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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I don't really read either 40K novels or 1d4chan, both are full of childish hyperbole. But orks and tau can easily muster insane numbers against the handful that the Space Marines can field. If a tau Firewarrior could outshoot a marine one to one or an ork outfight him then the marines would be utterly and ludicrously useless.

*mumbles something about having to employ actual tactics to shoot the choppy and chop the shooty that other armies have to do to win*

 Crimson wrote:
If your really hard to produce and super numerically limited elite warrior cannot outshoot and outfight the dime in a dozen basic mook of the enemy then your super warriors are complete waste of resources.

Not if their strengths lie in attacking the enemy's weakness, and being given the mobility and support to do so. A smart superwarrior will fight a gunfight against someone who beats them with knives, and will try to turn a fight into a melee against someone who has greater firepower. But that's ... hard or something, idk.

Marine's aren't line troopers, sitting in a trench desperately trying to hold off waves of Orks or trading shots at extended range with the Tau. They're a highly mobile advanced fighting force designed to pressure the enemy's weakness until they break.

There is only so much than clever tactics can accomplish. If the enemy has tens or hundreds of times the numbers you're just busted. Besides, if you think such methods are such a force multiplier, then certainly it is still waste of time making marines? Just train your guardsmen that way and not they can take on twenty times their numbers of orks!

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well I mean, hell Boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago. Why not just go all the way up to 12 to 15ppm Ork boyz and give them 2 wounds each, probably want to give them good armor due to price, so lets make it 3+ save, And i can't really see them being useful at that price and armor without a good ranged weapon so what if we gave them a longer ranged shoota, say 24' S4 and make it Rapid fire instead of assault to balance it. Then we should probably increase their BS to 3+ to make the Boyz worth taking with their new longer ranged rapid fire bolt...i mean shoota. Probably want to redo "Kultures" to make them more in line with shooting...we could call them Kombat Doctrines.

But then Ork boyz would be competitive against Space Marine Tacs. I think this is a good idea.

Give me AP-1 choppas and +1A on the charge and you got a DEAL.

That would make orcs better then meq elites in melee, and orcs should never be stronger in melee then marines.

They kinda already are. They're A2 base and S4. They also hit the same.

 Crimson wrote:
There is only so much than clever tactics can accomplish. If the enemy has tens or hundreds of times the numbers you're just busted. Besides, if you think such methods are such a force multiplier, then certainly it is still waste of time making marines? Just train your guardsmen that way and not they can take on twenty times their numbers of orks!

Part of strategic mobility is that you don't fight tens or hundreds of times the numbers all at once, obviously.

And of course it's not a waste of time, because it's more than training. You have to train them, sure, but you also have to give them power armor (so they can operate in terrain and conditions inimical to human life), and genetic augmentation (so they can stay awake and aware during redeployments deep behind enemy lines, and have redundant organs and the like so that medical supplies don't run low in highly mobile logistically challenging operations), and you'd have to equip them with their own spaceships and armored vehicles so that they have the tactical and strategic flexibility to react on the fly to emergent threats. Lastly, you'd have to sever or drastically shorten their chain of command so they're not paralyzed by indecision and communications lagti-

wait no that's just Space Marines, and we've left the Imperial Guard behind.

One of the issues people seem to hit head on is that people view each model as an actual person or monster on the battlefield. A better way to view them would each individual representing the idea of a unit or group of warriors. In no battle field situation should a Space Marine lose to an Ork boy if we are going by fluff alone. But, if we view each Marine as a single Marine or 2 and view each Ork model as 10-20 boyz you can get the feeling from the fluff. So when that mob of 30 boyz kills 5 Marines it wasn't 30 boyz it was the equivalent fluff wise of 300 to 600.

Don't get caught up in the numbers, im not doing a 1 for 1 comparison I am just throwing the scenario into a different light.

The main takeaway though is that this game needs more balance and the 2 wounds for standard marines and 3 for termies, barring other major changes, will result in a game imbalance.

That doesn't work. Each model IS an individual. A captain isn't a flock of captains, a squad of 10 is a squad of 10.

We simply have too many hard numbers about how units are organized at every level, squads, platoons, companies, etc.
what you see is exactly what they are.

Voss, I am talking about in your imagination not on the board, in order to better perceive fluff on the game board and i literally said "Dont get caught up in the numbers" because i was just throwing them out as an idea.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Speculation over. All Marines 2W. (Tacticals are 18 points.)

Other factions get stat updates in October when the Codexes arrive.

Whelp. I don't even really know how to process that.

2W Noise Marines here we goooooooooooooo

So NOW we're getting the new edition. Got it.

 Asmodai wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Speculation over. All Marines 2W. (Tacticals are 18 points.)

Other factions get stat updates in October when the Codexes arrive.

Sort of. All same name weapons get stats updated in October, fusion gun or w/e - wait for codex. Chaos marines 2nd wound comes with a codex as well.

