Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Over on warseer there was a wishlisting thread for Grey Knights that got me thinking. GW does not want to do a combined codex for the inquisition. They intend to do a codex that instead more greatly emphasizes the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle for their respective ordo. This is discussion is based around that concept, what will make that idea of a codex work?

I largely see the design of Grey Knights to be a bit of balancing act. While they are Daemonhunters, on the tabletop they do not play solely against daemons, thus any attempt to build a list solely around that idea will not work. Thus we must step back and look at the nature of daemons and how they function on the table. Grey Knights should excel at fighting daemons but there rules should be wrtten to give them a broader application of their ability and not written so narrowly as to be only applicable to a Chaos Daemon army.

The two things central to daemons are their deep striking and their invulnerable saves. These two mechanics are what Grey Knights should excel at hampering.

Another philosophical note, I believe the concept of Grey Knights has been a bit watered down from the shift from a single "uber-elite" unit to an entire army. I think in general they should gain some of that back. Thus instead of a reduced point price, they should maintian the current point level but with rules that reflect it. There are two components to improving the rules for the core Grey Knight units: first, all bolters and stormbolter be equipped with psy-bolts, ignoring invulnerable saves; second that the basic grey knights squads be given varying degrees os collective psyker powers (similar to the Psyker battle squad of IG, but with a more appropriate list of powers).

With the army list I wanted to try to fill in the the type of units that were needed in a characterful way. This is army list I came up with:

HQ
 Grandmaster
 Master (Brother-Captain)
 Chaplain
 Grey Knight Command Squad
-Amplifies commanders Psychic power
 Inquisitor (fixed high stats)
-Similar to IG command squad
-Henchmen all with the same stats
-Henchmen each provide ability, no stat boost.
-more worth while weapon options

Elite
 Assassins
 Daemonhost
 Death-cult Assassin
 Grey Knight Terminators
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
 Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
-Stormbolter has psy-bolt
-Heavy Flamer replaced with Incinerator Option
 Ironclad Dreadnought
-May take 2 nemesis force fist
-May take a psycannon in place of Meltagun
-Hurricane bolter equipped with psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
-May take a Heavy Incinerator in place of "Heavy Flamer"
 Venerable Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
-Stormbolter has psy-ammo (ignores inv saves).
-Heavy Flamer replaced with Incinerator Option

Troop
 Grey Knights
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-may pay 35pts to deep strike
 Shield Bearers (Replace Stormtroopers) (10pts)
- Las-Glaive
--Shooting: R24 S3 AP4 Assault 2, Rending
--Close Combat: +1S Rending
-Combat Shield: 5+ Inv Save
-(0-4) Thermic Lance (10-15pts)
-- Shooting: R12 S8 AP1 (Always receives +2d6 Armor Pen)
-- Close Combat: Power Weapon
 Exorcists Marine Contingent (21pts)
- Standard Marine weapons options
- Bolters have psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
- Fearless
- Demonic Essence (5+ Inv)
- Demonic Speed (roll 2d6, pick highest, for running)

Fast Attack
 Null Pillar
-Drop Pod
-Scrambles deepstriking within 24”
-Daemons become unstable
-Twin-linked Psycannons
 Grey Knight Cataphract (Jet Bikes)
-Stormbolter on Jet bike (instead of arm)
-Storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-(0-2) may be upgraded with psycannons or incinerators
 Valkyrie Vengeance
- 2x Vortex Missiles (additional option)
- Door mounted Psy-cannons

Heavy Support
 Grey Knight Purgation Squad
-Add Heavy Incinerator
-Add heavy psycannon
 Land Raider
 Land Raider Crusader
-Hurricane Bolters fires, psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Land Raider Redeemer
 Hellstorm Cannon (Thunderfire Cannon)
- Large ordnance template
- Range 60
- Ignores Inv Saves


I think some of the upgrade options would be replaced with distinctively Grey Knight ones. Such as Land Raiders being able to take "heavy incinerators" in place of a pintle multimelta.

My concept for the "Null Pillar" is its effectively a drop pod turned reliquary that transports a chunck of material identical to what composes the pillars on Cadia that hold back the eye of terror from spreading.

The Excorcists marines are in there as a fluffier alternative to having the "allied" and inducted marine unit options. The Exocrcists being the science experminent of the Grey Knights would easily be seen along side and at their beckon call.

