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I think that eternal warrior isn't such a bad idea for him, considering there are only 7 of them and they seem to be rather amazing, I don't see why not? In my codex there is an IC with eternal warrior, the demon prince, also the Avatar has it and so does the wraithlord, not too sure about the last one though.

The point is, he is so old and has seen so many battles, that he holds such a place as a demon prince or avatar in this army and so forth eternal warrior is justified.

You could make a 'grand master' generic model like the chapter master for the space marines without eternal warrior and then make 7 special characters for all of the grand masters (Like the pheonex lords) and give them special stats, equipment and eternal warrior.

Was just looking and thought I'd say my piece ^_^

Does anybody have any ideas on how to improve Inquisitors? I mean, I know they shouldn't be pwning Carnifexes and such, but come on, they get bitch-slapped by Tactical Marines!

Any ideas?

Inquisitors are hard to work. On one hand they're just humans on the other hand they're heroic characters of sorts. The Imperial guard charcters show that humans can have decent stats, but generally puny strength and toughness. I think you could write rules for wargear to effectively mitigate those weaknesses. For example weapons that give +1 to the models strength. You stack enough of those things and you have a model that is only "human" in name and not in effective use.

Indeed, inquisitors could be equipped with psychic powers and retinue to make them more powerful and tough surely? Also, couldn't they have the option to have power armour or even terminator armour? I've seen a few inquisitor models and the inquisitors are in power armour for one or two and one of them is in terminator armour, or at least massive power armour.

Also, couldn't you use Eisenhorn as a special character in the codex? He would be more powerful than the average inquisitor or you could use Inquisitor Lord Coteaz, he's damn powerful as well isn't he?

I don't know if psyker powers are the best way. Not all Inquisitors are psykers. I think it is one way to mitigate their overall weakness, but not on a stats level.

Hmmm.... maybe have two types of inquisitor? One that relies on tech and equipment for his skills and the other on psychic abilities, that way each has a different stat line to reflect their forte and has different things available to him to enhance themselves.

Also you could make the retinue of each differ in what you can have in them to make them suitable for the inquisitor (Make them more of a buffing unit rather than a beefy bodyguard)

Well I think the solution is probably something more like Ordo Malleus inquisitors are one way, Ordo Hereticus possibly Ordo Xenos are the the other. Ordo malleus might only get wargear that either does very basic things like, terminator armor with its save, with the non-basic wargear options relying on his psker powers, like a familiar. Ordo xenos might rely on weird injectables and tau power suit. Ordo Hereticus might rely on weapons that auto-wound or ignore invulnerable saves or the alike.

I think the IG command squad with advisors is a good example of how the Inquisitors retinue should be handled.

aka_mythos wrote:Inquisitors are hard to work. On one hand they're just humans on the other hand they're heroic characters of sorts. The Imperial guard charcters show that humans can have decent stats, but generally puny strength and toughness. I think you could write rules for wargear to effectively mitigate those weaknesses. For example weapons that give +1 to the models strength. You stack enough of those things and you have a model that is only "human" in name and not in effective use.

I've always thought that Inquisitors should just be an HQ option for an Imperial Guard army, alongside of their retinue.

Have taking an Inquisitor as the HQ open up avenues for better equipped Guard units as Troops, or specialist Ordos kit available to the units under his command.

But Inquisitors very rarely lead IG armies into battl under normal circumstances do they? They would be much better suited to an army based around the inquisition where they nearly always lead the army, but I do like the idea of an ordo malleus, xenos and herticus

Great Unclean One wrote:But Inquisitors very rarely lead IG armies into battle under normal circumstances do they? They would be much better suited to an army based around the inquisition where they nearly always lead the army, but I do like the idea of an ordo malleus, xenos and herticus

You can't really "base an army around the Inquisition" though. The Inquisition is such a vague and broadly defined entity that it just will not work, as we saw with the wishywashy Allied Units situations in Codex: Daemonhunters.

As for Inquisitors leading armies? Sure they do, whenever they damn well please That Rosette means they act with the authority of the Emperor himself, and He won't look too fondly on the Guard Commanders who don't move themselves to the background if the Inquisitor wants to lead the army himself.

But I think the real confusion in this situation is the idea of them "leading" a Guard army into combat. Most Inquisitors would spread themselves and their staff to where they'd work best in the army, and be content to let the standard chain of command reign.
So in this case, think of the Inquisitor and his retinue as an HQ choice with Advisors that get spread throughout the regiment and gives a radical difference to the army composition itself(provided it's not a regiment that's just coopted into the Inquisitor's service).

