5th ed. Grey Knights: A conceptual discussion on a Daemonhunters list without allies.

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**Mozzyfuzzy**

Why not have a GK baal predator sort of thing

E.g. rather than assault cannon (or whatever the hull mounted weapon is) some sort of psycannon variant (but not rending), and incenerator based big flamer sponsons.

On the Grand master EW subject give him a psychic power that negates EW for daemons. Because he knows how to beat them up, but this power would have no effect on anything thats not a daemon.

**Fafnir**

Judge Cadmius wrote:
Transports:
I certainly agree. Although rhinos, razorbacks and drop-pods are all useful tools, and in character they would probably make use of them if they had them, I think for the meta-game purpose of setting Grey Knights apart from normal marines, they should not have them. In addition, though, I feel that any use of a transport (especially drop pods) really undercuts the emphasis on they GK's mastery of teleportation. I don't even like land raiders (though, of all the vehicles, I suppose at least they have the super elite, stuff of legends, transport)

I agree with these sentiments. Transports are not things that the GK need when they can teleport wherever they want.

Grandmaster and EW:
I also agree that >if< the Grand Master had Eternal Warrior, it would be more appropriate to make it a reflection of his psykic prowess, rather than how superbadass of a fighter he is. There was discussion of a Grandmaster being better than Calgar, since he can slay the mightiest daemons of the warp, and therefore he should get EW. I disagree - I feel Calgar should be able to lay flat the Grandmaster with his powerfists with no problems. Calgar is a warrior - Grandmaster is a Daemonhunter. Calgar spent his life fighting and pursuing physical perfection - Grandmaster spent his life reading the Grimoire of True Names, developing his anti-daemon psykic powers, and otherwise becoming highly specialist. Calgar is good at killing people, but would probably get killed by a daemon. Daemonhunter excels at banishing daemons, but would have less experience vs normal material world troops.
Calgar > Grandmaster > Daemon (and Daemon would go back to trumping Calgar, like a rock-scissors-paper).

I would have to disagree here. The Grey Knights are trained to be just as good at martial combat as they are against specialized targets like Daemons. They have to fight off CSM, obviously, and occasionally would have to take out renegade SM chapters that have been tainted by Chaos, after all. They may specialize against Daemons, but they're not exclusive to them. They're the most powerful warriors in the Imperium for a reason. A Grand Master would be able to easily trounce Mary Sue Calgar. Not only is the one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium (if not THE most powerful, aside from the Emperor, obviously), he's using what is supposedly the Emperor's own geneseed, and is equipped with the finest weapons and armour in the Imperium.

Although, I don't care for Eternal Warrior, since it emphasizes sloppy play.

Dreadnoughts:
I also disagree with the whole Dreadnought stuff; they are awesome models, but they're not appropriate by the fluff. Right next to the dreadnought entry it actually states that the Knights would rather die and rest happy-face on Titan, rather than be wired into dreadnought armour. Though, since since that same paragraph does say that occasionally some will choose to live on as man-machine, I think it'd be more appropriate, and flavourful, if there was maybe a special GK character, along the lines of a Radical Daemonhunter (who tends to break the rules, and live unconventionally) that was interred in Dreadnought armour.

This I would have to agree with, so long as enough HS options were given to replace the niche that the Dreadnoughts filled(which when you consider how crappy DH is against armour, is a huge one).

Jetbikes:
I actually love the idea of Jetbikes for Grey Knights. Nothing is more heroic and inspiring than a knight in shining order, borne upon a mighty steed. Since Grey Knights already have the baroque armour, swords, and appearance of medieval knights (more so than standard marines, at least), I think its not too far of a stretch to imagine them with jetbike cavalry, wielding nemesis force lances.

I could see this working, but they'd really have to toy with the look. And I don't want them to be like SM bikes. They should be completely different in that regard.

