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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Personally I think the modern codexes are kind of sad, with essentially no lore content compared to how things were decades ago - and often a relatively poor increase in art and photos.

It's the worst part of 3rd edition they've brought forward for sure.

Implying the overall quality of a current hardback codex with ~130-200 multi-colored pages, high quality artwork (you might not like the art direction, but that is a personal taste) is the same as those ~50 pages black/white booklets is a bit dishonest, innit?

Conversion ideas are missing as well as properly fleshed out lore sections for units. But the rest of a current codex is - quality wise - way higher than back then.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 13:42:09


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

ccs wrote:
No. The point is that GW knows better than all you armchair CEO geniuses wether or not giving stuff away for free suits its needs/plans.


Turns out previous management didn't know to sell us the stuff we wanted to buy. The current 'revolution' involves selling a lot more of the stuff we ask for. Who knew?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gert wrote:
I feel like the number of books needed is an issue for long-time hobbyists more than anyone else.
A lot of the people I used to play with (myself included) had quite a few armies, I think the average was 4 IIRC. As time has gone on though, those that are left have condensed themselves down quite a bit since buying 4 Codexes each edition was just not worth it. Someone who is newer to the hobby might only have one army for a whole Edition. Wish I could go back to such simpler times.


Nah, it's a massive burden for new players trying to get in. I deal with a ton of new folks, everybody is INCREDIBLY unhappy about the fact that you need like 4 books to play (GT Pack, rules, typically the Space Marine codex and a Supplement)

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Do you really "need" the GT pack? What does it actually do?
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Let's you play the same rules your area's established playgroup are going to insist on playing, judging by the experience of most 40k players I've talked to/seen posting on Dakkadakka/reddit.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

a_typical_hero wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Personally I think the modern codexes are kind of sad, with essentially no lore content compared to how things were decades ago - and often a relatively poor increase in art and photos.

It's the worst part of 3rd edition they've brought forward for sure.

Implying the overall quality of a current hardback codex with 200+ multi-colored pages, high quality artwork (you might not like the art direction, but that is a personal taste) is the same as those 50 pages black/white booklets is a bit dishonest, innit?

Conversion ideas are missing as well as properly fleshed out lore sections for units. But the rest of a current codex is - quality wise - way higher than back then.

I was specifically refering to the massive stripping back of lore and unit entries, not implying the books are somehow low quality. And outside of Codex Space Marines how many books are actually 200+ pages?
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Tyel wrote:
Its generally not good business to give stuff away for free if customers are happy paying for it. Whether you think those people paying for it are cultists, drones, or whatever doesn't change that fact. Its possible people will turn round and spend that money on more miniatures - but they may not.


It works well for much smaller companies with much tighter profit margins than GW


But equally, I've often found games with free rules kind of complicated because as a new player you don't know where to start.


Ironic.


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

The_Real_Chris wrote:
ccs wrote:
No. The point is that GW knows better than all you armchair CEO geniuses wether or not giving stuff away for free suits its needs/plans.


Turns out previous management didn't know to sell us the stuff we wanted to buy. The current 'revolution' involves selling a lot more of the stuff we ask for. Who knew?

GW's production capacity is also much greater now which is part of the readon they can churn out releases faster now.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was specifically refering to the massive stripping back of lore and unit entries, not implying the books are somehow low quality. And outside of Codex Space Marines how many books are actually 200+ pages?
I see, I misunderstood your post then. Sorry! Seems most non Marines hover around ~130 pages. I'll edit my initial reply to better represent reality.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






Tyel wrote:
Personally I think the modern codexes are kind of sad, with essentially no lore content compared to how things were decades ago - and often a relatively poor increase in art and photos.

