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 Argive wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If not, then whatever. Move on to Xenos armies.

Why would you dot hat to yourself..

I was gonna say... if the changes and abilities that GW give to chaos isn't enough for you, the last thing you want to do is get involved in the Xenos.

I have models that are likely older than you are, and they're the same sculpts being sold now. And the rules for them haven't been good in over a decade.

Then necron immortals get 2 wounds. Period.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I find it funny how people keep trying to use the Lore to justify tactical marines having 2W.
In the Lore Necrons are insanely resilient and hard to put down
Tau are expert sharp shooters
Orcs outnumber you like 1000 to 1
Tyranids will take the bodies of the fallen and turn them into better predators who won't make the same mistake twice

The lore is created to get you invested in the game and not as a way to determine what stats or rules model should have all factions have crazy broken lore and if GW started trying to adhere to that then the game would be hard as hell to balance

I can get behind GK, DW and elite marines having 2 W but not all old marines

Well people were complaining about Necrons being tough when 7.5th was a thing. Tau aren't really sharp shooters in the fluff so much as they just prefer range combat and are apt for it, and Orks are still a horde army, though not a great one.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I can get behind GK, DW and elite marines having 2 W but not all old marines

Considering GK have the lowest model count of all the SM armies, a standard of 2W models won't make them meta breaking...which is fine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I find it funny how people keep trying to use the Lore to justify tactical marines having 2W.
In the Lore Necrons are insanely resilient and hard to put down
Tau are expert sharp shooters
Orcs outnumber you like 1000 to 1
Tyranids will take the bodies of the fallen and turn them into better predators who won't make the same mistake twice

The lore is created to get you invested in the game and not as a way to determine what stats or rules model should have all factions have crazy broken lore and if GW started trying to adhere to that then the game would be hard as hell to balance

I can get behind GK, DW and elite marines having 2 W but not all old marines

Well people were complaining about Necrons being tough when 7.5th was a thing. Tau aren't really sharp shooters in the fluff so much as they just prefer range combat and are apt for it, and Orks are still a horde army, though not a great one.

Your missing my point though. If we start going by the fluff we'll have some really stupid lists. And I know your referencing the decurion which I admit was tough but as I said if we start going by fluff we'll never stop.

Pretty certain if we go by fluff marneus calgar has to strength to pick up pretty much any vehicle and swing it around like it weighs nothing or imotekh the storm lord will pretty much never lose a fight as in his fluff he had a fight with marshall helbrect and the Marshall got tired (yes a space marine got tired) as Imotekh regenerated any damage faster then he could inflict it

I would rather play a fair and balanced game then a game of who had the best fluff

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Assuming that the points we have now aren't going to change in the codex, and observing that a lot of troops weaker than tacs went up several points, could this mean that stuff like guardians, warriors, and sisters are also going to get a second wound? Or perhaps some other sort of defensive boost?

Points we have now are based on 8th edition codexes, with new book they should definitely change according to how things develop in the new codex. 1W 15ppm tacs makes sense comparing to many other troops like boyz, sisters, all aeldary ones, firewarriors, necron warriors, etc...

20 point intercessors and 5 point Guardsmen don't though.
These points arn't based on anything more than dumb luck and some idiots formula.

Guardsmen being 5 is the problem, not intercessors being 20 (those primaris are still undercosted!)

Guardsmen aren't inferior to Kabalite Warriors or ork Boyz so they should be 8-9 ppm. 5 ppm is the cost of a Gretchin: T2 6+, equipped with pistols, no clan bonus.

The reason there’s a perceived need for “something else” to differentiate elite units is really just an effect of the change to the AP system. Before, you could simply limit the classes of weapons that could reliably hurt a unit, now even a little bit of AP goes a long way. Toughness was a good way, but as was said on the first page a point of toughness rarely makes much of a difference.

Well I mean, hell Boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago. Why not just go all the way up to 12 to 15ppm Ork boyz and give them 2 wounds each, probably want to give them good armor due to price, so lets make it 3+ save, And i can't really see them being useful at that price and armor without a good ranged weapon so what if we gave them a longer ranged shoota, say 24' S4 and make it Rapid fire instead of assault to balance it. Then we should probably increase their BS to 3+ to make the Boyz worth taking with their new longer ranged rapid fire bolt...i mean shoota. Probably want to redo "Kultures" to make them more in line with shooting...we could call them Kombat Doctrines.