Inquisitors:
As some have mentioned, I really feel the best way to represent an Inquisitor, is to do him like the IG command squad. The inquisitor should, with the right wargear, be able to take on certain enemies, but otherwise he should just be a regular S3 T3 human. I strongly feel that an Inquisitor's real power lies in his experience, knowledge and resources, rather than his combat prowess. This would best be represented by giving special qualities or weapons to units he joins, such as giving them preferred enemy (his experience and knowledge), or letting them reroll shooting wounds (fluffwise, giving them hellfire rounds, or something - a representation of his resources), or by keeping his retinue of henchmen (another representation of his vast resources), but giving them cool army wide tactical abilities, like the Master of Ordnance, Officer of the Fleet, and Astropath, have.

With CCS and PCS being mainly support squads now, I think that's exactly what GW is going to do with Inquisitors. Well, maybe not orders, but definetly something support oriented. I definetly wouldn't mind seeing this put into play.

Deep Strike
I'd enjoy seeing a CSM Chaos Icon type of item, that allows units deep-striking onto it to move-shoot-assault on the turn they come in. I think it'd really increase the effectiveness of the Grey Knights when they land, and also add a lot of tactical planning with your Icon bearing units - either your Terminators land as normal, and scatter, or they come in on a well positioned scouting type squad, and launch an immediate and devastating attack from there.

This should have been there day one. Grey Knights are the masters of teleportation, as far as the Imperium is concerned. Why they weren't given this ability in the old codex is way beyond me.

Psychic Effigy
Just a thought I had for a psykic power, or at least squad upgrade thats explained using psykic powers. I'll assume squad upgrade in this example:
Psykic effigy would add an additional model to your squad. Its a defensive model that would provide each member in the unit with either an invulnerable save (just a cheap one, like +5), feel no pain, or some other defensive quality (maybe T5).
Whenever wounds are allocated in the squad, wounds must always be allocated first to the effigy (i.e. effigy gets a wound, then you can put wounds on other models). When the effigy dies, the defensive bonus it gave disappears.

I think it would be useful, and a unique addition to a Grey Knights unit. unit It provides a basic amount of protection to a unit, early in the game (especially when they deepstrike), without just going overboard and ALWAYS giving them an invulnerable save, or some other increase.

An "effigy is burned as a sign of the participants' shared intent to banish the represented element from their lives."
The effigy might even be a bound daemon, locked in a temporary psykic shell, forced into a brief and painful existence as a meatshield. The whole "burning the effigy" thing, but using a bound daemon, really gives my radical Daemonhunters side a spark of excitement

Could work, but if it has to be allocated the wound first, it's abilities would always be wasted because it would always die before it actually got to be used.

Orbital fleep support
I love the idea of Orbital Bombardment. What I think would be an interesting Heavy Support choice would be something like "Orbital Fleet" - a swiss army knife choice that represents the additional firepower and resources that a ship orbiting the planet can offer to its ground forces
Options to upgrade it, though, could include a multitude of things such as
Orbital Bombardment: <as normal, with various types>
Teleport Ambush: A scouting unit is teleported into enemy ships or behind enemy lines, to disrupt plans and stall reinforcements. Enemies arriving from reserves have a chance to take some number of wounds, and/or, enemy reserve rolls are taken at a penalty, successful ones rerolled, etc (just some upgrade to interferre with reserves)
Communication Jammers: The ship has filled the airwaves and psykic channels with static interferrences. After deployment, you may reposition some number of enemy units, due to enemy orders being misinterpreted by the troops.
Beam-me-up: You may remove models from the field, as they are teleported back up to the capital ships. This could deny your opponent kill points, or let you regroup the scattered remains of several units, back into one complete unit, and re-deepstrike it at a later point.

Granted, there would be no model for this, I do recall one poster saying they didn't feel satisfied spending points, but not putting a model on the table. Fair point, though personally I like the fact that I have a force organization slot filled up with something hovering in space.

I dunno how well the Orbital Fleet would work, or how well it would be received, but I, like I said, enjoy the idea of using my space cruisers to affect the battle down below

I'd like it. The ability to teleport in and out of battle would give the expensive Grey Knights a reason to spread out, so they could really exercise their abilities without fear of having too few units to get the right objectives.

**Judge Cadmius**

Fafnir wrote:
Could work, but if it has to be allocated the wound first, it's abilities would always be wasted because it would always die before it actually got to be used.