The Cataphract, are Grey Knight jet bikers. They make for what I think is a fluffy way of giving the Grey Knights a single fast attack choice that takes the places of Bikes, Jump Packs, landspeeders all in one unit.

For the stormtroopers, I looked at the unit and their intended function. As they're written in the IG codex I don't believe they'd make much sense along side an army that fights units who are predominantly invulnerable save without much in the way of 3+ saves. Their point cost is too high at that, making them worthless even as cannon fodder. I thought they should be a bit more specific to the daemonhunter cause. Really they're a bit of a place holder, but get the point across.

I don't believe allied units are appropriate in a list meant to emphasize the Grey Knights. For their list to stand on its own, they need to not be dependent on taking allies to deal with non-daemon armies.

So what do you think?

I think this is, well, waaaaaay OP.

-Shield Bearers; for 10 points you get a 24" assault 2 RENDING weapon, and a rending S4 CCW? Sign me up for six squads, please! Oh, and lets not forget the option for four meltaguns, which also count as power weapons! That's truly ridiculous.

-The fact that every single unit in the army ignores invulnerable saves as standard means that Daemons will be completely unplayable against them, and most other armies will have a significant disadvantage.

-What points cost are you envisioning for Cataphracts and Null Pillars? They'll have to be hellishly expensive to be balanced at all.

I had been thinking about a pure GK 5th edition force for a while... here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:

HQ's -

Grandmaster - give eternal warrior, +1 WS. fixed.
Brother-Captain - give 2 wounds, +1 WS, 90 pts base cost. fixed.
Chaplain - Same stats as brother captain, with re-rolls to hit. set cost at 130 pts.
Acting Brother Captain (Justicar) - same stats as brother captain, in power armor - 70 pts. boom, done.

Retinues - keep current rules, let the retinue take 2 special weapons instead of just 1.

****************

Elite-
Grey Knight Terminators... give them nemesis hammers + stormshields. (nemesis hammer is str10 i1, 3+ invl from shield).
Purgation squad... should be moved to elite status

Troops-
Grey Knights in power armor (they can deep strike)
Inquisitorial stormtroopers - given new stormtrooper IG stats.

Fast-
Grey Knights with jump packs - same stats as PAGK, with jump packs...

Heavy-
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Orbital Bombardments
Predators (baal style, with psycannon + incinerators)





thoughts about units... give grey knights multiple passive psychic powers, similar to warlock powers. every squad can choose offensive or defensive abilities, and within those groups, powers like

shrouding- always roll to see as if night fighting.
shield of faith- gains a 5+ invulnerable save.
spirit of the martyr - gains FNP.

or offensive... like -

fury of the emperor- all GK gain +1 attack in hand to hand
Daemon's Bane -all members of the squad ignore inuvlnerable saves with ranged and close combat weapons.
Chant of Battle- the GK all gain +1 WS, and all enemies in base to base loose 1 attack

things like that.

Characters should have active psychic powers, but significantly better than what's available now. Examples -

Holocaust- STR should equal the number of members of the squad, with a multiplier of 2 if the caster is in terminator armor. AP should be 5.

Hammerhand- keep as is, but grants rending + ignores invulnerable saves.

ect.....

BeRzErKeR wrote:I think this is, well, waaaaaay OP.

-Shield Bearers; for 10 points you get a 24" assault 2 RENDING weapon, and a rending S4 CCW? Sign me up for six squads, please! Oh, and lets not forget the option for four meltaguns, which also count as power weapons! That's truly ridiculous.

-The fact that every single unit in the army ignores invulnerable saves as standard means that Daemons will be completely unplayable against them, and most other armies will have a significant disadvantage.

-What points cost are you envisioning for Cataphracts and Null Pillars? They'll have to be hellishly expensive to be balanced at all.

I realize its extreme. I figure starting overpowered and backing down would be simpler than going at it from the other way.
I think its more realistic to make it Range 12 or Assault 1, or both. Whatever is necessary to get to meet the 10pt mark I set.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Horst wrote:I had been thinking about a pure GK 5th edition force for a while... here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:

HQ's -

Grandmaster - give eternal warrior, +1 WS. fixed.
Brother-Captain - give 2 wounds, +1 WS, 90 pts base cost. fixed.
Chaplain - Same stats as brother captain, with re-rolls to hit. set cost at 130 pts.
Acting Brother Captain (Justicar) - same stats as brother captain, in power armor - 70 pts. boom, done.

Retinues - keep current rules, let the retinue take 2 special weapons instead of just 1.

