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Hey all!

I haven't yet played DE but everything is assembled and starting getting painted. I was just reviewing my 1850 list and realized its 1854. I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out what to drop for five points without significantly gimping myself, but came up blank. There's also a 1500 point tournament this weekend that I'm going to beg my wife to let me attend, and I need to turn this 1850 into 1500.

That's what I need help with (feel free to double check my points)


HQ1:
Archon (60)
Combat Drugs (25)
T.Helm (5)
Shadow Field (25)
Punisher (20)
Animus Vitae (15)
1x Warrior (8)
5x Incubi (125)
Raider (55)

HQ2:
Haemonculus x2 (50)
Scissorhand / Destructor x2 (40)

Troop 1 - 6: Raider squads 105 points apiece, Total 630 points,
Warriors x5
Dark lance
Raider

Fast Attack:
Reaver Jetbikes x3 (75)
Blaster x2 (20)

Elite1 & 2: Identical.

6x Wyches (72)
Succubus (8)
Agonizer (20)
Wych Weapons (6)
Blaster x2 (10)
Plasma Grenades (12)
Raider (55)

Heavy Support 1, 2 & 3: Identical.

Ravager with 3x Disintegrator (120)

-----------------------------------
And there we go with 1854 points. I need to drop 4 points to 1850 somehow, or rearrange, reconfigure somehow. Also need to make this a 1500 point list.

HELP!

Drop the warrior in the HQ retinue, and pick up plasma grenades on the Heamons.



Done!



1500 point list one the way I have to get to my comp with army builder.

That warrior existed to absorb a powerfist hit and keep Incubi alive - do you not think that's critical?

Unless it is a 10 man squad the powerfist will be dead before he gets to swing, and even then I would chance the 2+ inv save on the lord. 1/6 chance to die. Live a little! The way I see it is that it is one more easy kill for combat res.

1500 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster

1 Lelith Hesperax @ 248 pts (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Shadow Field)
4 Wych Retinue (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Horrorfex)

5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

1 Ravager @ 120 pts (Disentegrator x3)

1 Ravager @ 120 pts (Disentegrator x3)

1 Ravager @ 120 pts (Disentegrator x3)

6 Wyches @ 196 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Horrorfex)

6 Wyches @ 196 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Horrorfex)

5 Wyches @ 182 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Horrorfex)


Total Roster Cost: 1497



Its a bit different from my usual list but it is dynamite to play! Always choose 12" assault range on Lilith and her squad. A first turn assault is amazing.

Thanks for putting the time into building that 1500 point list. I've sort of decided to go with a kabal instead of a wych cult - you just built a wych cult didn't you? With three troop choices and three elite choices, would it matter which you you run it? The difference I guess being Lelith vs Archon, and their retinues.

Yup the only difference is lilith. She is a bomb in 1500 points. Also by running this list it makes the wyches hold objectives instead of the warriors.


If you don't want to run it just drop out a wych squad for another warrior squad and make lilith into an archon with icubi.

I played this tonight - my first time ever.

Capture and Control, dawn of war. I went first, put nothing on the table. Enemy put down a land raider and a 10 man tac squad onto his objective, kept all his bikes, speeder, etc in reserve.

I'll skip the details, but the bulk of it is this: My entire army except for the devestators fired at his land raider for two turns. All I did was immobilize it and stun it a few times on turn 1, and a weapon destroyed result on turn 2. My archon rolled three powers and took a wound, but killed half the marines, and the succubus killed the rest.

His land raider PotMS and used his assault cannon to wipe out my bikes, teaching me that the bikes need to not be out in the open. They laid two blasters into the land raider before dying with no result. My opponent got one out of six units for reserves, and the whole game went really dumbly....but with a single land raider on the table and a dreadnought later, and so many dark lances, I absolutely can't believe that I did...nothing.

Dashofpepper wrote:I played this tonight - my first time ever.

Capture and Control, dawn of war. I went first, put nothing on the table. Enemy put down a land raider and a 10 man tac squad onto his objective, kept all his bikes, speeder, etc in reserve.

I'll skip the details, but the bulk of it is this: My entire army except for the devestators fired at his land raider for two turns. All I did was immobilize it and stun it a few times on turn 1, and a weapon destroyed result on turn 2. My archon rolled three powers and took a wound, but killed half the marines, and the succubus killed the rest.