I just realised that the Tau have some little flying frisbee drone thing that does something similar, that I would be quite happy with.

**Jaric**

We need to stop talking fluff, and look at the nitty gritty of 5th ed.

GK without transports are a fail army before even outta the gate. At least Rhinos and RB. I like DP also (but DP are kinda meh anyways).

Also, points. Everything is getting cheaper, and we can see what units are useful based on points. Lets not look at the chaos codex for what is a good 25pt model (noise marines with wpn...cant believe they are 25), and look at lets say space wolves who get grey hunters at 15pts.

I suggest if you kept the current rules of GKPA, I would price them individually at 20pts each, plus lower the cost of the special wpns.

Make the psy-cannon AP 3 also.

**daedalus**

Jaric wrote:
We need to stop talking fluff, and look at the nitty gritty of 5th ed.

GK without transports are a fail army before even outta the gate. At least Rhinos and RB. I like DP also (but DP are kinda meh anyways).

Also, points. Everything is getting cheaper, and we can see what units are useful based on points. Lets not look at the chaos codex for what is a good 25pt model (noise marines with wpn...cant believe they are 25), and look at lets say space wolves who get grey hunters at 15pts.

I suggest if you kept the current rules of GKPA, I would price them individually at 20pts each, plus lower the cost of the special wpns.

Make the psy-cannon AP 3 also

The moment we stop looking at fluff, they're no longer Grey Knights, they're Space Marines, Silvery Chapter. Having that been said, I also feel they need some sort of transport. Maybe a much less costly version of a Land Raider, possibly a new tank that is 14 all sides and no guns, or 14 all sides one turret mounted weapon? We could make it be Land Raider Crusader capacity (since it doesn't need internals for powering lascannons) and then give it a TL multimelta or a TL assault cannon on top? Honestly though, I like the idea of them being footsloggers that rely on the ability to teleport around, but they need abilities that represent that. Make them jump infantry and give them a 5+ invul save. The premier chaos demon infantry have power weapons, why would the GK just run around with absolutely zero protection? Besides, if refractor fields are common enough such that IG officers carry them, why on earth couldn't grey knights have some standard issue? They're supposed to be the few and proud, which is reflected in their cost, and I'm fine with having 2/3rd the amount of guys as a space marine player, so long as they're pimped out well enough to feel like they're worth it. I don't like the idea of psy-cannon being AP3, though I understand why you would want it so. I think they'd benefit more from some sort of melta or antitank attack. Combi-storm meltas or something.
Why not look at CSM to determine power level? Khorne berserker, 22 points if memory serves and it'll win combat every time.

**Unholy_Martyr**

Well...if the Grey Knights would have any version of a transport I would say that it would be in the form of the Storm Raven Gunship. Really, the only vehicles in the Army should be Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. The Grey Knights are the Emperor's favorites in every regard. Their gene seed comes from the Emperor himself so that pretty much means whatever they want, they get.

In terms of universal rules, I would say go with the following:

Fearless, Feal No Pain, and MAYBE Preferred Enemy against Daemons. Keep the Shrouding and almost everything else. Also, allow the whole army to Deep Strike as well.

These don't really seem too far off base, especially if you keep their Stats similar to what they have currently.

In terms of what weapons they have, a subtle change that could make a huge difference if giving the Psycannon the following profile:

24" S 6 AP 4 Assault 3

36" S 8 AP 1 Heavy 1,Lance

Both Ignore Invulnerable Saves

The idea of Eternal Warrior being a Psychic Power...I think that should be something that ANY Grey Knight can take. Something to replace one of the useless psychic powers that are listed: For example: Something that does Eternal Warrior for the Squad +20 pts. So on and so fourth, Grey Knight Grand Masters should have Eternal Warrior anyway just for the simple fact that they have survived fighting and banishing hundreds if not thousands of Daemons. Additionally, they aren't just going after the little fish, they would go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes like a Space Marine Captain would go toe to toe with a Chaos Lord.