That really cannot be said of the 9th edition Necrons codex, it is stupidly full of new glorious art, 3rd was good, but black and white and rather short. It's 120 pages, it could use another 20, split the unit lore into its own section with a page for each unit's art/fluff and shove the unit portraits of the models into the model gallery section, keep the datasheets clean, 10 last pages of hobby stuff like terrain would make it perfect. The Crusade section is in exactly the wrong place, but that's the only major criticism of the codex I have outside of rules and not having all of a sub-faction's rules, relics, strats together in one place like Thousand Sons has. Best of all would be the ability to take the rules without having to carry the fluff.

The cardinal sin of not assigning different points costs to S+1 AP-3 D1 and S+2 AP-4 D2 is the only thing that has kept me from saying it's the best Necron codex yet.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gert wrote:
Do you really "need" the GT pack? What does it actually do?


it is absolutely the first book that most of the players in my group tend to recommend new players get, as it has all the mission info and...IIRC the newest point costs??? I dont buy it i just use battlescribe and make up missions so, couldnt tell ya.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ordana wrote:
Which is why you put the rules online for free without background and pretty pictures and then sell hardcore books with background and pretty pictures for those who want them.

Lower barrier of entry into the game/armies but still sell books to the collectors.


I could see that working. With all the media they have now it should make it easier to recover costs through more players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
It works well for much smaller companies with much tighter profit margins than GW


Tighter margins, no brick and mortar, magazine, social media, probably outsourced manufacturing, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 14:50:28


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

 Blackie wrote:
 dreadblade wrote:


I just think that GW's gradual release schedule results in separate, focused marketing for each faction - a codex, new models, warhammer community articles etc. I personally buy the codex for models I like first to read the lore and learn about the units before buying the models.


Really? You can find all the lore, detailed reviews and pictures you want for free on the internet, without even relying on piracy.


I think you're missing my point. If everything dropped at the same time, people would buy the stuff for their existing armies and that's it. This way, the marketing for each faction is staggered, so people might try new armies when they haven't just spent all their money on their existing army.

As an example, I just bought Hexfire and the GK/TS codexes. I've not bought anything since the SM codex dropped, and it'll probably be another 6 months or more until the CK codex drops. I probably wouldn't have if I'd just bought the codexes for my existing armies, but these are factions I've wanted to get into for a while now, and the new models and codexes dropped at just the right time for me to be interested.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 15:34:51


https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/
Chaos Knights - Ultramarines - Thousand Sons - Grey Knights 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Staggering releases just creates a constant flow of things to talk about the game. I think it is as simple as that.

The death of a (nerdy) game is stagnation. I can't remember which topic it was, but just a few days ago somebody here wrote that Titanicus is unsupported already, because the last release was 2-3 months ago or something like that.

A buzzing community attracts new people.
A silent one, won't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 15:10:15


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 vict0988 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Personally I think the modern codexes are kind of sad, with essentially no lore content compared to how things were decades ago - and often a relatively poor increase in art and photos.

That really cannot be said of the 9th edition Necrons codex, it is stupidly full of new glorious art, 3rd was good, but black and white and rather short. It's 120 pages, it could use another 20, split the unit lore into its own section with a page for each unit's art/fluff and shove the unit portraits of the models into the model gallery section, keep the datasheets clean, 10 last pages of hobby stuff like terrain would make it perfect. The Crusade section is in exactly the wrong place, but that's the only major criticism of the codex I have outside of rules and not having all of a sub-faction's rules, relics, strats together in one place like Thousand Sons has. Best of all would be the ability to take the rules without having to carry the fluff.

The cardinal sin of not assigning different points costs to S+1 AP-3 D1 and S+2 AP-4 D2 is the only thing that has kept me from saying it's the best Necron codex yet.

Quick question on the Necron book, vict - does it include painted examples of the paint schemes for the Dynasties with sub-faction rules?

I'm looking at planning my own scheme, and want to make sure I don't tread on any official toes

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





a_typical_hero wrote:
Staggering releases just creates a constant flow of things to talk about the game. I think it is as simple as that.

The death of a (nerdy) game is stagnation. I can't remember which topic it was, but just a few days ago somebody here wrote that Titanicus is unsupported already, because the last release was 2-3 months ago or something like that.