I think one way to the view the Inquisition, in no strict terms, is like the different intelligence agencies of the government. Say the Ordo Malleus, Order Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus are like the NSA, CIA, and FBI respectively. All have distinctive tasks with some overlapping responsibility. Each recruit and form elite (para) military units. And while members can assert sanctioned authority over military units, it is done outside a chain of command in more of an advisory role. The Imperium maybe different in that respect but the point is that the normal military structure is present, just with the commanding officer answerable to this outsider.

Just because an agent or inquisitor is present on the battlefield does not mean he changes the nature of the military unit. There has to be something more situational and less inherent about the contribution.

In a "realistic" way an Inquisitor represents a more intelligence and clandestine capability for the army they're along side. Providing situaltional information like "the best way to kill this new 'bug'" or "how to prepare ones mind for the presence of daemons" or "training to spot a witch."

Should we maybe move this towards a new thread about what we'd like to see for the Inquisition?

I don't think that necessary. Thus has the OP spoken. Thus shall it be.

So the topic is still about the Demonhunters codex? If so is it about ideas for it or are we making a fan based new codex?

One and then maybe the other.

Lets assert that codex daemonhunters is being redone and needs some new units to bring it up to the same numbers seen in other army lists. What new units should they receive?

While its justifiable that they get anything space marines have, that just isn't interesting, and the Daemonhunters really deserve better than left overs.

aka_mythos wrote:I think one way to the view the Inquisition, in no strict terms, is like the different intelligence agencies of the government. Say the Ordo Malleus, Order Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus are like the NSA, CIA, and FBI respectively. All have distinctive tasks with some overlapping responsibility. Each recruit and form elite (para) military units. And while members can assert sanctioned authority over military units, it is done outside a chain of command in more of an advisory role. The Imperium maybe different in that respect but the point is that the normal military structure is present, just with the commanding officer answerable to this outsider.

Just because an agent or inquisitor is present on the battlefield does not mean he changes the nature of the military unit. There has to be something more situational and less inherent about the contribution.

In a "realistic" way an Inquisitor represents a more intelligence and clandestine capability for the army they're along side. Providing situaltional information like "the best way to kill this new 'bug'" or "how to prepare ones mind for the presence of daemons" or "training to spot a witch."

Well, the way I was meaning:

Perhaps having a Xenos Inquisitor leading a Guard force would grant the ability to purchase things like Hellfire/Kraken shells for the Heavy Bolters--or, like you said, a way to upgrade the army itself into having 'advanced training' for combating the various Xenos breeds the Inquisitor has encountered? Then availability of kit that would be better suited for putting down Psykers/Mutants for the Hereticus Inquisitor's force, things like your Null Stone(which is an awesome idea, by the way) and a more advanced training regime in CQB styled tactics(move/fire at a reduced strength/rate) for the Malleus Inquisitor's force?

Something like the last Guard codex's "Xenos-Fighters" doctrine, where they have to SPECIFICALLY be represented somehow or another(in this case--on the actual Inquisitor himself, maybe making a very recognizable 'profile' for each Ordos? Say--Powered Armor+hammer/libram=Malleus, less ornate, more covert yet functional armor would be the profile you'd see on a Hereticus agent, and something like how Solomon Lok looks for the Xenos agents?)

I dunno, maybe I'm just wishlisting here. But another part of the idea was to have the ability to upgrade Stormtroopers/Grenadier Veterans from their current incarnation to an "Inquisitorial" version, with access to 'better' tech(again--with an actual representation being required).

Well I think at the heart of this are two slightly different things. When an Inquisitor goes into battle there are two ways he does this, he grabs the troops maintained by his ordo and leads them, or he takes "command" of an imperial garrison of IG or Marines. Each instance produces a similar but different result.

A marine or IG army with an accompanying Inquisitor would have slightly different benefits than a Daemonhunter list that contains tweaked units that exist in parallel to units in those armies. An Inquisitor might be able to provide a garrison extra tactical information but an Inquisitor needs to travel quickly and might not be able to bring a warehouse full of special equipment where ever he goes.

Whatever the Inquisitors convey on an IG or Marine army needs to be simple yet worthwhile, that adds to those armies rules without changing profiles. When you start to change profiles and stats you create the sort of situation of confusion that GW would want to avoid in producing a new rule set.