**aka_mythos**

I've really been a proponent of psyker power driven abilities, but I don't know if eternal warrior should be thrown around. In practical terms I do think a high price tag would keep that to a minimum. If it effects the whole squad as you suggests and at the price you suggest their really needs to be a down side. Its too much of a game changer, you are effectively negating some of the benefits of heavy weapons. They already have good armor saves and invulnerable saves, I don't think they need to be more survivable in this way.

**Unholy_Martyr**

Just like most of the powers have specific times that they can be used in the current codex. With this respect, it can only be used in Close Combat and cannot be used in 2 consecutive turns. Something similar to the Ymargl Genestealers rules.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

I agree with having a lance weapon but I quite like the psycannon as it is,
I was thinking it would probably have to be short range 'if' the teleport around the board was allowed.

Or probably a new weapon

**aka_mythos**

Why would teleporting around the board be allowed? Teleporters take up a lot of space on marine ships and are one way. The Eldar are the only ones to master that type of technology. Unless we're talking another psyker power.

**grayspark**

Teleporters take up a GIGANTIC amount of space...

What I could believe is the Terminators or PAGK being teleported back up (as happens in the fluff frequently after purging a planet) and then in a turn or two being able to teleport back down.

It mentions in the Blood Angel's Codex that the Storm Raven was first used by the Grey Knights. It'd be interesting to use that with Grey Knights. Maybe it's even being stuck in the new Inquisition Codex coming out in a few months (And yes it is coming out, I asked the store manager at the Battle Bunker)

**ductvader**

aka_mythos wrote:
 Chaplain
 Grey Knight Command Squad
-Amplifies commanders Psychic power

 Daemonhost
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
 Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator
 Ironclad Dreadnought
-May take 2 nemesis force fist
-May take a psycannon in place of Meltagun
-Hurricane bolter equipped with psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Venerable Dreadnought
-May take a nemesis force fist
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" psycannon
-May take a twinlinked "Heavy" Incinerator

 Grey Knights
-storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-may pay 35pts to deep strike
 Shield Bearers (Replace Stormtroopers) (10pts)
- Las-Glaive
--Shooting: R24 S3 AP4 Assault 2, Rending
--Close Combat: +1S Rending
-Combat Shield: 5+ Inv Save
-(0-4) Thermic Lance (10-15pts)
-- Shooting: R12 S8 AP1 (Always receives +2d6 Armor Pen)
-- Close Combat: Power Weapon
 Exorcists Marine Contingent (21pts)
- Standard Marine weapons options
- Bolters have psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
- Demonic Essence (5+ Inv)
- Demonic Speed (roll 2d6, pick highest, for running)

Fast Attack
 Null Pillar
-Drop Pod
-Scrambles deepstriking within 24”
-Daemons become unstable
-Twin-linked Psycannons
 Grey Knight Cataphract (Jet Bikes)
-Stormbolter on Jet bike (instead of arm)
-Storm bolters equipped with psy-bolts (ignores inv saves).
-(0-2) may be upgraded with psycannons or incinerators
 Valkyrie Vengeance
- 2x Vortex Missiles (additional option)
- Door mounted Psy-cannons

Heavy Support
 Grey Knight Purgation Squad
-Add Heavy Incinerator
-Add heavy psycannon
 Land Raider
 Land Raider Crusader
-Hurricane Bolters fires, psy-bolt (ignores inv saves).
 Land Raider Redeemer
 Hellstorm Cannon (Thunderfire Cannon)
- Large ordnance template
- Range 60
- Ignores Inv Saves

I think some of the upgrade options would be replaced with distinctively Grey Knight ones. Such as Land Raiders being able to take "heavy incinerators" in place of a pintle multimelta.

My concept for the "Null Pillar" is its effectively a drop pod turned reliquary that transports a chunck of material identical to what composes the pillars on Cadia that hold back the eye of terror from spreading.

The Excorcists marines are in there as a fluffier alternative to having the "allied" and inducted marine unit options. The Exocrcists being the science experminent of the Grey Knights would easily be seen along side and at their beckon call.

The Cataphract, are Grey Knight jet bikers. They make for what I think is a fluffy way of giving the Grey Knights a single fast attack choice that takes the places of Bikes, Jump Packs, landspeeders all in one unit.