But then Ork boyz would be competitive against Space Marine Tacs. I think this is a good idea.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well I mean, hell Boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago. Why not just go all the way up to 12 to 15ppm Ork boyz and give them 2 wounds each, probably want to give them good armor due to price, so lets make it 3+ save, And i can't really see them being useful at that price and armor without a good ranged weapon so what if we gave them a longer ranged shoota, say 24' S4 and make it Rapid fire instead of assault to balance it. Then we should probably increase their BS to 3+ to make the Boyz worth taking with their new longer ranged rapid fire bolt...i mean shoota. Probably want to redo "Kultures" to make them more in line with shooting...we could call them Kombat Doctrines.

But then Ork boyz would be competitive against Space Marine Tacs. I think this is a good idea.

Give me AP-1 choppas and +1A on the charge and you got a DEAL.

Done

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well I mean, hell Boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago. Why not just go all the way up to 12 to 15ppm Ork boyz and give them 2 wounds each, probably want to give them good armor due to price, so lets make it 3+ save, And i can't really see them being useful at that price and armor without a good ranged weapon so what if we gave them a longer ranged shoota, say 24' S4 and make it Rapid fire instead of assault to balance it. Then we should probably increase their BS to 3+ to make the Boyz worth taking with their new longer ranged rapid fire bolt...i mean shoota. Probably want to redo "Kultures" to make them more in line with shooting...we could call them Kombat Doctrines.

But then Ork boyz would be competitive against Space Marine Tacs. I think this is a good idea.

Give me AP-1 choppas and +1A on the charge and you got a DEAL.

That would make orcs better then meq elites in melee, and orcs should never be stronger in melee then marines.

Karol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well I mean, hell Boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago. Why not just go all the way up to 12 to 15ppm Ork boyz and give them 2 wounds each, probably want to give them good armor due to price, so lets make it 3+ save, And i can't really see them being useful at that price and armor without a good ranged weapon so what if we gave them a longer ranged shoota, say 24' S4 and make it Rapid fire instead of assault to balance it. Then we should probably increase their BS to 3+ to make the Boyz worth taking with their new longer ranged rapid fire bolt...i mean shoota. Probably want to redo "Kultures" to make them more in line with shooting...we could call them Kombat Doctrines.

But then Ork boyz would be competitive against Space Marine Tacs. I think this is a good idea.

Give me AP-1 choppas and +1A on the charge and you got a DEAL.

That would make orcs better then meq elites in melee, and orcs should never be stronger in melee then marines.

Orks should me equal of marines in melee but win through being more numerous going by the fluff, going back a few years a choppa used to prevent any save being better than 4+, back in the days of the old AP system, that was a massive deal forcing terminators to use a 4+.

Karol wrote:
That would make orcs better then meq elites in melee, and orcs should never be stronger in melee then marines.

Karol, you are missing the joke. They are pushing for using the exact SM statline for an ork. Hence the 3+, Kombat doctrine, Astartes Chainchoppas, shock assault, ...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol wrote:
That would make orcs better then meq elites in melee, and orcs should never be stronger in melee then marines.

Karol, you are missing the joke. They are pushing for using the exact SM statline for an ork. Hence the 3+, Kombat doctrine, Astartes Chainchoppas, shock assault, ...

SHOKK ASSAULT WAAAAGH!

 Argive wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If not, then whatever. Move on to Xenos armies.

Why would you dot hat to yourself..

Maybe he likes hats with dots on them?

"An ork should never be better than a Marine in melee" is exactly the problem. It should work like this (just as examples):

The Eldar should be faster than the Marine.
The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.
The Ork should melee better than the Marine.
The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

But:
The Marine should be tougher than the Eldar.
The Marine should be faster than the Necron.
The Marine should shoot better than the Ork.
The Marine should melee better than the Tau.

the_scotsman wrote:
SHOKK ASSAULT WAAAAGH!