SemperMortis wrote:
Voss, I am talking about in your imagination not on the board, in order to better perceive fluff on the game board and i literally said "Dont get caught up in the numbers" because i was just throwing them out as an idea.

But the numbers are defined? I assumed you meant you weren't specifically trying to lock in a 2:1, 3:1 or whatever ratio.

But we know what squad sizes are. 'Better perceiving the fluff' is the numbers are exactly what they are. There is no number other than one that makes 10 squads of 10 yields a company of 100 (plus support).

Heck, GW battlereports used to give individual names for models. Not just sergeants, but I can remember whole squads of Brother So-and-so. And standout individuals often got names even when most of the squad didn't. Badrukk's squad was led by an ork nob named Badrukk, and he had 9 boyz, and Grinner was the -one- with the rokkit.


There's too much fluff and direct statements that one is one for 'one is just representative' to be viable.

 Crimson wrote:
There is only so much than clever tactics can accomplish. If the enemy has tens or hundreds of times the numbers you're just busted. Besides, if you think such methods are such a force multiplier, then certainly it is still waste of time making marines? Just train your guardsmen that way and not they can take on twenty times their numbers of orks!

Seriously?

Operation Gothic Serpent (AKA Black Hawk Down) pitted 160 US Army Rangers and Delta Force operators, with air support, against an estimated 2,000-4,000 Somali militants. That's a ratio of somewhere between 12.5:1 and 25:1. The final casualty count was 19 dead Americans and 1 captured, to 250-500 dead Somalis. There are similar examples from both World Wars of soldiers succeeding against overwhelming odds. Audie Murphy single-handedly held off an entire company of Germans for over an hour. In one incident on the Eastern Front, a German platoon held a frontage of an entire kilometer against a Soviet infantry division.

Training, tactics, and operational conditions count for a lot more than wargamers credit, and it's a classic and all-too-common mistake to focus almost exclusively on technology and equipment. Soft factors are the distinguishing characteristic between a team of special forces operators and a team of grunts, not super-weapons that give the former 5x the offensive firepower.

To more directly address your question, you used the phrase force multiplier, but then asked why bother using Marines- well, that's why it's a multiplier; its effectiveness is still contingent on what you started with. Both Navy SEALs and clerks with rifles are going to be more effective if used in a surprise ambush rather than in a pitched battle; but I'd still rather have the SEALs in the first place. You don't take random cooks and put them through BUD/S, you start with the best of the best and train those soldiers to be SEALs.

40K's problem in representing Marines is failing to model the advantages they have in the fluff- favorable employment conditions, extensive experience, tactical flexibility, high operational tempo, and constant seamless communication. On the tabletop they're no more mobile than Guardsmen, no quicker to react than Guardsmen, no easier to command than Guardsmen, and don't get scenarios that model their lightning-strike method of warfare, so of course they're not going to win a straight-up shooting fight against Guardsmen while highly outnumbered.

You could never fight Gothic Serpent in 40K without extensive rules changes, because there is no way to make a few dozen Scions win overwhelmingly against a few hundred Conscripts. The soft factors that let Rangers and Deltas run rings around untrained militants communicating solely by word of mouth just don't exist. Move over to Epic, and something like that becomes a lot more viable; the game actually models C&C, making a highly-trained elite force of Marines much more tactically mobile and coordinated than hordes of Orks, and suddenly they can win against superior numbers despite not having massively superior stats.

And that puts us in this awkward position of Marines needing to be buffed to absurd levels of firepower and resilience in order to hold their own, when the biggest things that make Marines special just aren't in the rules.

 Asmodai wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Speculation over. All Marines 2W. (Tacticals are 18 points.)

Other factions get stat updates in October when the Codexes arrive.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*cackles with glee*

 Asmodai wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Speculation over. All Marines 2W. (Tacticals are 18 points.)

Other factions get stat updates in October when the Codexes arrive.

Well... called it.

Now I'm just going to cry in my corner until they update nids.

At least they are upping the point costs on models, and 18 ppm for the new tacs seems fair.

"While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

....Welp, that's. Yep. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty much what I thought.

Spoletta wrote:

At least they are upping the point costs on models, and 18 ppm for the new tacs seems fair.

Yep - 2 points for 1A and 1AP, but way more flexible weapon options. CHOO CHOO!

Which means Intercessors pay just two points for the extra attack and significantly better gun. Tacticals can't even be cheaper meatshields for the gak Special and Heavy Weapon saturation they already had. Soooooo what's really the point in the unit?

Spoletta wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Speculation over. All Marines 2W. (Tacticals are 18 points.)

Other factions get stat updates in October when the Codexes arrive.

Well... called it.

Now I'm just going to cry in my corner until they update nids.

At least they are upping the point costs on models, and 18 ppm for the new tacs seems fair.