****************

Elite-
Grey Knight Terminators... give them nemesis hammers + stormshields. (nemesis hammer is str10 i1, 3+ invl from shield).
Purgation squad... should be moved to elite status

Troops-
Grey Knights in power armor (they can deep strike)
Inquisitorial stormtroopers - given new stormtrooper IG stats.

Fast-
Grey Knights with jump packs - same stats as PAGK, with jump packs...

Heavy-
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders
Orbital Bombardments
Predators (baal style, with psycannon + incinerators)

I don't think you need three tiers of commanders, no other army has three tiers, why should Grey Knights?

Orbital Bombardment, taking an FOC is stupid and a complaint I have with the current codex. I don't believe intangible assets without a model representing it should be in any army.

The new stormtroopers wouldn't fit in a Grey Knights army, what is that Hotshot lasgun going to do to a daemon? What do they bring to the army? I mean they are the primary deepstrike unit of the IG, but almost every GK can out do them in that regard.

Next, why no Dreadnought? Venerables don't just come out of nowhere, they're suppose to be very old dreadnoughts. If you have no dreadnoughts, then on a fluff basis, GK will never have replacement venerable dreadnoughts.

I'm all for reinventing aspects of the Grey Knights, but giving them "nemesis hammers" and stormshields is just a round about way of making them into normal marines on steroids as opposed to being something more unique.

Why should the purgation team be an elite? If just carrying extra guns make a unit elite, there are alot of misclassified armies.

My only issue with the predator is that it doesn't fit the rapid deployment nature of the Grey Knights. I realize land raiders don't either but GK have Land Raiders as opposed to other vehicles because they are that elite.

Jump packs? For an army that can teleport any of its troops, why would you need jump packs?

Eternal warrior, I understand special characters having it, but why would the grandmaster?

I like the idea of a 5th ed Inq Forces codex, but ...

The only thing missing here is the "I win button" wargear, +10 points. A lot of this stuff is insanely OP.

The grand master is basically a special character. He's a super badass. There are only 7 and they are probably the most powerful SM.

ghost11 wrote:I like the idea of a 5th ed Inq Forces codex, but ...

The only thing missing here is the "I win button" wargear, +10 points. A lot of this stuff is insanely OP.

Just to quote what I've already said:

aka_mythos wrote:
I realize its extreme. I figure starting overpowered and backing down would be simpler than going at it from the other way.

There isn't that much wrong with the current set of rules, in fairness. Here are a few changes I'd like to see made to make things a touch simpler.

Grandmaster gets WS of six and Eternal Warrior.
Brother Captain gets two wounds.
Both of them get a 4+ Invulnerable Iron Halo.

Assasins either no longer take up an Elite Slot or no longer require an as Inquisitor.

Dreadnaughts moved to Elites.

PAGK can take a transport. Psycannon Razorbacks maybe. Something to stop them slogging across the field unprotected or relying on Deep Strike.

Some decent fast attack choices. Jump Pack or Biker Knights might be suitable, but also something wierd and whacky as well. Possibly a Valk or Vednetta (because those are expensive models and the more armies that can take them...)

Some fun and new Heavy Support. Maybe something like the Drop Bastions from Planet Strike to create additional shelter and firepower, so essentially an over armoured drop pod that would work in reverse. Something unusual anyway.

I am curious to the justification of a non-special character getting eternal warrior when similar IC have a pre-established precedent of not having Eternal Warrior. I think that GK would get a number of special characters and one or more of them would have eternal warrior, but I don't think its appropriate for whats representative of a generic chapter master.

I agree on the Assassin no longer filling an FOC slot. Keep it 0-1, where it does not take a FOC slot.

The dreadnoughts is in the Elite section.

I thought between Land Raiders and Valkyries the PAGK would have enough transport options.

I don't feel either standard bikes or jump packs are appropriate to the Grey Knights. I think more than any other marine army they deserve to get some version of Space Marine jetbike, like marine had during the pre-heresey period and rogue trader. The image of Grey Knights jetting across the field and lancing a daemon seem approriate. I have in my proposed rules the Valk Vengence, to carry PAGK as well as Daemon hunting weapons. I also have drop pods carrying chuncks of the stuff that disrupt the spread of daemons and the eye of terror, that the Cadians guard, they would function to disrupt Daemons from out deepstriking Grey Knights.