As mandated by the orkiest book ever written, the Kodex Orkastes!
(It's only pictures)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"An ork should never be better than a Marine in melee" is exactly the problem. It should work like this (just as examples):

The Eldar should be faster than the Marine.
The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.
The Ork should melee better than the Marine.
The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

But:
The Marine should be tougher than the Eldar.
The Marine should be faster than the Necron.
The Marine should shoot better than the Ork.
The Marine should melee better than the Tau.

This sums it up nicely, kind of skirts past the point of multiple bodies potentially but if it were a very basic 1-2-1 comparison it's spot on,

Wounds going up across the board would make for some really really interesting games. it would definitely have to be done very carefully, and there would be definite winners and losers (as always) but in the lieu of aos would massively decrease lethality and make the game more fun.

Maybe it could be a game wide faq upon the cron/marine dex drop day? From what it seems lots of things from both are going up in wounds so maybe they would change everything in one fell swoop.

Or they would do what usually happens and have the armies with codexes just be far better than ones without. We'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"An ork should never be better than a Marine in melee" is exactly the problem. It should work like this (just as examples):

The Eldar should be faster than the Marine.
The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.
The Ork should melee better than the Marine.
The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

But:
The Marine should be tougher than the Eldar.
The Marine should be faster than the Necron.
The Marine should shoot better than the Ork.
The Marine should melee better than the Tau.

This sums it up nicely, kind of skirts past the point of multiple bodies potentially but if it were a very basic 1-2-1 comparison it's spot on,

Exactly. and this is where we run into the problem of OPness, because 9th looves flexibility.

I don't think the problem is flexibility, I think it's that:

The (Primaris) Space Marine outshoots all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outfights all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outlasts all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outruns all of them.

(though for the last one you have to use an Impulsor and disembark after the move )

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't think the problem is flexibility, I think it's that:

The (Primaris) Space Marine outshoots all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outfights all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outlasts all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outruns all of them.

(though for the last one you have to use an Impulsor and disembark after the move )

Whilst not being outnumbered enough that table presence is an issue.

Dudeface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't think the problem is flexibility, I think it's that:

The (Primaris) Space Marine outshoots all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outfights all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outlasts all of them.
The (Primaris) Space Marine outruns all of them.

(though for the last one you have to use an Impulsor and disembark after the move )

Whilst not being outnumbered enough that table presence is an issue.

I mean, whatever. You could outnumber an aggressor squad 90 models to 10, and the only reason the Aggressors couldn't wipe out the 90 models in a single shooting phase is that you can't target multiple units efficiently in modern 40k.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"An ork should never be better than a Marine in melee" is exactly the problem. It should work like this (just as examples):

The Eldar should be faster than the Marine.

And they are.

The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.

Maybe. Immortals should. Not sure about the basic warriors.

The Ork should melee better than the Marine.

Strong nope. Orks are good in melee, but a single ork shouldn't come even close to a marine in the melee power. Orks fight as hordes, marines are rare elites.

The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

Nope again. A basic tau is a feeble guardsman with a decent gun and they're a dime in a dozen.

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"An ork should never be better than a Marine in melee" is exactly the problem. It should work like this (just as examples):

The Eldar should be faster than the Marine.

And they are.

The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.

Maybe. Immortals should. Not sure about the basic warriors.

The Ork should melee better than the Marine.

Strong nope. Orks are good in melee, but a single ork shouldn't come even close to a marine in the melee power. Orks fight as hordes, marines are rare elites.

The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

Nope again. A basic tau is a feeble guardsman with a decent gun and they're a dime in a dozen.

My opinion disagrees with your opinion on the lore surrounding Marines. We've probably read different novels and 1d4chan articles. Let's fight for seven more pages and derail the entire thread. GO!

(or you could make a point that doesn't rely on subjectivity). Because game balance wise, that's a good way to make Marines generalists. They lose to the specialists in the specialist's arena, and beat the specialists outside said situation.

 Crimson wrote:

The Necron should be tougher than the Marine.

Maybe. Immortals should. Not sure about the basic warriors.

Basic warriors used to. But the models back then where quite bulky.

 Crimson wrote:

The Ork should melee better than the Marine.

Strong nope. Orks are good in melee, but a single ork shouldn't come even close to a marine in the melee power. Orks fight as hordes, marines are rare elites.

Point for point they should. [edit]If the single ork is a nob they definitely should, maybe better than marine veterans.[/edit]

 Crimson wrote:

The Tau should shoot better than the Marine.