I agree that we should focus on an inqusition focused force rather than a chracter (The Inquisitor) That would bolster another imperial army. Maybe we should focus on one force organisation first? I would have thought we start from the top, at HQ and special characters. Here are my ideas for what we could include and work out stats for -

Special Characters-

Grand Masters
Eisenhorn
Kryptman
Hector Rex
Lord Coteaz

HQ-

Xenos Inquisitor
Hereticus Inquisitor
Malleus Inquisitor
(Inquisitor retinue)

I don't think we're attempting an all in one list. I think it should be even narrower than that. As a starting point think more like the current codex, but with all the allied stuff left out. The army should be predominantly the chamber militant, army of the ordo, with tinges of the Inquisitors. Where they don't lead but provide support.

I'd say that in a Grey Knights army Inquisitors should have a presence similar to that of Master of the forge/Techmarines in a Space Marine army, they have their own abilities and special equipment, with a unique retinue but where they don't re-define the army. They become another way to accentuate the mission of the army.

I would say, thought should be given to new Grey Knight units. While they can recieve everything every other imperial army has, too much and they're diluted. So what are some good flavorful units?

Hmmmm.... It's just going to be differently equipped grey knights isn't it? So for fast attack you'd have grey knights with jump packs? Wouldn't this just result in a clone of Space Marines but slightly more expensive with different weapons?

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think we're attempting an all in one list. I think it should be even narrower than that. As a starting point think more like the current codex, but with all the allied stuff left out. The army should be predominantly the chamber militant, army of the ordo, with tinges of the Inquisitors. Where they don't lead but provide support.

I'd say that in a Grey Knights army Inquisitors should have a presence similar to that of Master of the forge/Techmarines in a Space Marine army, they have their own abilities and special equipment, with a unique retinue but where they don't re-define the army. They become another way to accentuate the mission of the army.

I would say, thought should be given to new Grey Knight units. While they can recieve everything every other imperial army has, too much and they're diluted. So what are some good flavorful units?

Good, flavorful units?

Well, we've yet to see Grey Knight Librarians and Chaplains, which we know to exist.

Maybe variant Terminator/Power Armored squads kitted out for different roles?

Ex: an "Assault" squad of Power Armored Grey Knights would be hefting Storm Shields and Nemesis Force Weapons--alongside of having teleport assault rules like they do?

Terminator squads armed with Heavy Incinerators/Heavy Psycannons and the Slow and Purposeful rule as Heavy Support? Kind of a mobile walking purgatory for heretics!

Land Raiders and Rhinos should be reduced cost for GKs, in my view. We know they have them, we know they have *alot* of them. We just also know that they usually are not in situations where heavy armored vehicles are necessary.
Things like that could be an interesting way to go, along with perhaps allowing Brother-Captains to be taken as upgrades to Terminator squads--have them be more like Wolf Guard(all Justicars/higher ranked members) rather than Ultramarines.

That sounds good, shall we focus first of all on the main troop choice? The power armoured grey knights, any ideas for what sort of weapons they could have and upgrades and costs?

Well, put simply?

They'd have to be something to be feared to earn that 'elite' status the Grey Knights have...but still be piddly enough to be Troops.

That's where the difficulty in this army idea comes from.

Well.... we could make it more of an elite army, that way we can make the troops for the army slightly better than most but more expensive, not better troops but better equipment available?

That's kind of the point.

If anything, this would be the only army where I'd say having a "Troops" choice is functionally idiotic.

Indeed, but it represents the least powerful or specialised men of each army, so in comparison they are less powerful than the grey knight terminators correct? Then in comparison they should be in the troop choice should they not?

You're applying logic here.

Don't.

I have an unorthodox idea... but stick with me for a second... the power armored Grey Knights are newbies in the army. So in comparisson to a normal marine army they are like scouts. In some of the marine armies the scouts are Elites and not troops. I think an interesting twist would be to switch the power armored Grey Knights with the Terminators and make the TRUE Grey Knights troops in their own army.

So make it more like a Deathwing list?

I've always thought Grey Knights would be an amazing Deathwing army.
Sold.

If that were done the powered armor grey knights could be given special gear recon gear or whatever to make them more versitile.


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In the fluff before this, they were exclussively terminator armor. So I see no harm in this.