Grey knights individually are more powerful than space marines by a significant amount. Grand masters are most likely much more powerful than space marine chapter masters. It would make sense for them to have eternal warrior.

Powerful is too broad a term to compare them to standard space marines. In all of Codex Space Marine only one guy has Eternal Warrior. I understand that Grey Knights are more "powerful" but if out of the 900,000 marines that are essentially covered by that book, only one guy has it, it needs to be something beyond the grasp of "mere" mortals. To say Grey Knight Chapter Masters are 100% of the time equal to or better than Marneus Calgar is a bit of a stretch.

I acknowledge that Grey Knights are tough stuff and are better than most Chapter Masters (as if having 7 chapter masters wasn't enough) but they shouldn't be that good out of the box. I definitely think a special character like Stern (after achieving full grand master status) would be an eternal warrior, but giving it to non-special characters is too much.

But that's the point. Grand Masters have literally been to hell and back. They should at least be Calgar's equal.

Perhaps not stat-wise, but I mean, Grey Knights were bred for a different mission than regular Space Marines. Grey Knights are meant to go and fight Daemons that would rip a regular Space Marine in two. Space Marines are meant to restore order and reclaim worlds for the Imperium.

However, Eternal Warrior would only be fair on Grand Masters.

I also think that Valkyries should be a fast attack choice for Daemonhunters.

Everyone wants a Grandmaster to have eternal warrior, I just don't get it. *shrug* I don't know what else to say.

I kinda have the Valkyries as fast attacks covered in my original post.

aka_mythos wrote:Everyone wants a Grandmaster to have eternal warrior, I just don't get it. *shrug* I don't know what else to say.

I kinda have the Valkyries as fast attacks covered in my original post.

How about "a grand master is superior to marneus calgar so he should have EW".

I don't get what's so difficult about this.

ph34r wrote:How about "a grand master is superior to marneus calgar so he should have EW".

As much as I dislike EW when we have access to retinues, I have to pretty much agree. Any GK GM should be able to make Calgar wet himself with little trouble. I mean, these guys are supposed to take the full psychic might of the Emperor without backing down, what's a lascannon going to do?

I think GW would argue differently. You have to cut through the fluff an realize that alot of the colorful language i just meant to make people feel better about their army choice.

Grandmaster's are supposed to go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Eternal Warrior doesn't seem too out of place given the prey the guy hunts. The alternative is, of course, making it so his Nemesis Force Weapon and a pshychic test deffintely can kill them with a single wound rather having there Eternal Warrior negate his strongest attack.

I know it's all just fluff in the end of the day, but it would be nice if the guy wasn't likely to get trashed by the very things he's meant to hunt down.

I understand the need for Eternal Warrior, I don't like the justification.

I would prefer to see some explanation beyond "I'm the mother eff-ing Grand Master!"

I think if you wanted to make him effectively an "Eternal Warrior" there should be a psyker power that makes him have "eternal warrior". That to me gives some sort of justification that is balanced and justifiable. That psionic might protects him, but restricts his focus by taking up a psyker power for that turn.

Nice idea's guys. I think a rule making all units in the army fearless whilst an inquisitior is on the table could be cool. maybe only if the inquisitor has a specific wargear. Would have to cost a few points tho. Or they could use his leadership like an imperial guard vox caster but without having to equip a vox caster to each squad.

Grand Master SHOULD have IC. They are very expensive, there are only a few in 40k, and those are almost godlike figures.

I think the Inquisitorial storm troopers should be re-written from the Imperial Guard counter parts. To give them the improved leadership or fearlessness they need give them a special "mission" that comes standard. Something like "Mission: Inquisitorial Escort, as long as an Inquisitor is on the table, treat as fearless."

I don't know about fearless, but the improved leadership sounds ok.

Inquisitor lords can already decide to either pass or fail a leadersip test so if that was extended to the troops it would break the game really.

Break the game? Entire space marine armies can do that, and they do not break the game.

If WH40K deamons were 'THE ARMY' as is WHFB i could see a grossly OP list... but seriously, the whole of the Deamons List is meh. they are not the HUGE Smurfing as people would think. i would give Units of grey knights Preferred Enemy for a specific type of Deamon, ie Khorne, Tzeench ect. Maybe even more focussed, like PE: Bloodletters or Plauge Bearers. also i would give them this:
Hexagrammic Wards: ANY model/unit attempting to enter play via Deep Strike that ends up within 12" of a model with this rule is returned to reserves. that model automatically passes its reserves roll next turn. if this Model is a deamon, it takes a S4 hit, no Invulnerable saves allowed. Against Wounds from Deamon units, this models Armor save is Invulerable.
to counter the broken potential of this rule, i would put point cost/number of unit restrictions on GK. like a purely GK army being some 20 or 30 models: 2 units of standard grey Knights, 1 unit of Termies, 1 HQ. while im unsure of the official number of GK in the chapter, i would assume due to the EXACTING nature of the Trials and requirements nessissary, it would be significantly less than a codex chapter, but have far more support.