Nope again. A basic tau is a feeble guardsman with a decent gun and they're a dime in a dozen.

Point for point they should. [edit]And the guns should be better[/edit]

 Crimson wrote:

Strong nope. Orks are good in melee, but a single ork shouldn't come even close to a marine in the melee power. Orks fight as hordes, marines are rare elites.

Why?
Admittedly I dropped out during 7th, but I'm fairly certain that an Ork Slugga has outperformed a Marine in melee combat in every edition of the game thus far.

Marines have pretty consistently been A1(2) S4 up until Primaris
Sluggas have experienced significant change but:
3rd- A3(4) S3, Waaagh and Choppa
4th- A3(4) S3(4)
8th- A3(4 in a horde) S4

In every instance, the Ork delivers more damage on an individual basis, without considering the numbers advantage.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

My opinion disagrees with your opinion on the lore surrounding Marines. We've probably read different novels and 1d4chan articles. Let's fight for seven more pages and derail the entire thread. GO!

(or you could make a point that doesn't rely on subjectivity)

I don't really read either 40K novels or 1d4chan, both are full of childish hyperbole. But orks and tau can easily muster insane numbers against the handful that the Space Marines can field. If a tau Firewarrior could outshoot a marine one to one or an ork outfight him then the marines would be utterly and ludicrously useless. If your really hard to produce and super numerically limited elite warrior cannot outshoot and outfight the dime in a dozen basic mook of the enemy then your super warriors are complete waste of resources.

This BTW is also why I feel that Aspect Warriors should have a lot stronger rules than they have now. They are rare elites of an already rare dying race so they must be able to take on numerically superior foes or they really serve no purpose.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't really read either 40K novels or 1d4chan, both are full of childish hyperbole. But orks and tau can easily muster insane numbers against the handful that the Space Marines can field. If a tau Firewarrior could outshoot a marine one to one or an ork outfight him then the marines would be utterly and ludicrously useless.

*mumbles something about having to employ actual tactics to shoot the choppy and chop the shooty that other armies have to do to win*

 Crimson wrote:
If your really hard to produce and super numerically limited elite warrior cannot outshoot and outfight the dime in a dozen basic mook of the enemy then your super warriors are complete waste of resources.

Not if their strengths lie in attacking the enemy's weakness, and being given the mobility and support to do so. A smart superwarrior will fight a gunfight against someone who beats them with knives, and will try to turn a fight into a melee against someone who has greater firepower. But that's ... hard or something, idk.

Marine's aren't line troopers, sitting in a trench desperately trying to hold off waves of Orks or trading shots at extended range with the Tau. They're a highly mobile advanced fighting force designed to pressure the enemy's weakness until they break.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Basic warriors used to. But the models back then where quite bulky.

I think the idea of the Necron Warrior has kinda morphed over the years. They're really not invincible terminator-like super robots any more (Immortals are that,) they're more like undead legionaries (a scifi version of the skeleton warriors etc.)

Point for point they should.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. Both Orks and Tau can field much larger numbers than the Marines. But this was about one to one comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Strong nope. Orks are good in melee, but a single ork shouldn't come even close to a marine in the melee power. Orks fight as hordes, marines are rare elites.

Why?
Admittedly I dropped out during 7th, but I'm fairly certain that an Ork Slugga has outperformed a Marine in melee combat in every edition of the game thus far.

Marines have pretty consistently been A1(2) S4 up until Primaris
Sluggas have experienced significant change but:
3rd- A3(4) S3, Waaagh and Choppa
4th- A3(4) S3(4)
8th- A3(4 in a horde) S4

In every instance, the Ork delivers more damage on an individual basis, without considering the numbers advantage.

And finally that nonsense has been fixed!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its not a bad thing IF they apply this quickly to all factions.

Having to wait a year a more for "everyone" to get their upgrade would be beyond stupid.

More and more looks like they should have done new Index books given the compelte disaster the revised points has been and IF loads of weapons and models are changing stats it only makes it worse.

Never happen though it will take 3 years to update all the codexes and by then they will want to redo SM again. GW need to make the leap to digital releases that can be updated en mass as the primary source of rules rather than trying to work round print media but a desire to constantly update the game