A buzzing community attracts new people.
A silent one, won't.


Right?

Same with with Aeronautica, but lo and behold - a new box announced today and Titanicus is back in stock.

   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Dysartes wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Personally I think the modern codexes are kind of sad, with essentially no lore content compared to how things were decades ago - and often a relatively poor increase in art and photos.

That really cannot be said of the 9th edition Necrons codex, it is stupidly full of new glorious art, 3rd was good, but black and white and rather short. It's 120 pages, it could use another 20, split the unit lore into its own section with a page for each unit's art/fluff and shove the unit portraits of the models into the model gallery section, keep the datasheets clean, 10 last pages of hobby stuff like terrain would make it perfect. The Crusade section is in exactly the wrong place, but that's the only major criticism of the codex I have outside of rules and not having all of a sub-faction's rules, relics, strats together in one place like Thousand Sons has. Best of all would be the ability to take the rules without having to carry the fluff.

The cardinal sin of not assigning different points costs to S+1 AP-3 D1 and S+2 AP-4 D2 is the only thing that has kept me from saying it's the best Necron codex yet.

Quick question on the Necron book, vict - does it include painted examples of the paint schemes for the Dynasties with sub-faction rules?

I'm looking at planning my own scheme, and want to make sure I don't tread on any official toes

Yeah, but it's not perfect. I remember having to dig through old White Dwarf issues to find the right colour for Mephrit. The canon dynasties can also be kind of weird where they switch it up from one unit type to another, so I've had to come up with what I think some of the units would look like, with Ultramarines you can pretty easily be canon-compliant, but I figure if you're just trying to be unique it won't be hard.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Aye, it's more about figuring out the obvious combinations to avoid than anything else.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






a_typical_hero wrote:
Staggering releases just creates a constant flow of things to talk about the game. I think it is as simple as that.

The death of a (nerdy) game is stagnation. I can't remember which topic it was, but just a few days ago somebody here wrote that Titanicus is unsupported already, because the last release was 2-3 months ago or something like that.

A buzzing community attracts new people.
A silent one, won't.


yep, and its almost like it creates basically 100% of the imbalance and negative player experiences and sloppy feeling that everyone always whinges on and on and on about endlessly!

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




a_typical_hero wrote:
Nah, you are just being needlessly semantic here. In the spirit of the topic being discussed, Blackie obviously meant that "90%+ of the units" can be played from the codex without automatically losing you the game. The remaining 10% is stuff like SM Servitors, Fortifications, Dhrukari Beast squads and so on.


Well I'd disagree with that, then. There are codexes where you have to go suss out a specific build to make them playable on an even footing with everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
Clearly GW doesn't agree with you on giving away the rules for free. And it seems to be working for them, so I'm inclined to think they know how to run their business better than you do.


People thought that about the American auto industry for a long time.

GW is doing well because of inertia. There are other better games with better monetization schemes, but GW is close to "too big to fail" (at least within the minis gaming space). It isn't helped by the fact that the influx of consensus-minded people into the gaming space over the last ten years or so has dramatically increased the amount of "gamers" who see GW's ubiquity and gakky corporate attitude as plusses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 17:36:20


 
   
Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





a_typical_hero wrote:
Staggering releases just creates a constant flow of things to talk about the game. I think it is as simple as that.

The death of a (nerdy) game is stagnation. I can't remember which topic it was, but just a few days ago somebody here wrote that Titanicus is unsupported already, because the last release was 2-3 months ago or something like that.

A buzzing community attracts new people.
A silent one, won't.


A contrary argument is that constant additions, supplements, and tweaks (ex. points) to a game system (i.e. "support") followed by routine "restarts" to a new edition of the game results in player dissatisfaction and disgruntlement (and a lot of wasted printed paper/books), no matter how cool those new models may look.