For the stormtroopers, I looked at the unit and their intended function. As they're written in the IG codex I don't believe they'd make much sense along side an army that fights units who are predominantly invulnerable save without much in the way of 3+ saves. Their point cost is too high at that, making them worthless even as cannon fodder. I thought they should be a bit more specific to the daemonhunter cause. Really they're a bit of a place holder, but get the point across.

I don't believe allied units are appropriate in a list meant to emphasize the Grey Knights. For their list to stand on its own, they need to not be dependent on taking allies to deal with non-daemon armies.

So what do you think?

I deleted what I thought was obvious.

You forgot to add that they will get a Storm Raven.

Chaplain...yes...and he will make SW powers look like nothing...as well he should.
A command Squad...would not amplify any kind of psychic power...only the terminators are known to do this.

Grey Knights will not fight alongside a Daemonhost.

Nemesis Fist makes sense from the standpoint that the model pretty much already exists.

Heavy incinerator=flamestorm incinerator

heavy psycannon?...doubt it

new dreads...maybe...I really don't care if there are...they should have the most minor role out there in GK.

All Grey Knights have psy-bolts...whoever came up with this originally is an idiot...because GW will not release a codex that autowins against another codex.

Paying to deepstrike...makes sense...I would prefer to have deep striking knights that can assault that turn.
or Knights that can deepstriek around the board and not count as moving.

The shield bearers are cool...but the knights don't train their own normal humans...all they have for humans are mind wiped crews.

Something would have to be inquisitioned.

Excorsist marines...if they exist...the knights should have to kill these guys first for being demonic...and then go about fighting the enemy

recreating instability...awesome

jetbikes...goodness i hope so...but i doubt it with a passion

more likely to get a thunderhawk than a valkerie

redeemer is happening

hellstorm cannon?....grey knights are not marines...or wolves or angels...they're better than that...they are the elite of the elite...scre copycot tactics

i like the idea of an inquisitor paying for an orbital strike that he can target on a piece of terrain each turn...given LOS

**aka_mythos**

ductvader wrote:
I deleted what I thought was obvious.

You forgot to add that they will get a Storm Raven.
...
more likely to get a thunderhawk than a valkerie

I wrote this a while ago, before anyone knew of the Storm Raven's fluff, or that it even existed. I think the Storm Raven is in the Valkyrie is not.

ductvader wrote:
Chaplain...yes...and he will make SW powers look like nothing...as well he should.
A command Squad...would not amplify any kind of psychic power...only the terminators are known to do this.

I really don't know how the Chaplain and librarian aspect will be worked out. I think that in the GK there would be so much overlap that there would a unique title for the marine that effectively fills both roles.

ductvader wrote:
Grey Knights will not fight alongside a Daemonhost.
...
Excorsist marines...if they exist...the knights should have to kill these guys first for being demonic...and then go about fighting the enemy

I lumped these two together... the GW established fluff for the Exorcist Marines was that they were created by the Grey Knights in an attempt to supplement the GK's forces. That they were successful but with a high burnout rate. Exorcist Marines are marine daemonhosts. If the GK are willing to make and use space marine Daemonhosts, I think they'd be willing to use regular daemonhosts.

**ductvader**

Brother Durendin would work as the Librarian esque character.

You literally cannot field Grey Knights and Daemonhosts in the same army. The codex does not allow it.

**aka_mythos**

Seeing as this is the proposed rules forum it doesn't have to follow the current codex.

GW isn't likely to eliminatre any models in a new Grey Knight codex, just re-emphasize it away from inquisition. This means there would likely be some way to field Daemonhost and as such there would be Daemonhost in a Grey Knight army. I was merely explaining a rationale that you could use to justify their presence.

**bubblesflood**

Think grey knight chaplain would be ace.
Sounds very cool and hard in the Greey Knights books so was looking to kit bash one to use as grandmaster but might just wait for a model.

**Chaoslordx13**

I would like my daemons to have a chance of actually doing something, grey knights do not rip apart daemons apart like cheese, they are trained and given equipment that allows them a good chance of winning by getting rid of daemons advantages. For sake of table top, give them something to disrupt deep striking near them, keep incinerators and psycannons. And instability should stay gone, i would rather my entire army not collapse itself. Hell, grey knights can take land raiders. That right there, is a big middle finger to us daemons :(

**aka_mythos**

Grey Knights are the embodiement of middle finger... they are the Emperor's Middle Finger! (all the other members were taken).