His land raider PotMS and used his assault cannon to wipe out my bikes, teaching me that the bikes need to not be out in the open. They laid two blasters into the land raider before dying with no result. My opponent got one out of six units for reserves, and the whole game went really dumbly....but with a single land raider on the table and a dreadnought later, and so many dark lances, I absolutely can't believe that I did...nothing.

bad rolls. I had a game in my last 2500 pt tourney where I blew off a LR's weapons and immobilized it on T2... 20 shots, 12 or so hits, and I didn't get even 1 wrecked -_-

I like where Clthomps is going with his list advice. The ablative wound is great - but since there's not exactly a lot of fat on that list it's probably where it should be cut.

Tough luck on that Landraider - overall how did the army treat you? DE have a stiff learning curve it is said, and coming from Orks there are a few new habits to learn. Did you feel your speed was an asset? How did the Lances in Raiders work for you? Were you able to sit still with them, or did you keep feeling a need to shift them around?

How'd the Archon perform after eating a Tac squad? (and good lord, 3 drug options? Someone was excited about their new wargear)


I really like Clthomps Wych list - but if you want to stay Kabal and build it within your current list you can try the following;

Take your current 1850 list
Drop both RJB squads.
Turn the Archon into a Dracon
Then you have a couple fine point tunings. You can opt to drop grenades from your Wyches, drop a Haemy, turn a Ravager from a 3 Dissie into a 3 Lance, ect.

I'd probably drop a Haemy and maybe build back some of the extra points on some Horrorfexes, but I'm a big sucker for Horrorfexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:bad rolls. I had a game in my last 2500 pt tourney where I blew off a LR's weapons and immobilized it on T2... 20 shots, 12 or so hits, and I didn't get even 1 wrecked -_-

Yeah, bad and good luck on penetrates can make vehicles either stupid hard to kill or pathetically easy.
Once played a friendly FLGS tournament where I ended up playing a friend of mine twice - once as the first match and once for the finals. Blew up his landraider with my first Dark Lance shot of the game - both games.
I've also had a couple games where there's a LR or Falcon that just sort of limps around the entire game absorbing damage and never going away.

Eh, tonight wasn't a good judge of my abilities with the DE - a friend of mine and his dad play 40k; his dad is a recent addition to the hobby and quite new; I had them over to the house tonight and ended up mostly working on teaching his dad about rolls, the order of things, etc while flipping through the DE codex trying to figure out how to make it work.

I had the archon and incubi, in addition to a wych squad assault a 10 man tac squad, and we never even made it to the wyches, let alone the incubi. The archon is STR3...with a punisher he goes to STR4; I gave him +1 STR for a drug to get +5, gave him +1 attack, and the ability to reroll all hits in close combat.

How do you CHOOSE?!? =p So many awesome things!

My raiders mostly stayed still and fired at things after turn1. They moved onto the table turn1 (Dawn of War) and opened up turn2...

Ravagers can move 6" and fire all weapons right? Raiders can move 6" and fire all (in theory, only 1 weapon aboard) or 12" and fire one right?

Dashofpepper wrote:I had the archon and incubi, in addition to a wych squad assault a 10 man tac squad, and we never even made it to the wyches, let alone the incubi. The archon is STR3...with a punisher he goes to STR4; I gave him +1 STR for a drug to get +5, gave him +1 attack, and the ability to reroll all hits in close combat.

That's serious overkill, you are right (I hadn't realized the Wyches were in on that action as well). A ten man tac squad meeting an archon and 5 incubi is pretty much going away without even getting a swing - and you're right, sometimes the archon will pretty much do it on his own, that guy is a beast of war.

How do you CHOOSE?!? =p So many awesome things!

It's usually a basic breakdown of what you're attacking and with what. I usually only ever take two drugs unless I'm going into a serious brawl. With a Punisher/T.Helm combo I will generally take +1 Str and re-roll all misses. Depending on my opponent's toughness (guardsmen, Tau) I might just opt for +1 A instead of +1 Str. Strike first is pretty obvious when you need it, as is the 12" charge (which is never when with Incubi). If I'm armed with an Agoniser I basically always take +1 Attack and re-roll misses (though lately I can't even remember when I last had an Archon or Dracon with an Agoniser). I also sometimes take the attack and re-roll boost if I'm on a RJB as then I already have a +1 Str (I'm usually content to wound on threes).