Another example from GW's specialty games: look at Blood Bowl which did not have new releases or support for many years. The rules were kept alive by the community and only received minor tweaks as part of a Living Ruleset. Models were supported by third parties for many years. As a testament to the quality of the game's rules, the game was still pretty popular with a lot of community support and a good organized tournament community (the "NAF"). GW has since decided to release two new editions of the game in the past five years after not touching it for more than a decade, with changes often driven by what teams are currently sold by GW and what models are in a box versus the time-tested team rosters that had been tweaked by the community many years before. All of the rules, supplements, and cards produced just five years ago for the "2016" GW version are now mostly unusable with the changes to the current "2020" ruleset. While I admit that new official releases do create more buzz and attract new players, there is a risk to older players that do not want to participate in the GW merry-go-round of rules revisions and new editions and eventually decide to get off. I have been fine with most of GW's recent changes to Blood Bowl, having learned not to buy into their supplements, extra cards, etc., but if GW ever decided to do a complete refresh of the rules (ala 2nd to 3rd edition or 7th to 8th edition 40k), I would bet that most of the BB community would be up in arms and likely go back to the living ruleset.

Regarding 40k, I get it; this is GW's established business model. It makes them a lot of money. It does not make for a better ruleset or game experience for the end user. Personally, I would prefer that GW focus on updating older models across all factions' model ranges (ex. update all of the finecast models) instead of constantly releasing new supplements and datasheets simply because one new space marine model type has a different type of armor or gun. But as long as GW continues to make money hand over fist, this business model will continue . . .

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 18:07:28


Apocalypse/40K: Orks, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons, Dark Eldar
AOS: Stormcast, Sons of Behemat (Mantic and D&D giants)
Blood Bowl: Orcs, Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Undead, Wood/Pro Elves, Humans, Skaven, Goblins, Dwarves, Necromantic, Khemri, Snotlings, Underworld, Vampires, Lizardmen, Chaos, Amazons, Ogres, Halflings 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I would say 5 years for an edition is pretty good, especially a smaller scale one like BB.
As for the pre-2016 crowd, was it drawing in new players, or was it mainly the same crowd of original players? I knew it was a thing that existed like the other specialist games but I never really saw a lot about it at the time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Gert wrote:
I would say 5 years for an edition is pretty good, especially a smaller scale one like BB.
As for the pre-2016 crowd, was it drawing in new players, or was it mainly the same crowd of original players? I knew it was a thing that existed like the other specialist games but I never really saw a lot about it at the time.


Yeah. Quite a thriving club and tourney scene with the last pre relaunch world cup in Italy having over a thousand players in attendance.
   
Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I would say 5 years for an edition is pretty good, especially a smaller scale one like BB.
As for the pre-2016 crowd, was it drawing in new players, or was it mainly the same crowd of original players? I knew it was a thing that existed like the other specialist games but I never really saw a lot about it at the time.


Yeah. Quite a thriving club and tourney scene with the last pre relaunch world cup in Italy having over a thousand players in attendance.


Prior to the 2016 GW release I saw quite a few new players each year picking up the game and attending tournaments. Of course a new official box set release does help bring in even more new players, but I still question whether some of the changes in the new editions were really necessary and simply driven by GW's goal of selling new models, taking back a slice of the market that 3rd parties had assumed during the 10+ years where GW did not support the game, and selling more rulebooks, supplements, cards, etc.

As examples, since GW's return to Blood Bowl a few of the teams have had their players' skills changed/added to match features included on some models (ex. Skaven Gutter Runners getting a "weeping dagger" skill for no reason other than the new GW models carried daggers; this was added in 2016 and thankfully removed in 2020), some teams have had lineup changes to match the contents of box sets (ex. Underworld losing a blitzer and gaining a gutter runner to match the current skaven team sprue), and some teams have had entirely new models added to replace older models (ex. Necromantic team's Wights being changed to Wraiths; completely different models with different stats and skills - Wraiths have no hands and can't even pick up the ball in the game while the old Wights were great ball-carriers - revisions that significantly impact how the team plays). Completely unnecessary changes to the game in my opinion, but all of these changes were made based on GW's models in their current team box sets. Kind of like 40k's new Death Guard weapon options in their latest codex, where a squad's weapon options are defined by what weapons are available on the sprues in the current unit box set.