**ductvader**

When you need to ram an army down someone's throat and make sure they choke on it...send in the Knights...

GK should change how Daemons play...heck...even make them walk on the board (to represent GKs coming to a pre-existing daemon infestation...

Daemons should have to struggle against GK.

**aka_mythos**

I think the trade off between daemon vs. Grey Knights and how it impacts that combination... should come down to Daemons being instable, but in return get rage and increased numbers of attacks. That would limit daemon's staying power but would really make initial assualts high in volume of attacks. Those high volume of attacks really end up being the biggest weakness of an army with so few total wounds with good saves. The game would boil down to a high paced game of attrition. That seems appropriate for daemons and gk.

**phantommaster**

aka_mythos wrote:Why would teleporting around the board be allowed? Teleporters take up a lot of space on marine ships and are one way. The Eldar are the only ones to master that type of technology. Unless we're talking another psyker power.

Necrons have also mastered it and the Inquisition are supposed to be on the pinnacle of Imperial technology so I don't see why you couldn't do this but I would incur some sort of penalty on it.

Think grey knight chaplain would be ace.
Sounds very cool and hard in the Greey Knights books so was looking to kit bash one to use as grandmaster but might just wait for a model.

I absolutely agree this would be a great idea.

Well...if the Grey Knights would have any version of a transport I would say that it would be in the form of the Storm Raven Gunship. Really, the only vehicles in the Army should be Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. The Grey Knights are the Emperor's favorites in every regard. Their gene seed comes from the Emperor himself so that pretty much means whatever they want, they get.

In terms of universal rules, I would say go with the following:

Fearless, Feal No Pain, and MAYBE Preferred Enemy against Daemons. Keep the Shrouding and almost everything else. Also, allow the whole army to Deep Strike as well.

These don't really seem too far off base, especially if you keep their Stats similar to what they have currently.

In terms of what weapons they have, a subtle change that could make a huge difference if giving the Psycannon the following profile:

24" S 6 AP 4 Assault 3

36" S 8 AP 1 Heavy 1,Lance

Both Ignore Invulnerable Saves

The idea of Eternal Warrior being a Psychic Power...I think that should be something that ANY Grey Knight can take. Something to replace one of the useless psychic powers that are listed: For example: Something that does Eternal Warrior for the Squad +20 pts. So on and so fourth, Grey Knight Grand Masters should have Eternal Warrior anyway just for the simple fact that they have survived fighting and banishing hundreds if not thousands of Daemons. Additionally, they aren't just going after the little fish, they would go toe to toe with Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes like a Space Marine Captain would go toe to toe with a Chaos Lord.

I like those special rules but get rid of feel no pain. Also keep the Psycannon the way it is. And make the Grand Master have eternal warrior and WS6 plus I6.

I would personally like to keep the Nemesis Force weapon the way it is but a Flamestorm Incinerator would be cool.

EDIT: The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

**AlmightyWalrus**

phantommaster wrote:The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

True. Too bad that the Grey Knights invented them

.

**ductvader**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
phantommaster wrote:The Blood Angels will not share the designs of the Stormraven or Baal Predator to ANYONE.

True. Too bad that the Grey Knights invented them .

Haha...read the BA Dex...goodness...

**bubblesflood**

Codex says Stormraven used almost exclusivly by grey knights and blood angels.
Baal Predator and its design are BA exclusives as they keep the STC away from everyone.

**Slarg232**

Unholy_Martyr wrote: Feal No Pain

An entire army with FNP? That would be way too overpowered. Maybe as an expensive upgrade, but not just a standard Unniversal Special Rule.

**radical bob**

I think, technically speaking, there are two armies already with FNP across the board: Nurgle & Blood Angels.

I don't want Grey Knights to be broken, but in light of some of the more recent Codices, I think it will be hard to make them reach the point where we all say "now that's just silly" when compared point-for-point.