Ravagers can move 6" and fire all weapons right? Raiders can move 6" and fire all (in theory, only 1 weapon aboard) or 12" and fire one right?

Correct on both counts - Like Raiders; Ravagers can also move 12" and fire one weapon and all defensive weapons (which sometimes counts low power Dissie shots, though I've played at events that ruled they didn't count as defensive). They are both Fast Skimmer vehicles and share the movement and shooting rules. 6" Raider movement becomes more important if you're fielding Gunboats, as that will then allow the passengers to fire as well.

It was just that moving my ravagers and firing all their weapons was a bit weird. I'll remember the low-power disintegrator shot; it *does* count as a defensive weapon.

I've also never had BS4 before in an army, which is taking some getting used to.

Dashofpepper wrote:It was just that moving my ravagers and firing all their weapons was a bit weird.

Weird but awesome, of course. For me weird is all these other races that can't figure out how good it is to have multiple big guns on fast vehicles.

I'll remember the low-power disintegrator shot; it *does* count as a defensive weapon.

I certainly agree with you - but have had some TOs quite strongly disagree with me, so I simply offered the caveat that it doesn't always fly.

my suggestion would be to drop the animus vitae and punisher for an agonizer and pistol. Yes potentially STR 6 is great but I'd still rather have and auto wound on 4+ with +1 attack and + reroll miss combat drugs instead of takign the risky 3rd +1 str. THat frees up some points. Also I'm a huge fan of the terrorfex.

Vitae nets you WS and Str. I have been in a number of games were that WS was key.

I would still go with my suggestion.

I've yet to be in a situation where +1 WS on an Archon was key (especially when I have drugs and can take +1 WS whenever I feel like it). That said - for a Punisher Lord additional Str can really add to your killing potential.

I don't recommend an Agoniser if you're going to have him running with Incubi - as what an Agoniser Lord wants to fight is usually not what Incubi want to fight, and they're too expensive to drag into a brawl with a Wraithlord or something - that's Wych or Lance work.

Thor665 wrote:I've yet to be in a situation where +1 WS on an Archon was key (especially when I have drugs and can take +1 WS whenever I feel like it). That said - for a Punisher Lord additional Str can really add to your killing potential.

I don't recommend an Agoniser if you're going to have him running with Incubi - as what an Agoniser Lord wants to fight is usually not what Incubi want to fight, and they're too expensive to drag into a brawl with a Wraithlord or something - that's Wych or Lance work.

Auugh! I'm confused now. :( Why doesn't an agonizer lord want to fight what incubi want to fight? With a WS6 or 7, anticipate needing 3+ to hit, and he auto-wounds on 4+. He'd be great for beating on MCs. He'll be striking first against a MC, and the incubi will go before it too...where's the downside?

I'm really confused about wargear now. An archon has a base STR3. I can give him a punisher for STR4, and he has a T.Helm, for +1 attack. Thor, you said that you typically take +1 STR and re-roll misses, but sometimes will go for +1A instead. With an animus vitae I can get +1 WS, +1STR AFTer the first round of combat.

So the lord is now STR5 without drugs, 3 attacks base, +1 for T.Helm, +1 on the charge, potential +1 from drugs....6 attacks on the charge, right?

The agonizer means I stay at S3, but that my STR is irrelevant. With a T.Helm for +1 attack (right?) Or do I give him a 1 point pistol?

So the Punisher archon can potentially need 3+ or even 2+ (with drugs) against a T4 model, while an agonizer lord always needs a 4+ against any model regardless of toughness. Now I just don't know what to do. ><

Wow. Lots of questions there. Let's see if I can help...

Dashofpepper wrote:Why doesn't an agonizer lord want to fight what incubi want to fight? With a WS6 or 7, anticipate needing 3+ to hit, and he auto-wounds on 4+. He'd be great for beating on MCs. He'll be striking first against a MC, and the incubi will go before it too...where's the downside?