As to whether a new edition every 5 years or so is good or bad, with a ruleset like Blood Bowl where the rules have pretty much been the same since the 3rd edition in the early 90's I feel a cycle of new editions is completely unnecessary and is strictly another GW rules cash grab. The 2016 GW edition was not so bad as it was primarily based on the previous Living Ruleset and the teams rosters were relatively unchanged, but with Blood Bowl 2020 GW has shown that they are willing to make some more significant changes to the rules (good or bad . . .). I fear what will come in BB 2024, 2028, etc. simply because GW wants to create yet another edition solely to print more money and not necessarily improve the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 19:07:06


Apocalypse/40K: Orks, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons, Dark Eldar
AOS: Stormcast, Sons of Behemat (Mantic and D&D giants)
Blood Bowl: Orcs, Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Undead, Wood/Pro Elves, Humans, Skaven, Goblins, Dwarves, Necromantic, Khemri, Snotlings, Underworld, Vampires, Lizardmen, Chaos, Amazons, Ogres, Halflings 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Daedalus81 wrote:


Tighter margins, no brick and mortar, magazine, social media, probably outsourced manufacturing, etc.


GW has those things because they can afford them. If they didn't they'd cut them like the last few years of 7th when they cut loads of staff and closed stores. If Wyrd can afford can afford to put out free rules and still develop new games, produces podcasts etc I'm sure GW can take a small hit on their currently huge to foster the community and raise the morale in the fanbase.

They won't, because they're a soulless corporate entity, but they could.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Tighter margins, no brick and mortar, magazine, social media, probably outsourced manufacturing, etc.


GW has those things because they can afford them. If they didn't they'd cut them like the last few years of 7th when they cut loads of staff and closed stores. If Wyrd can afford can afford to put out free rules and still develop new games, produces podcasts etc I'm sure GW can take a small hit on their currently huge to foster the community and raise the morale in the fanbase.

They won't, because they're a soulless corporate entity, but they could.


Judging by the fact that GW puts out more books than models, why would they give up printing books that makes up a huge percentage of their profit? It's not a 'small' hit at all, but a part of that is how they've dug themselves into this hole.

When the big ramping up of product releases started in 7th edition, with campaign books and codexes galore, they tasted the sweet sweet profits that came from just giving an army a codex without needing to update models and its all gone downhill. Now we're getting more campaign books than ever, battletomes and codexes are coming out as fast as they can print them, they release chapter approved and generals handbooks as often as they can, and then they have the 'must-have' rules in White Dwarf to keep those moving as well (to the point now they're starting to add transfer sheets to White Dwarf to make it even more tempting). As more and more side games come out, those side games have tons of rulebooks too. Kill Team, Aeronautica, Titanicus, all of these games end up with TONS of books, because each little model or update requires 1 page of rules and 60 pages of fluff for a 50 dollar price tag.

If they wanted to move to free rules and digital rules and such, they would have done so a decade ago. Someone years ago made the decision to print more books, and that's exactly what they've been doing.

Tough to say what the actual numbers are, but it's not as small a slice as you might think.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Tighter margins, no brick and mortar, magazine, social media, probably outsourced manufacturing, etc.


GW has those things because they can afford them. If they didn't they'd cut them like the last few years of 7th when they cut loads of staff and closed stores. If Wyrd can afford can afford to put out free rules and still develop new games, produces podcasts etc I'm sure GW can take a small hit on their currently huge to foster the community and raise the morale in the fanbase.

They won't, because they're a soulless corporate entity, but they could.


GW has those things, because the community wanted them and/or they help drive sales.

As I noted earlier their dividend dropped considerably and that dividend is "truly surplus cash". People underestimate how easily things shift especially with the COVID disruptions.