Oddly, no. The Grey Knights are larger that a codex Chapter. Several thousand members strong before you get to there support staff. The difference is they're in small groups, sometimes jusst four knights and a Justicar, attatched to a Space Marine force or looking into a possible incursion. It's rare to see a gathering of Grey Knights in triple didgets, and usually because something seriously bad has happened.

I suppose that, although there training is harsher and there limited to psychers, they have access to far more recruiting worlds.

Hmm.

Going with some of the ideas the OP suggested:

Grey Knight
Stubborn, Deep Strike, ATSKNF, Warding, True Grit

Involcator
Rg24 S8 AP1 Assault 1, Tank Hunter, Ignores Inv saves
OR
Rg24 S7 AP5 Assault 1, Large Blast, Ignores Inv saves, Wounds agaist Ld

HQ
Grandmaster - 140
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/4++
Iron Will, Grey Knight, Psyker, IC
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Storm Shield for 20p
Upgrade NFW to Daemonhammer (as CH) for 20p, Chainfist for 5p, Annointed Weapon for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free.

Brother Captain - 90
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv2+/5++
Iron Will, Grey Knight, Psyker, IC
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Storm Shield for 20p
Upgrade NFW to Daemonhammer (as CH) for 20p, Chainfist for 5p, Annointed Weapon for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free.

ELITE
GKT (3) - 150
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld10 Sv2+/5++
Grey Knight, Psyker
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Upgrade SB to Combi-weapon for 5p, Storm Shield for 10p
Upgrade NFW to Thunderhammer for 10p, Chainfist for 10p
Replace SB+NFW to Twin Lighting Claws for free
Up to 2 models may replace their SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p

GKPS (3) - 75
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+
Grey Knight
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Up to 4 models may replace their NFW+SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 24 points each


TROOPS
PAGK (3) - 75
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+
Grey Knight
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW+SB with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 24 points each

Storm Troops
As before, but 8 points per model.

FA
GK Cataphrackt (sp?) (3) - 140
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+/4++
Grey Knight, Jet Bike
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Twin Linked Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 45 points each

HS
Dreadnought
Ven. Dreadnought
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusiader
Land Raider Redeemer


All squads have a Sarge with +1Ld and +1A
All models with a Storm Bolter may buy Psy ammo for 3p
All Heavy Bolters may buy psy ammo for 8p

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Break the game? Entire space marine armies can do that, and they do not break the game.

I think the point was missed by the other poster. It was not to propose that specific rule, but was to show the nature of leadership enhancing rules that an Inquisitor could convey.

The description would read: The Inquisitor has purged the weak willed and unclean souls from this formation, leaving only those truly loyal in body, mind, and spirit to the Emperors will. These units have been indoctrinated and driven to show their loyality and devotion. Inducted units recieve a...

Black Antelope wrote:
Going with some of the ideas the OP suggested:
...

My only issue is that from the list you've posted the Grey Knights would still need some additional unit options to be viable.

I also think that a particular mindset needs to be broken to further improve their viability. Just because they currently have special weapons that have the stats of heavy weapons, does not mean they wouldn't have heavier versions of those weapons.

Black Antelope wrote:

FA
GK Cataphrackt (sp?) (3) - 140
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+/4++
Grey Knight, Jet Bike
Comes with a Nemesis Force Weapon and Twin Linked Storm Bolter.
Up to 2 models may replace their NFW with Incinerator for 15p, Psycannon for 20p, Invocator for 25p
May add up to 7 more models for 45 points each

All decent, if a little close to being SM, up until here. Grey Knights focus on teleportation for their transportation, not bikes, jetpacks, or rhinos. Jetbikes just don't fit with Grey Knights.

If they can teleport terminator armor and power armor what says they can't teleport a bike sized vehicle. Besided Grey Knights also use dreadnoughts and landraiders why would a teleportation restriction matter when other components of their force are not capable of teleportation?