Depends on the Monstrous Creature of course - an Avatar will strike before Incubi. But here's my basic breakdown;

First off with +1 A and re-roll misses your Lord will swing 6 times, hitting with...gads, math (hitting on a 3+ will hit 4, re-roll 2 and hit an additional 1.something - let's say 5 hits to spare my sanity. He will then wound with 2.5 which might kill the MC if it has no invulnerable and 3 or less wounds) Incubi are Str 4, so though they'll strike first they are not highly likely to wound most MCs (needing 5+, 6+ or just being unable to do it at all). Also, they have 3+ armor saves, which for DE makes them very durable - except that most MCs ignore armor saves. Incubi still have toughness 3, just like any DE. Therefore you are taking a very expensive unit that is expensive in part because of their armor save, and putting them in against a creature that can ignore the armor save and wound them very easily while they (Incubi) will have a difficult to impossible task of putting wounds onto it in return. So whenever you fight a MC basically you are accepting that it's the Archon's job to kill it, and the (expensive) Incubi are there as ablative wounds.

An Agoniser likes to fight MCs, because it doesn't care how high their toughness is. It is often found on Wyches as well, and Wyches have invulnerable saves which helps them survive versus a MC. This makes Wyches both a cheaper option vs. MCs and an option better built to inflict damage on them. Now, an Agoniser Lord can be quite good at hunting MCs. He will hit a lot and will wound 50% of the time barring invulnerable saves. If the MC happens to survive Lords will have a 2++ to help them absob any hits the MC manages to land. Incubi though, excel at sawing through troops with good armor or mauling other elite h2h options. They want to fight things with around 4 toughness so they can maximize the amount of wounds they can do, and like to be able to use their very good armor save in case anyone swings back and hits. An Agoniser, due to its limitation of wounding 50% can weaken your effectiveness when cutting through toughness 4 models.

Therefore an Agoniser Lord is optimal on his own, or with Wyches in order to hunt high toughness MCs and other such threats. Therefore I feel it is optimal to have a Punisher Lord with Incubi, a he can excel at sawing through T4 models while an Agoniser Lord will generate less damage due to an inability to ever wound on a 3+. So, generally speaking I put a punisher Lord in with Incubi and tend not to assault any MC with a toughness over 6 with Incubi - and really even at toughness 6 I am aware that I'm betting my Lord can kill what I'm fighting. (I do break this rule and assault high toughness things with a Incubi retinue, but it's important to understand what rule you're breaking and why when you do so) To my mind putting an Agonsier into an Incubi squad is weakening what the squad is best at in the interest of making it more generalized and adaptable. But DE have enough speed that I see no reason you cannot dictate whether or not a Lord and Incubi have to fight an MC or not, so I see no reason to lessen the squad's focus of killing t4 units by floating in an Agoniser.

I'm really confused about wargear now. An archon has a base STR3. I can give him a punisher for STR4, and he has a T.Helm, for +1 attack. Thor, you said that you typically take +1 STR and re-roll misses, but sometimes will go for +1A instead. With an animus vitae I can get +1 WS, +1STR AFTer the first round of combat.

Mostly correct. An Animus Vitae will give you the stat boost once you capture slaves with that unit. Slave capturing is in the codex on page 4 in the shaded box. Be aware that you can go entire battles and never manage to trigger the Animus.

So the lord is now STR5 without drugs, 3 attacks base, +1 for T.Helm, +1 on the charge, potential +1 from drugs....6 attacks on the charge, right?

Correct. (you can also equip your Archon on a RJB to get an inherent +1 Str at the start of the game, and then add Punisher and drugs.

The agonizer means I stay at S3, but that my STR is irrelevant. With a T.Helm for +1 attack (right?) Or do I give him a 1 point pistol?

Tormentor Helm = pistol on your head. If you have the spare hand to hold a pistol never pay for the fancy hat - they have the same effect. Since the Punisher (and gakky hellglaive) are two handed weapons, they benefit from the T.Helm. An Agoniser can just use a splinter pistol.

So the Punisher archon can potentially need 3+ or even 2+ (with drugs) against a T4 model, while an agonizer lord always needs a 4+ against any model regardless of toughness. Now I just don't know what to do. ><

You're correct on this assessment as well. My basic advice, as stated above - is to take A Punisher Lord with Incubi or an Agoniser Lord with Wyches.

Okies, thanks for that.

My wyches have a succubus with an agonizer, so they're my MC killers. I'll leave the lord with a punisher and Tormentor Helm.