Wyrd has no more than 50 employees. GW has over 2,000. The webstores aren't even comparable which comes with a lot of extra cost for specialized software engineers, cloud services, and so on. And they have to have a lot of extra management to deal with the warehousing in the US. Benefits, payroll, HR. It's all orders of magnitude more complicated - not soulless.

   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Tighter margins, no brick and mortar, magazine, social media, probably outsourced manufacturing, etc.


GW has those things because they can afford them. If they didn't they'd cut them like the last few years of 7th when they cut loads of staff and closed stores. If Wyrd can afford can afford to put out free rules and still develop new games, produces podcasts etc I'm sure GW can take a small hit on their currently huge to foster the community and raise the morale in the fanbase.

They won't, because they're a soulless corporate entity, but they could.


GW has those things, because the community wanted them and/or they help drive sales.

As I noted earlier their dividend dropped considerably and that dividend is "truly surplus cash". People underestimate how easily things shift especially with the COVID disruptions.

Wyrd has no more than 50 employees. GW has over 2,000. The webstores aren't even comparable which comes with a lot of extra cost for specialized software engineers, cloud services, and so on. And they have to have a lot of extra management to deal with the warehousing in the US. Benefits, payroll, HR. It's all orders of magnitude more complicated - not soulless.


It's silly to defend GW for these things though when you look at their gross margins, which are higher/comparable to Apple's. They don't *have* pay out large dividends, they choose to do that. And compare their margin to other players in their space; Hasbro, for instance.

I agree, it's complicated and not soulless, but GW 100% could take a small hit, especially if it benefited them going forward. I don't think they'll be able to sell expensive, short lived, erroneous books into perpetuity.

ETA: The Hasbro example is bad, they also have large gross margins. Ignore that point, I don't think it changes the argument too much.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 20:59:16


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

It's silly to defend GW for these things though when you look at their gross margins, which are higher/comparable to Apple's. They don't *have* pay out large dividends, they choose to do that. And compare their margin to other players in their space; Hasbro, for instance.

I agree, it's complicated and not soulless, but GW 100% could take a small hit, especially if it benefited them going forward. I don't think they'll be able to sell expensive, short lived, erroneous books into perpetuity.


Margins are only that high if you're looking at pandemic sales though, which mostly went through the website - their highest margin outlet.

I do think change is possible though - Ordana's point seems most likely to happen.


ETA: The Hasbro example is bad, they also have large gross margins. Ignore that point, I don't think it changes the argument too much


Same problem as above. Hasbro covid margin is huuuge, because everyone ordered MtG all pandemic. In 2019 they were only 11% or so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 22:14:22


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hecaton wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Nah, you are just being needlessly semantic here. In the spirit of the topic being discussed, Blackie obviously meant that "90%+ of the units" can be played from the codex without automatically losing you the game. The remaining 10% is stuff like SM Servitors, Fortifications, Dhrukari Beast squads and so on.


Well I'd disagree with that, then. There are codexes where you have to go suss out a specific build to make them playable on an even footing with everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
Clearly GW doesn't agree with you on giving away the rules for free. And it seems to be working for them, so I'm inclined to think they know how to run their business better than you do.


People thought that about the American auto industry for a long time.

GW is doing well because of inertia. There are other better games with better monetization schemes, but GW is close to "too big to fail" (at least within the minis gaming space). It isn't helped by the fact that the influx of consensus-minded people into the gaming space over the last ten years or so has dramatically increased the amount of "gamers" who see GW's ubiquity and gakky corporate attitude as plusses.


That is an issue right ? Like most american telecom giants, they are rich because they have a near monopoly on the market in the areas they are present. People don't tend to pay them because they like them, in most cases they dislike them pretty heavily but what can you do ? Nothing. People can argue the GW monopoly but the fact remains you can't throw a stone without hitting a GW player in most places that run games or in most groups that you want to play games in. Many other games are way more niche, and that availability of players sells itself with inertia in the market. They could easily have the rules for free and sell the books for the collectors and still they would gobble them up.
   
 
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