Just to clarify for this guy, other "Factions" aren't getting an update in October. Space Marine and other Imperial factions will be, and maybe Chaos too (thought that isn't confirmed) as they use the same units and weapons.

Xenos? They get updates when THEIR codex is released. So 2021 at the earliest, more likely 2022 or even 2023 for some.

So yeh, 9th edition is MarineHammer. All Marines, all the Time.

the_scotsman wrote:
"While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

....Welp, that's. Yep. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty much what I thought.

Yea, Xenos power swords and uhh...what else is shared with imperium?

the_scotsman wrote:
"While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

....Welp, that's. Yep. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty much what I thought.

Yeah it being rolled out to all same named weapons is good but yeah, seems a bit rough for everyone else. Lines up with expectations though.

It says "other genetically modified super soldiers" will be getting 2W in their future codexes. So the same old waiting game and "arms race". So nothing new. They could update those stats all at the same time as easily as the weapon stats.

Oh yeah, they could do it for Xenos too, I guess.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It says "other genetically modified super soldiers" will be getting 2W in their future codexes. So the same old waiting game and "arms race". So nothing new. They could update those stats all at the same time as easily as the weapon stats.

Oh yeah, they could do it for Xenos too, I guess.

Shh let the spike tax live on for now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means Intercessors pay just two points for the extra attack and significantly better gun. Tacticals can't even be cheaper meatshields for the gak Special and Heavy Weapon saturation they already had. Soooooo what's really the point in the unit?

Tacs with a ML = 105

Same durability, but more flexible. Tacs with plasma will mess Intercessors up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It says "other genetically modified super soldiers" will be getting 2W in their future codexes. So the same old waiting game and "arms race". So nothing new. They could update those stats all at the same time as easily as the weapon stats.

Oh yeah, they could do it for Xenos too, I guess.

It comes with a point adjustment, so, while I'd like to see it now the rest of the codex could quickly suffer if CSM become overwhelmingly useful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means Intercessors pay just two points for the extra attack and significantly better gun. Tacticals can't even be cheaper meatshields for the gak Special and Heavy Weapon saturation they already had. Soooooo what's really the point in the unit?

Tac Squads can do things OTHER than mow down GEQs and MEQs, that's what they're good for.

Well its better than I thought in that all same named weapons are getting an update but its disapoitning that some factions will likely to have to wait a year to get the upgrades.

At least Banshees and co might get the +1 Str Powerswords

Every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly

Yep, GW actually is that stupid, they are updating wounds and weapons codex by codex (except for weapons that are shared across codexes) instead of at the start of the edition as anyone with any sense of balance would do. Mind-bogglingly weird decision, presumably based on an judgment that they'll sell more by writing rules that encourage people to jump on the bandwagon with the new releases instead of sticking with their own underpowered factions while they wait for a codex.

I am really floored by this, honestly. Space Marines will go to 2W in October, whereas the Chaos variant won't for several months or even a year longer? Seriously? This takes the bolter discipline and hateful assault roll-out to new levels of absurdity. Space Marine weapons get supercharged in October, whereas (non-Necron) Xenos weapons will have to wait months or years to get their buff?

Downright bizarre. Especially since the result is even greater lethality in the meantime, as Space Marines will become even better at blowing everyone else off the table, without any corresponding buff to other factions' durability.

nekooni wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means Intercessors pay just two points for the extra attack and significantly better gun. Tacticals can't even be cheaper meatshields for the gak Special and Heavy Weapon saturation they already had. Soooooo what's really the point in the unit?

Tac Squads can do things OTHER than mow down GEQs and MEQs, that's what they're good for.

One weapon is not "mowing down" anything.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It says "other genetically modified super soldiers" will be getting 2W in their future codexes. So the same old waiting game and "arms race". So nothing new. They could update those stats all at the same time as easily as the weapon stats.

Oh yeah, they could do it for Xenos too, I guess.

It comes with a point adjustment, so, while I'd like to see it now the rest of the codex could quickly suffer if CSM become overwhelmingly useful.

So? After the lowly csm has suffered so long I say:

Let's give people a reason to use csm! Put away those cultists, daemon engines, possessed, and daemons! Let the Chaos Space Marines reign over their own codex as they should!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It says "other genetically modified super soldiers" will be getting 2W in their future codexes. So the same old waiting game and "arms race". So nothing new. They could update those stats all at the same time as easily as the weapon stats.

Oh yeah, they could do it for Xenos too, I guess.

It comes with a point adjustment, so, while I'd like to see it now the rest of the codex could quickly suffer if CSM become overwhelmingly useful.

So? After the lowly csm has suffered so long I say:

Let's give people a reason to use csm! Put away those cultists, daemon engines, possessed, and daemons! Let the Chaos Space Marines reign over their own codex as they should!

I kinda feel this way too. May be the necessary incentive to go for CSM after Necrons.