book/film is in the Expanse background

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
And besides the Man-Kzin Wars, there were the War World books set in the Mote in God’s Eye universe.

Oh man, I love both of those universes, it's been a while since I read anything from them though (aside from re-listening to the audiobooks of Mote and Gripping Hand recently).

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

Not sure but I thought Lovecraft Robert E Howard and few others happily dipped into each others worlds in a way that is more difficult now due to franchise control?

I wouldn't say so- we just tend to be dismissive of authors who use other universes, or write in established settings. I'm sure you've heard 40k authors, or Battletech authors characterized as hacks, or not real writers. Admittedly, before the MCU, we had the awful Yuuzhan Vong saga written collectively by tons of authors. And if you hopped onto google you could find thousands of stories told in the Harry Potter universe- they just are classified as fan fiction.

It does still occur, generally with short story collections. David Weber does have a few anthologies in his Honorverse where other authors are allowed to take a crack at it.

Actually it is a bit more difficult now. One of the basic concepts of copy write law is you have to defend your IP or you risk losing it. This BTW is why you occasionally hear stories of IP holders going after fan films and the like.
So, let's use Lovecraft as an example here, if he just let his buddies use his world etc without defending his IP, then I could go out and produce my own Cthlthu books (maybe even my own line of toys etc) and if he sued me he might find out he'd lost the rights to the stuff I used because he'd let Robert E Howard do it. Shared universes etc exist but there is always some IP deals, lisencing contracts etc. as opposed to just an email saying "hey dude, this idea from my book would be awesome in your book!"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What about franchises that don’t go to the kids, but to family friends? I’ve mostly heard good things about Brandon Sanderson’s books finishing the Wheel of Time story, for example. Lovecraft famously let all his friends and followers use his mythos, and a few who started out in his playground developed into great writers in their own respect.

Not sure but I thought Lovecraft Robert E Howard and few others happily dipped into each others worlds in a way that is more difficult now due to franchise control?

I mean, don't forget that in the sequel to one of the very first recorded novels (Quixote) the original author has a section where he has the hero find the author of a widely-circulated unofficial sequel to the original, hold him at swordpoint and admit that everything he wrote was a lie and not the actions of the true Don Quixote.

It's one of my favorite dunks in literary history.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
And besides the Man-Kzin Wars, there were the War World books set in the Mote in God’s Eye universe.

Oh man, I love both of those universes, it's been a while since I read anything from them though (aside from re-listening to the audiobooks of Mote and Gripping Hand recently).

Kzin are in the Trek Animated Series

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
And besides the Man-Kzin Wars, there were the War World books set in the Mote in God’s Eye universe.

Oh man, I love both of those universes, it's been a while since I read anything from them though (aside from re-listening to the audiobooks of Mote and Gripping Hand recently).

Kzin are in the Trek Animated Series

they're also name dropped in Picard.

Oh, man. I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and can't wait to introduce my children to them when they are old enough to stick with the plotlines. But books like the Silmarillion, or the Children of Hurin? Those seem like they should be awesome considering the timelines they deal with, but are like reading textbooks.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Oh, man. I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and can't wait to introduce my children to them when they are old enough to stick with the plotlines. But books like the Silmarillion, or the Children of Hurin? Those seem like they should be awesome considering the timelines they deal with, but are like reading textbooks.

More like the bible, a lot of "and so and so begat x who begat Ys" etc

BrianDavion wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Oh, man. I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and can't wait to introduce my children to them when they are old enough to stick with the plotlines. But books like the Silmarillion, or the Children of Hurin? Those seem like they should be awesome considering the timelines they deal with, but are like reading textbooks.

More like the bible, a lot of "and so and so begat x who begat Ys" etc

It took me 4 or 5 tries before I was able to read the Silmarillion thorough. Fully agree on the bible comparison. I felt like I needed to make note cards to keep everything straight. The other collected works were read with one finger marking my place in the endnotes, flipping back and forth.

It might be I’m odd. In college I accidentally picked up a minor in History. I had just taken so many random courses for fun on interesting topics, I just needed to write a colloquium to finish the program. The extended works are like that. It’s like taking a history course on Middle Earth. Sure, it’s a little thick. You have multiple viewpoints and version of some events. But it’s all fascinating. And it gives you so much more perspective on the present (that being the Hobbit/LotR).

On the topic of this thread, I can see why it’s the moment people give up on the franchise. Going from the finished works to the unfinished (even the semi-polished ones like the Sil) is like changing gears without the clutch. It’s like watching a movie based on historical events, and then grabbing an acedemic text on what happened. Not the same at all.